This is topic ErneMann Projector Opinions in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Freddie Dobbs (Member # 915) on 08-01-2001, 08:50 PM:
I am looking into purchasing Ernemann projectors for a client, anybody have any input about them?
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-01-2001, 09:10 PM:
I have a very high opinion of the machine. But it requires respect of the operator to maximise its potential
There lamphouse and servor reel system is also very good
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 08-01-2001, 09:13 PM:
While it was only for a short time, I was impressed with what I saw.
Posted by Keith Madden (Member # 910) on 08-01-2001, 10:04 PM:
The Sundance Film Festival bought a bunch of the 16/35 combo machines with the sidewinder 12000 foot reels. Too early to see how well they'll hold up over time. Lens barrels are awfully soft and tend to bugger up easily. A few other problems reported with bushings and electrical connectors for the 'Laser' exciter supply. The felt covered metal tension bands will get mangled easily if careless. Lamphouse hand dowser will crash into the shutter if turned back to far. Yet overall produces a steady image and is easy to operate. But if you feel the need to take advantage of the cheap Euro and go German why not just get a Kinoton?
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-01-2001, 10:49 PM:
Check out these topics previously posted here:Raytheon Projectors - 07-17-1999
Ernaman Projectors - 12-16-1999
ERNEMANN 15 - 07-24-2000
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-01-2001, 11:37 PM:
I agree that you should just go Kinoton. They are unbeatable for quality of image, sound and construction. My cost on a PK60D is considerably less than the Simplex Millenneum projector/soundhead combo plus the price includes the Kinoton basement SRD reader(which actually does work well). Its hard to believe that Sundance got suckered into buying the Ernamann stuff. I wonder who mis-led them?
MArk @ GST
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-02-2001, 09:11 AM:
The ernamann is on par with the Kinoton in my opinion. It is designed on the same mind set as most precision devices not to be handled by non professionals. While it is lighter built than some it is no weaker than say the Victoria 5 which is what it is priced against.
Also many of the ernamanns get "customized" which tends to defeat some of the design features. We have several ernamanns in rental and they give almost no grief
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-02-2001, 09:44 AM:
While it may produce results on a par with Kinoton, so will a finely tweeked Century for that matter. IMHO the Kinoton has far less to break down than do most other machines. Also the delrin runners are a big plus and inexpensive to replace. There are a number of Ernnamans out here and they are not very well liked. They are also not an operator friendly machine as they require attention to detail when operating. This does not fit very well into the normal non-professional theatre operating world that we live in today. The Kinoton has a much simpler path to thread up than even a Simplex does and are much more user friendly and durable.
Mark
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-02-2001, 09:59 AM:
Yes but the velvet bands are even more gentle on damaged prints. Also there lamphouse has a slightly higher light output than the Kinoton.
My only complaint I have had with them is the spring that couples the apperture changer and the uneveness of some of the lasers
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-02-2001, 01:01 PM:
Velvet is not really needed on any of the Kinotons due to the fact that the delrin runners, gate, and film all having very similar coeficients of friction. Makes for a very nice setup and no need to mess with velvet. Velvet covered bands are really only needed on metal bands or runners to achieve similar results.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-02-2001, 01:07 PM:
Velvet will improve stability as each hair will act as little brakes in the perfs to control the stoping of the film across the apperture
Labs using Kinotons typically still use velvet rather than the delrin
Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 08-02-2001, 10:45 PM:
The 10 screen Dickinson in my area uses Ernemanns with Big Sky platters & XCN consoles. I wonder what problems Dickinson is
having with these brand new machines.
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 08-03-2001, 12:01 AM:
Dickinson seems to like them. They've been installing them since their 20-plex in metro Tulsa opened in 1998 (and maybe the 14-plex in Wichita the same year).JR Deeter could probably tell us what they think ...
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-03-2001, 12:42 AM:
Stay away from them! They are such a Kinoton wanna be.My experience with them is from the Neumade import version and it isn't a happy one (Gord tells me that part of the problem is the Neumade/Ernemann combination and what Neumade changed)...
