Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Changeover cue dots.

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Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 09-16-2001, 05:04 PM:

This week I am showing 2nd run MGMs (Icon Distribution) “Heartbreakers”, a good anamorphic Spanish print from Madrid Film Lab. On screening I thought that the copy had come from a changeover house as the cues were punch hole mutilated with the motor dot on the left hand side and the c/o dot on the right hand side, some reels were both sides of the screen. These were all Lab negative originated in the print, which surely must be considered mutilation and distracting, and not a good example of John P. ‘Film Done Right’. Are cue dots really necessary now ? or should I think that only projectionists notice them anyway.

I was very impressed with the UK release copies of “Cats & Dogs” which were brilliant rock steady, Italian Technicolor prints, even better still with no changeover cue dots.

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 09-16-2001, 06:37 PM:

There are still theatres running changeovers, so there still is a need for the dots.

I also like them when a reel fades out and there is not a clearly marked place for me to cut.
I can just count over 24 frames and cut.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-16-2001, 09:12 PM:

There are probably more changeover houses world wide than platter houses on a global level still so the cue dots from the lab are far better than having a co house mark there own

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 09-16-2001, 11:28 PM:

I think that they're still necessary. It's a good test of how well a house manages its film during the building phase. Too much dirt & scratches around the "dotted" scenes means bad building habits have found their way into the booth, and it's also a good test of whether splice is interrupting the scene's audio.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-17-2001, 02:17 AM:

Personally, I like the change-over cues. When I am sitting in an auditorium proofing a movie that is looking for a place to happen, I use those cues to determine how much more time I have to spend in agony waiting for the end to come.

A couple of years ago, a teen-age friend of mine treated me to a movie "The Matrix". Of course, I didn't want to be rude, so I just sat there counting the reels using the cue sets as a reference. He never knew the difference.

The first five reels really were a drag......but when reel 6 hit, that movie finally started kicking butt.

Funny - I noticed the cues at the end of the sixth reel. I was then hoping it was an 8 reeler...

So, it backfired on me, and I broke down and purchased the DVD.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-17-2001, 02:34 AM:

Absolutely, there a LOT of change over houses still around. Also when you are working with 'art house' material, which could be almost any aspect ratio, sometimes the cue dots can be a useful guide to the correct ratio to screen it in (assumign the lab has put them in the right place!) Not a method I like, but if you've no other information to go on, at least it's a start.

I've just completed what is certainly my smallest change over installation. the booth is 12' wide, 8 ' deep and 6' high. In there I have two Centurys with Super Lume-X. 2 T&R Rectifiers, a shoulder height sound rack, a Rigby horizontal motor rewind table and an air conditioner. We had to have holes cut into the ceilign to allow 6'000 foot spools to be run, the holes were then boxed over above, and had to be carefully positioned to allow for the steelwork of the building roof. I'll take some pictures soon.

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 09-17-2001, 05:07 AM:

Sounds like the problem I had installing my basement booth. I had to mount the 6,000' arms suspended from the joists upside down just ahead of the projectors to fit both them and the film cleaners in. Don't lean over while the film is running, though. You'll get a haircut!

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 09-17-2001, 06:54 AM:

Actually I do miss doing and seeing changeovers. I was quite contented running years ago with 6,000’ spools, and got a great kick out of the Cinemation doing a most perfect changeover! and I did need the cue dots to position the pulses (36 frames in advance). It was only until I was offered a double-sided Westrex Tower with 6 spools, a ½” spindle rewinder & 6k plate at a bargain price of £600.

Until the copy this week changeover cues unless mutilated, have never been a problem to me, and I do see the need for them for the many remaining changeover houses.

Pete, Your latest project must be interesting, I remember seeing a picture where there was insufficient ceiling room, so the 6,000’ spools were mounted side-on from the front of the projection box wall.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-17-2001, 07:19 AM:

I agree with Gordon that it is much better to have the changeover cues printed-in by the lab, than hand-scribed by the theatre. And as long as there are theatres that use changeovers, all prints should have the cues.

If the theatre needs to add special cues (e.g. curtain or lighting cues), they should be unobtrusive, and REMOVED before sending the print on to the next theatre. Likewise, be sure to remove all foil cues used for automation.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-17-2001, 08:45 AM:

Dam straight that was a bargain Bernard!

I once bought a package like that for £50, unfortunately we couldn't get the complete tower out of the building, so we took the motors, control panel etc and left the carcas. Even at that it was still a bargain getting all those spare bits.

