Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Does anyone use the E.L.F. (endless loop film system)?

This is topic Does anyone use the E.L.F. (endless loop film system)? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Kristin Wahlund (Member # 922) on 07-26-2001, 02:55 AM:

i worked at this ancient theatre, well not really, but we used this weird system where you tread your movie throgh a funny arm and connect it to its self so you could start it by a button down at the box office. its a very bad system and it scratches prints badly. its really quite old and i was just wondering if anyone out there uses this system.... and what they think of it of course. i know thati hae had many a print fall to the floor, melt and knot and a whole list of fun things that caan happen. i wanted to know if any one understands my frustrations.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 07-26-2001, 04:39 AM:

Hi Kristin,

In the chain where I work we have a theater with an endloop system. I used it just few times to understand how it works just in case of problems.
I agree with you: is my opinion that the system scratches the film, depending of the type of the print. I noted that with some type of print static is a problem (with or without air conditioning, with or without the cleaner with anti-static) and while the print is jamming into the brain, it touchs itself continuously: I hnoted that after few shows little scratches appear. I beleive that a bit of dust between folder of print could create these type of scratches. For Pearl Harbor, for example, we didn't have any problem with static and the film entered the core perfectly: after one month of shows the print was in perfect conditions.

Bye
Antonio

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-26-2001, 09:20 AM:

Here is a link:
http://www.christieinc.com/elf.htm

The E.L.F. platter received a Technical Achievement
Award (Academy certificate)in 1998:

Clark F. Crites for the design and development of the
ELF 1-C Endless Loop Film Transport and storage
system.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Kristin Wahlund (Member # 922) on 07-26-2001, 10:50 AM:

I was told not to put such a long film on the elf because of the risk of the platter not being able to handle so much film. I can't believe you had Pearl Harbor on the elf! I was worried about 2:30 hannibal! I really don't like thelf, because it causes a lot of problems and it cuts down on places to move movies on thursday nights. I usually cancelled shows to make room. Antonio, what theatre chain do you work for? I am currently of Regal Cinemas, formerly of Marcus Theatres.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 07-26-2001, 12:36 PM:

EVIL! EVIL! EVIL! EVIL!

Endless loops are BAD BAD BAD BAD (ok, not as bad as DLP)..... Not only to film itself but to the life of the traditional operators' career. Besides I would find it very impractical to attempt multiple shuffles of screen placements with loops if a couple features bomb and require moving same day.

EVIL! EVIL! EVIL!

rant off...

Aaron

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-26-2001, 03:48 PM:

Why would something like an endless loop system win a technical achievement award, and something like FilmGuard not? Are ELF's really that revolutionizing to the industry?

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 07-29-2001, 05:02 AM:

Back in 1986, Hoyts were about to open their first suburban multiplex (yep, only downtown complexes, suburban twins and drive-ins up until that time).

I worked at the Hoyts Waverley Gardens Twin, a very nice all Kinoton location with capacities of around 500 and 400 respectivly. As a trial for the new upcoming multiplex (Hoyts 8 Chadstone) we trialled a Cinemeccanica endless loop system mounted onto the top plate of the Kinoton ST 200. The system worked very well, under the supervision of two full time licenced projectionists. The main drawback being that we had to unthread after each session to clean the projector! This obviously defeated the purpose. We would have welcomed the installation of two sets of PTR's back then.

I recall running Aliens and Leagal Eagles without any scratching or problems until a well-used and oiled print of Crocodile Dundee came back for a session. Well there was no session, once this was loaded into the system it just would not run. Oil on film has the opposite effect to its intended purpose, instead of being a lubricant it acts as an adhesive! The session was abandoned. The unit was trialled for a few more months but ultimately packed back up.

In a remote location, under the guidence of a skilled projectionist, with the correct cleaning system, they can and do work well, but they will never take over the business as many feared.

Hoyts 8 Chadstone opened later that year with four projectionists per shift and no Endless Loop Systems.