But the Laser pick up is a bad joke...just look at the X-Y plot and you will see what I mean...laser light uniformity is also a joke...and even if you overlook all of that....the laser failure rate is still enormous...4 failed lasers in less than one year on 11 screens that we service...and remember, failed lasers mean NO sound...a show stopper.
The wiring looks like a hobbiest did the work...in-line header pins are used extensively for connecting things like the LED and laser power supply.
The digital reader constuction is way too fragile...had one board separate from it's lens tube....alignment is also way too complicated with poorly accessable lock down screws (factory aligned, you know).
The pad rollers tend to unscrew each time the operator threads. The sprockets are not attached to the sprocket shafts with anything other than friction of the outboard hold down screw....no screw, pin key...nothing.
The gate....ah now this is a mixed bag....yes they do have velvet tension bands...you'll be lucky to get 6months out of them too....do they help the steadiness...can't really tell you, the machine picks up a lot of vibration, magnifies it in the turret and projects a shakey image, irrespective of what is going on in the gate! On thing is for damn sure, the velvet bands keep the focal plane far enough away from the aperture plate that a soft and large aperture shadow will result with the typical short focal lengths these days. Oh, and for you auto aperture lovers out there...the tension bands often lightly rest on the aperture plate so when the plate moves, the bands may come into the picture a bit. Is that what you wanted? The aperture plate moves via a bent up paper clip that is driven by a motor that runs into a stall or until the paper clip breaks...which ever comes first.
The turret...one hardly knows where to begin....The minisule lens clamping screws that can fall out (they use genuine tape in shipping to hold them in)...if you adjust the lens offset to compensate for keystoning you might cause the lens to stop rotation as the lens receiver hits the microswitches. The turret support is a joke...see above...it is a vibration magnifier.
The non-op side....could they use smaller pulleys? Oh better yet when you tension the belt the tensioning pully flexes since it is only supported on one side....How much oil is in the projector? The world may never know...they no longer have peep holes and it is sealed up case! The theory is, you drain a liter out, you put a liter in...nice theory, stupid, but a nice theory. The motor support also seems to have flex in it. It seems to set up a nice beat frequency with other vibrations, including the projector drive belt...which gets magnified in the turret!
Nope, anyone that would put in the projectors (11 of them) that I saw in operation isn't interested in presentation, picture or sound...they are pretty pieces of junk.
So put me down for "don't recommend"
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-03-2001, 08:57 AM:
Steve said"The non-op side....could they use smaller pulleys? Oh better yet when you tension the belt the tensioning pully
flexes since it is only supported on one side....How much oil is in the projector? The world may never know...they
no longer have peep holes and it is sealed up case! The theory is, you drain a liter out, you put a liter in...nice
theory, stupid, but a nice theory"
Yes it is sealed so is the Pro35 and the DP75
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-03-2001, 09:31 AM:
Sorry Gord, but you are caught in a web of hate for the Ernamanns here........I totaly agree with Steve on the issue that they are a Kinoton wannabe. The main thing is that they would have to make a copy of the Kinoton to actually be. The fact is that both the Ballantyne and DP75 have oil level indicators(actually similar to each other). Makes life easy
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-03-2001, 05:48 PM:
Did I just read that right? So is the Pro35 (a projector most here ridcule) and the DP75? My DP75s have a drain hose and I can tell you how much oil is in the intermittent at all times...what is your point?Steve
PS...the Ernemanns leak too (as all oil based machines will eventually do to some extent)
------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-03-2001, 06:34 PM:
Still compared to some machines they have given far less grief
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-04-2001, 11:00 AM:
Steve,