I used to put change over cues on with chinagraph, which of course is easily removed. Tabs etc cues I used little white adhesive dots, again easily removed, and with automation, the foil stickers come off easily too.

This little booth I've built is a cracker! We were toying with hanging the spools from the ceiling, but they'd have had to go behind the lamphouse, which wouldn't have worked as the the booth isn't deep enough to allow that. It looks odd as it is, but it works very well indeed.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-17-2001, 08:54 AM:

Keep the cue marks. Hand-scribed cues are ugly and usually not spaced correctly. At least the lab cues are usually standardized and unobtrusive. The motion-picture industry does extend beyond first-run gigaplexes and there are plenty of theatres that are still doing changeovers.

Even with platters or 6000' reels, cue marks are handy when breaking down a print, as they can be used to distinguish between reel changes and repair splices.

There's really no reason at this point to get rid of cue marks and there are plenty of reasons to keep them. If they were horribly obtrusive or if the general public noticed them, I would feel differently.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 09-18-2001, 06:37 AM:

I think cue dots are horribly obtrusive- they always take me out of the movie. If I already know how many reels the movie is, I can't help counting them either.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 09-18-2001, 08:45 AM:

I usually loose count. I use the marks at home for my carbon arc booth. just when you get into the movie, the screen starts to turn purple.

Oh well

Josh

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-18-2001, 11:28 AM:

Josh, that used to happen to me in my carbon-arc days of the late '70s. My boss defined it as the "projectionist leaning out the window" problem (and in the summer, he was usually right...that booth was HOT!).

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-18-2001, 01:06 PM:

Well, Josh, a projectionist is not supposed to watch his own movies. The "Projectionist Leaning Out The Window" Syndrome Mike cited was one of the biggest fallbacks of those who ran the carbon arc booths.

In fact, I knew of one projectionist that fell out the window. The booth was very hot, so the projectionist only had part of his underwear on when he fell out the booth window. Trouble is, he could not get back into the booth because the door was locked. Embarrassingly, he had to walk down through the auditorum and into the lobby to get the keys to unlock his booth door.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-18-2001, 01:07 PM:

Long ago and far away, in my own carbon arc days, I recall we were able to set the carbon feed speeds fairly accurately, so the proper position and gap were maintained without adjustment for the entire 20 minute reel. Our job responsibilities included "lot patrol" between reels, so we had to rely on the automatic feed accuracy. Problems of "purple screen" due to improper position were usually when we were using "carbon savers", or had not properly seasoned (dried) the carbons, so they burned erratically.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 09-18-2001, 07:55 PM:

It is quite a job to get them to burn dead on target for 20 minutes. because I am using old carbon that likes to sputter, the required speed varies just a little during the burn. I had one lamp adjusted so it would burn an entire positive carbon without adjustment, but when you changed carbons, it would dirft a little. I am using Peerless Magnarc type G lamps, John what were you using "back in the day"?

Josh

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-18-2001, 10:56 PM:

Spluttering carbons are often caused by either cracks in the core or moisture
Put them on a backing sheet in the oven at 350 for an hour and always keep the next trim lieing in the lamphouse to keep them dry

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 09-18-2001, 11:57 PM:

I'm Still using Magnac Type E's. Running 8's and 7's at about 65 anps.One will hold the line for an entire hour and reel after reel, nothing seems to make the other hold for more than 35 to 40 minutes. need a cue cutter? Cardinal has some Clint Phare cue cutters left. They make near perfect cues, if you are VERY light handed and turn it no more than a quarter turn a green cue can be made. Carbons all seem to now be poor. Nationals run up and down in brightness like they have a dimmer inside with frequent flares to about 10 times normal. I guess the core is clumped. Marbles flicker a lot. I've roasted both at 250 to 350 degrees F to no avail. The demand probably isn't high enough for the manufacturers to give a damn about quality control.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-19-2001, 10:53 AM:

I say keep the cue dots.

I've noticed that prints from French labs (LTC and Eclair mainly) never have lab-printed cue dots. As a result, they tend to accumulate multiple sets of 'do it yourself' ones pretty quickly, sometimes including holes punched in the film. But of course prints made in French labs tend to be arthouse titles if they make it to the UK, and it is precisely the arthouse titles which are most likely to be run with changeovers.

For mainstream Hollywood titles, you could probably get rid of the cue dots without many complaints. But I'm pretty sure that it's only projectionists who ever notice them systematically - I certainly knew nothing about them before I worked in the film industry. I've certainly never known a customer to complain about them. All it takes is one person taking a chinagraph pencil, craft knife or hole punch to the film stock and you'll risk dirt and scratching over 50-100 feet in total, which will eventually spread itself all over the print. IMHO, unnecessary cue dots are a minor irritation worth putting up with to avoid that.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-19-2001, 12:57 PM:

Josh asked: " John what were you using "back in the day"?"

