This is topic HELP! Simplex doing strange things! in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-09-2001, 05:52 PM:
The Machine: Simplex 1050 with manual turret (pic available: look up Clover Cinema #2 in the Warehouse)Complaint: It appears that the framing knob has a mind of its own, and when film is running will move its entire travel in a matter of a couple minutes, maybe even faster by now. Adding tension to the film running thru the machine speeds the problem up greatly. The manager is getting antsy and the projectionists are puzzled. (So am I, or I wouldnt be asking for assistance, as I have never seen this problem before) 
Anyone have any ideas?
Aaron
Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 08-09-2001, 06:36 PM:
Loose set screws or retaining clamp? Just guessing, although I have seen something like this before, long, long ago.
Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 08-09-2001, 07:13 PM:
Jerry:: Is that you?
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-09-2001, 08:55 PM:
Could it be that your intermittent is about to take a shit on you?
Does it seem to bind up a bit (on pull down) when you turn it over by hand?
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 08-09-2001, 09:00 PM:
IIRC, there are two retaining springs on the framing cam. I would look there first.I've seen this problem before (on several different makes of projector!), but for the life of me I can't remember exactly what solved the problem on the Simplex.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-09-2001, 09:20 PM:
Aaron, I agree with Adam and Jerry. Give me a yell if that doesn't fix it. Paul
Posted by Matt Basford (Member # 652) on 08-09-2001, 11:44 PM:
I had this same problem about a month ago. I checked the retaining springs which didn't help. I actually found several missing teeth on the drive belt causing it to skip and the tourqe of the skipping caused the intermittent to move. Just something else to look for.
Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 08-09-2001, 11:47 PM:
Bob:: Of course it is me. Who else would have a screw loose?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-10-2001, 12:10 AM:
Aaron,
Your problem is not at all unusual. Just order two new P1709 spring type framing sector clamps form Strong. The new clamps are made from spring steel while the older ones are machined steel and must be adjusted and then locked down. As the framming sector wears at the point that these older clamps contact it can cause uneven wear to the point that when you readjust the machined steel clamp you will be eble to turn it through to a point and when you hit the place on the sector that has not worn much you may not be able to turn it at all. The newer spring steel type will self adjust to what ever the wear pattern may be. Replacement can be a bit tricky and you will have to pull the movement to get at them easily. It is however an easy permanent fix for this problem.
MArk @ GTS
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-10-2001, 02:39 AM:
Thanks for the replies- I am heading up there today to have a closer look at the problem.I do not remember ever feeling the intermittent or anything else in that machines' gear train binding. However an unusual thing was reported to me by the projectionist there: he claims that the framing creep STOPS when the APERTURE PLATE is removed... 
Aaron
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-10-2001, 02:44 AM:
.....probably because the operator had the frame knob jammed against the stop so it couldn't creep.Paul
Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 08-10-2001, 05:27 AM:
Spoiler post for "The Others" removed by moderator at the request of other forum members.
Posted by Larry Davis (Member # 609) on 08-10-2001, 12:41 PM:
Hey Jim,
Thanks for ruining The Others for me. 
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 08-10-2001, 04:47 PM:
There's a spring P1755 and some friction discs P1571 & P2879 on the framing shaft, on the operating side behind the knob.
These resist the intermittent's desire to move up at pulldown as the film tugs through the gate. Increasing gate tension naturally makes this stronger, and apparently so does inserting an aperture plate.
If these parts are bungo the framing will walk during projection.
I think there may be updated parts available, we had this problem a few weeks ago and I recall the tech talking about some newer parts (may be unrelated of course) - call Strong/Ballantyne/Century/Simplex and ask them.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-10-2001, 06:10 PM:
Those disks and spring only serve to seal the framing shaft and also to allow you to push in and rotate the shaft to align the word frame when you are in the center of your set position. Mainly for reference. The springs inside are defniately the problem. Been there done that many times. It was covered here some time back in another posting.
MArk @ GTS
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-10-2001, 07:14 PM:
Thanks for all your help! It appears to have been the framing cam retainers. I bent the top one back into shape ( I could not get at the bottom one) and the framing knob is now rock steady and does not creep. I have ordered new retainers and will change them out at my next service call.Aaron
Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 08-11-2001, 11:33 AM:
Had this problem with an XL when I worked a summer house more years ago than I care to remember. We simply took a wood ruler and wedged it between the framing knob and the base. Never moved again all summer. Not a permanent solution, but effective.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-13-2001, 09:08 PM:
Some of the operators drive me nuts! I ran a booth for 10 hours Saturday, and when I got there, all the framing knobs on the XL's were jammed against the stops. So I reset them all to the center position. Yesterday, I had a call that the projectionist took the "fan blade cover" off to clean the "fan blade" behind it, and could not get the "fan blade cover" back on. When he finally got the "fan blade cover" on, the show finally got underweigh 15 minutes late.
Being afraid he may have removed this "fan blade" that is mounted on this "axle" that sticks out in the back of this "camera", I went over to the theater today to check the shutter timing. Well, come to find out, he did not remove the "fan blade" after all.
But I did notice all the framing knobs were up against the stops once again. No wonder the spring clips get worn out.
Sound familiar? If I encounter this again, the "Fit is probably going to hit the Shan".
Are these guys ever going to learn?
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-14-2001, 07:15 AM:
Paul asked: "Are these guys ever going to learn?"What kind of training has been provided? Are the people the problem, or the management?
The new SMPTE/BKSTS/ITEA Projection Manual is a good first step. Be sure to test them to be sure they learn.
http://www.smpte.org/smpte_store/books/
http://www.bksts.com/Images.PDF
http://www.bksts.com/training/project.htm
http://www.bksts.com/cinetec.htm
If the theatre circuit does not have a good internal training program, consider the program offered by Kodak:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/screencheck/offer.shtml
What training is offered by the local union?
Tune these people into Film-Tech. 
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-14-2001, 12:30 PM:
John, thanks for the tip. It is a new crew. So, I have to display tons of patience, I guess. If I could only get them to read the book....it would be so much nicer. The big problem here is this theater is a manager/operator concept, (a tri-plex at that) and the personnel who run the projectors are also popcorn sales people. This always creates a problem that many of us have to work with somehow.
Paul
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-14-2001, 01:47 PM:
quote:
Being afraid he may have removed this "fan blade" that is mounted on this "axle" that sticks out in the back of this "camera", I went over to the theater today to check the shutter timing.
Paul: I hereby nominate the above as perhaps the funniest sentence to ever appear in the forum...it cracked me up!
Just last night I had a customer tell me on his way out of the theatre "that was really a good tape." 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-14-2001, 09:37 PM:
Thanks, Mike.
Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 08-15-2001, 11:52 AM:
Mark you are right on. Those springs have been known break or even just loose the ability to hold the framing cam tightly.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2001, 03:51 PM:
I used to rebuild X-L's by the droves and always installed new retaining springs no matter what. You have to pull the movement to get at the lower one. After one all day trip just to adjust the old ones in an X-L that I had rebuilt, it just made sense to install new ones. I think they are a buck apiece. Mike, I always love it when someone calls it "The Camera". Just something mysterious about that if you ask me. Perhaps those that refer to it that way are really from another planet. Its always politically correct to tell them that the film was shot using Panavision Projectors and Lenses. This way they leave the booth thinking they have really learned something.
Mark @GTS