Indeed the Pro?-35 and the DP-75/FP series have similar oil level indicators. In the case of the DP/FP series this is a 500.00 molded plastic tube with cap that is at the top of the intermittent. In the case of the Pro?-35 its a nickle worth of cheap plastic tubing. Both however serve the same purpose. I am hardly comparing the two from a quality standpoint though. At any rate its better than not having one as on the Ernnemann.....actually I might take a Pro?-35 over an Ernnemann.Gord, The Pro?-35's don't give much grief till either the Star wheel breaks off, the coupling and outer bearing fails, the shutter gear fails or when it is seal and "O" ring replacement time. Then it is much grief and mess! Oddly the Pro?-35 is an FP-20 ripoff in some respects. It just wasn't done correctly. At any rate the technician is going to make bucket loads of $$ on any of these repairs.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 08-04-2001, 11:49 AM:
Trivia on those hoses with the plastic cap. At one theatre I managed, the projectionist dutifully checked the oil level on the DP75s without thinking about the plastic cap, always found it perfect, and was unpleasantly surprised when the intermittent seized. The cap prevented the true level of the oil from being determined at a glance. Just like water will stay in an inverted cup, the oil remained in the tube at the original fill level. I mention this because, like Steve, this fellow thought he could determine how much oil was in the intermittent casing by looking at the tube. If caps are used, a substantial hole should be added to them to break the vacuum. It might slightly increase the amount of leakage, but that is better than replacing a dry intermittent.
Another problem with this type of "window" on the oil is that the oil in the tube always looks fresh and clean.
Most of the other comments you guys are making are above my head, and you probably already know of this type of problem, but I add it for others who might not.
Posted by Freddie Dobbs (Member # 915) on 08-04-2001, 11:30 PM:
Thanks for your opinions guys you have been a big help..
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-05-2001, 12:40 AM:
Well I like the Pro35 and until the recent closures we had a lot of them inToronto. All in grind houses and even though they were not the easiest machine to service they very rarely gave the amount of grief newer machines have given. Also it is a rip off of the DP75 not the FP20
As for the ernamann I have installed and service many own a couple for rentals and they give no major problems.
Ye the Kinoton is a better overall machine but it too has some things that can cause problems
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-05-2001, 01:14 AM:
I can proudly state that all of the Kinoton's I deal with have their caps removed once put into service or ventholes placed into their caps. Furthermore, filling through the drain hose will prevent sizable air bubbles from giving a false indication....Many a time a tech or an operator filled the intermittent only to find that the level dropped later in the day but no oil puddle....the air bubbles finally came up and the true level was had. Gord, as to Kinoton's having features that you may not like...I think I can safely say that EVERY projector has features that someone may not like. If I really wanted to be mean, I could rattle off some on the more complicated Kinotons but on the PK-60D...you have a VERY simple projector, mechanically...very little to go wrong. Since the gate and soundhead are good, the machine performs well in the presentation department too. You want a beef with the PK-60D as it comes out of the crate? Here's one...they make you PAY if you want a gear reduced inching knob. Thus far their solution has been a "POS" aka position button to step the motor down slowly though it doesn't really work well for setting the intermittent stop for threading...their latest, hot off the press, solution is to make the knob bigger! :-(...They should just get over it and put a proper inching knob on all of the "D" projectors.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-06-2001, 12:27 PM:
When I was speaking of similaraties between the Pro?-35 and Kinotons I am speaking of the coupling and nothing else. That is the only similaritiy between them. The pisser is that the coupling on the Pro?-35 fails regularly(ya gotta stay in buisness ya know) and on the Kinoton it usually lasts at least 20 years or longer. Still I do love collecting on those Pro?-35 repairs.......
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 08-06-2001, 04:53 PM:
On the DP-75 the drain hose clips to a bracket with a "full" line to reveal gearbox level.------------------
Larry Shaw, Chief Weasel (when others aren't in charge)
Boston Light & Sound, Inc.
North American Distributor of Kinoton GmbH
290 North Beacon Street
Boston, MA 02135-1990
Tel: 617-787-3131 x104 Fax: 617-787-4257
E-Mail: larry@blsi.com
Web site: http://www.blsi.com/kinoton