At the drive-in, we had Ashcraft Super Cinex lamps, and used rotating National 11mm x 20 inch High Intensity carbons (L0109) for the positive, and 3/8 x 9-inch copper clad Orotip (L1124) for the negative. Sometimes used Lorraine carbons for the negative. Typically ran at 115 to 120 amperes. We got about 3 reels (1 hour) per carbon. Estimate we put out over 15,000 lumens for "scope" format.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-19-2001, 10:05 PM:

Yeah, John, At the outdoor, I used to run the carbon savers through the arc when it came to the last time to use the coupler. Had to keep my hand on the negative feed though, because sometimes they fell apart and the arc went out.

But, if you looked at the screen, you would say, "ooooo- look at the cool colors".

Paul

Posted by Bruce Shinabarger (Member # 1004) on 09-21-2001, 12:24 PM:

John-
We also used 11x20 positive carbons at our outdoor. We were never
able to find couplers (but, plenty of Phillips savers) for that large
diameter of rod.

Did you ever use couplers in your old booth?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-21-2001, 01:17 PM:

I've never seen "couplers"...wouldn't there be a sudden drop in light output when the join was reached?

Carbon savers are still common...I have occasionally filled in at the Cape Cinema (see picture gallery) where we use them with 7mm/6mm carbons in Peerless lamps.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-21-2001, 03:02 PM:

I like the 13.6 joinable carbons the best

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-21-2001, 03:22 PM:

Scott, to a point, yes. But most of the time you have to be there to make sure the coupler that you decide to run through the arc passes over the rod supports without hanging up.

If the spent coupler does not fall away, about the only thing you will see is just a sputter or two. (they do that, anyway from time to time). If the coupler gets hung up on the carbon feed, that is when you say, "Oooooo, look at the cool colors"

Gordon, yes. The 13.6 Black Stick you speak of is the best! No scrap!

Posted by Bruce Shinabarger (Member # 1004) on 09-21-2001, 03:39 PM:

Gorden-
Are those the rods with the threaded ends?

We used 11mm rods and could never find a way to join
them in a way that would work properly.

I tried every "McGuyver" trick I could think of...

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-21-2001, 04:11 PM:

Bruce, with reference to the 13.6 black stick, they were a tapered fit.

The 11mm black stick - lots of scrap. I don't think there was ever a saver made for those because of the water-cooled positive contacts. It would have had to be something like Gordon was talking about.

I would never recommend running a saver coupling on the negative rod of the "Black Stick" lamps because of the roughly 45 degree off-set the negative rod has. If the coupler was to break away, it is big enough to bounce around on the lamphouse floor, and maybe land on the mirror and cause some damage.

Actually, it is not a good practice to do it on any lamp. We did it because we were just plain cheap!

Paul

Posted by Bruce Shinabarger (Member # 1004) on 09-21-2001, 05:26 PM:

Yes, our "butt bucket" was always full at
the end of the season.

Although, we could get our pos rods down to
about 2" or so, basically, the width of the
water cooled silver "jaws", it still seemed like
a big waste of carbons.

Always wished we could have gotten some of the
tapered or threaded rods in 11mm, like others have
mentioned here.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 09-21-2001, 06:23 PM:

TO: Mike and Josh
My favorite "Projectionist leaning out the window" cartoon
shows a bleary-eyed bald head looking out the window at his smashed
eyeglassed fallen onto the ground below, while from the auditorium
come cries of "Focus! Focus!"

Back to Cue Marks:
I have a cue marker made {when?} by a projectionist of old from
a brass screen-door hinge, drilled and soldered with pins so that by
clamping it onto a strip of film it, with one snap it punched FOUR
perfectly-aligned tiny holes through the upper-right corner of four frames. Much faster than twirling a Pharo cue-marking stylus four times in its casting, and without the dust the Pharo created.

Back to carbons:
The mason jar of copper carbon drippings on my relic shelf
reminds me of the saving for the war effort in WWII, when they were
taken to the IATSE local office routinely. Post-war, some projectionists were unable to break themselves of saving them.
I remember working a temp in a 42nd Street booth (replaced by the
Disney-type chain stores) where holes in the booth's wallboard
were stuffed with kraft lunchbags, each containing copper drippings
no longer being collected, but "too valuable to throw away."
Gerard