David Kilderry

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-29-2001, 09:24 AM:

The cinemecanica also used a anti static bar as well on most of there units.
The whole idea was about as flawed as most of the business models for e cinema

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 07-29-2001, 02:33 PM:

Hi, y'all;

Strong makes an Endless Loop Platter System and, after an admittedly long learning curve, I think the system works pretty well. We have a few in Korea, believe it or not, among a few other places in the owrld as well as the US. Once the atmosphere is stabilized (i.e., some amount of humidity and temperature control) they've operated very reliably even overseas.

Would I put one in my theatre? Only in the rarest of circumstances or applications. Regardless of what anyone says, there is abrasian from film-to-film contact -- it's the nature of the beast as the outer diameter is "scalloped" down into a smaller diameter. There are things we've done to minimize the problem but it's still there, on anybody's endless loop. I think that damage does show up after x-many runs depending on a lot of factors -- mostly condition and cleanliness of the film and ambient factors in the booth.

I look at a Loop as another step in automation -- a tool and nothing more. As far as I am concerned it does NOT replace a projectionist. In fact, it requires a higher skill level.

Pat

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-29-2001, 06:12 PM:

Why, then, would anyone want an endless loop platter system? According to the information in this thread, it a) doesn't improve presentation quality and b) doesn't eliminate the need for a skilled projectionist. Further, it is probably safe to assume that they are more expensive than conventional film-transport systems (reels, towers, or "normal" platters). I just don't understand how a theatre owner could justify spending money on something like this.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-29-2001, 06:24 PM:

Why, then, would anyone want an endless loop platter system? Because the E.L.F. platter received a Technical Achievement Award (Academy certificate)in 1998!

Personally I'd love to play with one, but I can't imagine it being as good of a means to transport film when compared to a normal platter. Heck, even running a lengthy engagement on 2000' reels would probably be better. ( to Steve)

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 07-29-2001, 07:14 PM:

IMO, the original selling point of the endless loop platter was to combine them with a timer-based automation system, thus eliminating the need for a traditional projectionist. Since this turned out not to be the case in reality (for the reasons Pat and Scott mentioned above) they have never really caught on. Had they done so, we would have them everywhere.

Aaron

Posted by Kristin Wahlund (Member # 922) on 07-29-2001, 09:29 PM:

Basically, they cause more trouble than they are worth. They are great hen they work properly. But that is so rare.

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 07-29-2001, 11:40 PM:

I think in order to have a better ELF system you have to learn
studying the working innards of an 8 track tape cartridge.
try visiting www.8trackheaven.com I temporarily conveted
a record changer turntable into an 8 millimeter film platter
by taking the spools from inside two 8 track cartridges and
placing one inverted on top of the other. I had to use a variable
transformer with the turntable motor for correct payout.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-30-2001, 12:27 PM:

An interesting sidenote to this discussion is the projection system for Super-8 feature-length films that was used on commercial aircraft for many years. The system used a continuous loop cartridge of a Super-8 print having optical sound, and was based on the Technicolor Super-8 looped cartridge projector. Since the film convolutions needed to "slip" past each other in the cartridge, a special Teflon-based lubricant (DuPont VYDAX) needed to be used. The system was marketed and maintained by Transcom in Costa Mesa CA, which is now a Sony subsidiary.
http://diana.swiftlytilting.com/super8.html

My experience with the system is that it was usually more reliable and offered better image quality than some of the video in-flight movie systems of today.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 07-30-2001, 01:41 PM:

Oh, yeah... I remember those things. My high school had a bunch. The cartridge case was clear plastic; you could see the film bouncing and flopping around... rarly saw one jam though. But, they were noisy (not the cartridge, just the projector.) Hard to listen to, "Your Earth and You; Tectonic Plate Movement" even with headphones.

Posted by Kyle Connolly (Member # 827) on 07-30-2001, 03:29 PM:

This may sound like a stupid question, but how does an Endless Loop Platter work? The pictures on the Christie Site don't really help.

If anyone has pictures or diagrams of how it works it would be appreciated.

Thanks

Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 07-30-2001, 03:36 PM:

Kyle, Go to the following link for a better picture of a Kinoton Endless loop platter. http://www.blsi.com/kinoton/st2000.htm