Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Torn Perfs

This is topic Torn Perfs in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 09-29-2001, 05:28 PM:

I just wanted to take a survey. How do you deal with torn perfs on an incoming print? A singel torn perf? two or three? several frames worth? several feet? I'm sure most of us have encountered them all.

incidentally, i am currently inspecting a print of raging bull. reels 5-7 (i'm working backwards through the reels) have been ok (other than the first 4 feet of reel 6 being upsidedown), but reel four was interesting. About a third of the way into the reel there was a splice, and the film was flipped so that the soundtrack was on the oppsite side shortly after there were several sections that had varying amounts of torn perfs. I've seen it before, and I've seen worse, but that is what sparked the question.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-29-2001, 06:08 PM:

Depending on a lot of things I will either use a cinebug or I v notchs

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-29-2001, 06:17 PM:

I have used a cinebug before and it is a piece of crap.......I would much rather stretch the film out on a bench and roll out some spliceing tape over the sprocket hole area of the film and take a razor blade and trim down the edge of the film. then punch the holes using the splicer...this works better because the splicing tape sticks better to the film than the cinebug tape.....

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 09-29-2001, 06:20 PM:

What exactly is a cinebug? I assume it's similar to a perfix machine?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-29-2001, 06:28 PM:

It is a poor mans perfix.
If the tape is fresh and the print clean i have had no problems with it sticking

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 09-29-2001, 06:46 PM:

The trouble with perffix is, that if You have as mentioned several feet - lots of feet, maybe - the reel will be so "heavy" on one side, that it will give You focus-trouble, maybe even trouble running the film - and even more trouble, when the print is de-realed onto core (if You still use that in the states...)

Perffix is a small miracle for short footage repair - and no more.
Besides its quite expensive, if You're ment to keep the distributors prints fit for fight that way...

Per

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-30-2001, 12:17 AM:

Ok, this just goes to show you how much I know. What is perfix and cinebug?

I ususally cut the frames out. Am I not supposed to do that??

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-30-2001, 12:25 AM:

they are devices that repair the sprocket holes.....if you only have an occasional broken sprocket just put a piece of splicing tape over it....If there are several broken sprockets you can use these types of devices to fix it.....they use a special type of tape designed to go on just the sprocket holes.

Gordon is right....you need to make sure the area you are applying the perf tape is clean as possable and the tape is new not old....

Posted by Mitchell Cope (Member # 32) on 09-30-2001, 01:43 PM:

Gordon, tell us about V notches. I've got an old reel that has a torn perforation about every 12 inches over about 300 feet of film. I don't want to splice or "perfix" that much film. Should I V notch and/or just keep my fingers crossed?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-30-2001, 01:45 PM:

V notching is well cover in Richardsons and in one of the old film notes from Kodak
It requires some skill to do properly and some machines don't like them

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 09-30-2001, 07:28 PM:

The Holmes 8 has no troubles with notched sprocket holes.

I've notched film since the late 70's and have only seen a few that had problems in the projector.

I'm working on an old IB feature that has nicked spocket holes every foot or so all through all of the even-numbered reels. Most of the repairs have been done using splicing tape, but some have had to be notched carefully. It takes time, but when I'm finished, it will run just fine.

Now, if this print was received for a run in a theatre, I'd demand a replacement print, pronto!

I know that you guys dont have the luxury of time when you inspect prints.

I am sorry for this.

"Integrity Inspected?" Yeah, right.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-30-2001, 08:40 PM:

Bruce I wasn't mentioning any specific machine just that there are some that don't like v notching and for no apparent reason
I had a booth with twin XL's and one machine had no problem the other sure did

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-30-2001, 11:08 PM:

Some platters will rip a V-notched print to shreds if you aren't careful. Try to avoid any extreme twists or edge dragging.

Perf durability is the #1 best all time good thing about Estar film, IMO...

-Aaron

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 09-30-2001, 11:26 PM:

"V" notching was the recommended cure for checked out sprocket perfs during the old carbon arc days in the US Navy. That was taught in the MPO school. If memory serves me correctly, the maximum of V notching was two adjacent sprocket holes. Any more than that, it was recommended the frame be cut out.

