Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Very Odd Print

This is topic Very Odd Print in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Manuel Francisco Valencia (Member # 710) on 10-13-2001, 01:15 AM:

Just this last Thursday we recieved two prints of the movie BANDITS. As I was building one of them up I noticed that first of all the SDDS and SR-D tracks are grey. I have never seen this on a movie before. Second it seemed "slicker" than most prints, alomost to the point to where I thought it was coated with something. After building it up I tried to pick it up and move it but it was LOOSE! Not to be too blunt but it was more loose than a cheap you know what on nickel night. It took six clamps and another person to just feel safe about moving it. While screenng it the trailers ran through the projector fine but as soon as the movie hit the gate trap it started shaking bad. It is so slick that the tension(2) on the gate could not keep it steady. The top constant speed assembly was pushing the film through the gate causing the small/big loop that is normally above the gate to be between the gate and intermittent. We finally got the picture steady with the tension set on 4 and threading with the intermittent as close to the gate as possible. I called Technicrap and I got some lady who answers the phone for a living to speak with. She kept putting me on hold to talk to the boys in the techincal department. When all was said and done she said they will "try" and get me a new print, so they were obviously not too concerned with the possibility of my projector being damaged. Has anyone had a print like this?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-13-2001, 06:11 AM:

Any chance it is a dye transfer print? Dye transfer prints have only silver in the analog and digital soundtrack areas, so the tracks appear gray without any coloration from dyes.

Regardless, perhaps this print accidently received too much lubrication, or had some kind of protective treatment.

Was only one of your two prints this way?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Manuel Francisco Valencia (Member # 710) on 10-13-2001, 11:00 AM:

It said on the print "F DYE TRANSFER." It is the only print like this and it is a new print so that rules out any other theatre doing something to it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-13-2001, 02:13 PM:

Clearly the print is overlubricated. I guess the Technicolor lab is trying to lube those dye transfer prints before they leave the lab to combat complaints on shedding. I take it your print looks like the second one below, right?

And I also take it your print had green changeover cues, like this picture, right?

Posted by Manuel Francisco Valencia (Member # 710) on 10-14-2001, 12:00 AM:

Yup

Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 10-14-2001, 03:03 PM:

Looking at the IB print, it looks like the digital soundtracks are optically printed on B/W stock. I'm curious if any of the dye transfer prints have dye transfer digital soundtracks.

It seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to obtain accurate dye transfer in the sprocket and edge areas.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-14-2001, 04:06 PM:

There is an interesting article in BKSTS Cinema Technology about technicolors attempts at a Diazo based dye track years back
well worth reading

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 10-15-2001, 05:13 AM:

Dye transfer soundtracks ARE silver tracks. They're done prior to the dyeing process. The dye transfer is then done on what is basically blank stock (except for the soundtracks) , since any residual unexposed silver emulsion is removed prior to the transfer and recycled. The printing is done directly on the film base. At least that's the way I remember it from reading Richard Haines' great book on the subject.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-15-2001, 07:51 AM:

Check out US Patents 6,002,470 and 6,094,257:
http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 10-15-2001, 08:36 AM:

Not only is the optical track printed in B/W prior to the dye transfer process, so are the frame lines and, in the case of pre-1950 IB Tech so was a silver "key" image printed from the B/W green record negative which supposedly increased contrast and image definition.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 10-15-2001, 08:39 AM:

I had the great privilege many years ago of spending a day at Technicolor London (including a nice buffet lunch) with colleagues of mine from the West End cinemas seeing the whole dye- transfer process in a massive plant, reels printed from the three matrixes in broad daylight. Following the process all reels were projected through with the soundtrack in view onto large screens and checked by examiners at a rate of 72 frames a second. The late Bernard Happe gave the tour of the plant and lecture with film in the theatre. We were also shown other Technicolor processes for 65/70mm including 35/70mm Technirama.

Do visit Technicolor if you get the opportunity. Dye-transfer may no longer apply in the UK though.