Since the advent of the polyester prints, I never saw a "checked out sprocket hole."

Paul

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 10-01-2001, 10:09 AM:

Understood, Gordon.

Is it my imagination, or is IB film more prone to having brittle base stock? I've got several IB features that have alot of minor damage here and there along the perf edges, and occasionally there are runs of perf breaks along the center of the holes. I get the breaks aligned properly, and lay on the splicing tape. I dont see this much with my acetate Eastman, Fuji, Agfa, etc. stuff. Think it's just the old age of the IB print showing? My youngest IB print is from 1971, and the oldest is from 1960.

Is the old age idea right?

FilmGuard has done a nice job on these prints. Before FG, I would discover new perf edge breaks sometimes when rewinding a just-run print. Now, nothing. All the guides and rollers on the Holmeses are free and correctly adjusted. This damage was random, like possibly old damage that finally gave up and broke.

I assume that the FG is either super-lubricating the print so it slides through the machine, or it's actually soaking into the base and improving its flexability.

I just ordered bottle #4...

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-01-2001, 10:39 AM:

Gordon said: "V notching is well cover in Richardsons and in one of the old film notes from Kodak. It requires some skill to do properly and some machines don't like them."

I can't recall that Kodak's "Film Notes for Reel People" ever recommended the practice of "notching". In fact, issue H-50-12 (dated 1981) says "The practice of "V" cutting should be avoided because of further damage that often occurs".

I agree with you that "some machines don't like them", such that you are likely to damage the film far beyond a few torn perfs. An occasional torn perf should be fixed with perforated clear tape such as the Perf-Fix or Cine-Bug, or splicing tape that mends the torn perforation and is perforated.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-01-2001, 10:48 AM:

Bruce asked:

"Is it my imagination, or is IB film more prone to having brittle base stock? I've got several IB features that have alot of minor damage here and there along the perf edges, and occasionally there are runs of perf breaks along the center of the holes. I get the breaks aligned properly, and lay on the splicing tape. I dont see this much with my acetate Eastman, Fuji, Agfa, etc. stuff. Think it's just the old age of the IB print showing? My youngest IB print is from 1971, and the oldest is from 1960."

I suspect it has more to do with the lubricity of the prints, rather than a difference in the film base. For optimum projection performance and print life, SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 151 specifies that 35mm prints be edgewaxed. The Kodak processing specifications also specify that prints be properly lubricated for optimum projection life:
Kodak Specification for Print Lubrication

Proper lubrication and using the minimum gate tension that still produces a steady image reduces the amount of force needed to pull the film through the projector gate, greatly reducing perforation wear and damage.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 10-01-2001, 01:49 PM:

Thank you, John!

As you know, I still have my copies of most of the "Reel People" publications.

I am a V-notcher. If there are 2 consecutive tears on the spkt holes, I will tape rather than notch them both.

When I did 16mm, the only machines that disliked my notch work were the Kodaks that I still have with me. And then again, it was only prints that had 2 frames within a couple of inches of film notched, and then again, all I would see on the screen is the image bounce to the side.

I still love my old Kodak Pageants.

My notcher is very old. No name on it that I can see, but when done properly, it makes notches that do not catch on my fingers, cleaning pads, etc.

Some of my prints were crushed on bad metal reels when I got them. One 1936 feature that I consider my best came on reels that were not damaged in shipment, but were squashed down all the way around the core of film. Pliers were needed, along with the muffler for what was spewing out of my mouth!

Now, I've fixed every inch of the print. You cant tell that anything happened to the print, except for some slight weave at the fade-outs at the end of each reel. FilmGuard did a great job on this one. Now, 2 years later, the print winds smoothly and has no focus problems.

Personally, I've learned tons of information here on Film-Tech, along with what I learned from my film-director boss Sid O'Berry back in the late '70's in a small TV station.

I thank all that have offered me advise. I've printed and kept everything in a small binder.