This is topic Switching vs. Reactance Supplies in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 10-15-2001, 08:59 AM:
 
Reading the Strong Super Lume-X thread it struck (sorry, no pun) me that it might be interesting to get everyone's slant on switching vs. "brute force" reactance power supplies in terms of MTBF, overall reliability, ease of service, etc. I have both and have only had problems with the reactance supply, but they were such simple problems even I could trace my way through them. I certainly wouldn't try with a switcher...but then they're so cool-running, light, and efficient. What's your take?
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-15-2001, 09:40 AM:
 
Both can be great if done correctly. There are good rectifiers of both types on the market and there are also bad rectifiers of both types on the market. The only thing I stick by is never to use switching rectifiers, or computerized sound processors for any important location work of any type. If things can go wrong they will if there is some computer dependent thing in the chain.
Mark @ GTS


 


Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-15-2001, 11:06 AM:
 
We've only used the Strong switchers, and the newest generation have been fairly good. A 2K recently failed, even if it had been out of warranty I would not attempt to repair it, it's not really set up for maintenance and I would want a test setup to check the control board at least. The power stuff is well hidden inside!
I know of a lot of problems with 7K systems running switchers. I wouldn't recommend that combination, AMC at least has removed their 7K switchers in Canada and installed high-reactance ones. They do keep a switcher for emergencies and they left the quick-connect plugs, using the AC for the "new" one although the DC is hard wired. If a rectifier fails they can fairly quickly disconnect a DC lead, plug in the AC and DC cables and use the switcher for the rest of the day's shows.
That said, we've seen several failures of the AC connectors. Maybe Strong isn't tightening the connections (a weakness of theirs) but replacing 2 twistlok connectors gets expensive.
I would recommend a high reactance one for any remote place or a rental machine, and a spare switcher be on hand at a multiplex using them.
The ease of adjusting current with the switcher can be a problem if there's a "fiddler" in the booth. (Fiddler in the Booth - could be a movie in that...) It is important to set the internal maximum current so they can't overdrive the lamp too much.
 
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-15-2001, 12:09 PM:
 
Dave said: "It is important to set the internal maximum current so they can't overdrive the lamp too much."

Great idea. How in the world do you do that?

My first theatre had the new Strong switchers. I loved the potentiometer for adjusting current, rather than messing with the taps. I also loved being able to change out the whole thing, rather that having to change diodes or something else if the rectifier goes bad. And I love the trouble lights!!! However, within a year, we had three go bad. I have heard similar reports from other theatres. (Someone told me he had 3 go bad in one week!) So I guess there's a little give-and-take either way you go.

As far as trying to trouble-shoot one, you're not supposed to! They are not user serviceable. I suppose that's why they're so easy to change out. Just pop in your spare and send the old one back to Strong.

I don't know of any major problems with the high reactance rectifiers.

 


Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 10-15-2001, 12:14 PM:
 
What is the cost difference generally between the two types?
Also, what is it that eventually causes failure? Hours? I have seen a drive-in locally has just gone with a switcher. Pretty risky, considering it's one-screen/ one-projector. Of course, not a lot of "hours per year" will go on that unit.

I still think that my as-yet-unbuilt outdoor will have two-projectors
with hour-long reels at the ready, that way if one were to go down, at least you could keep the screen lit with minor inconvenience of a
thread-up mid-show. What would you do?
 


Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-15-2001, 02:37 PM:
 

"but then they're so cool-running, light, and efficient. What's your take?"

Shut down the fans in one and you'll change your mind! They actually get quite hot with out a fan and will shut down. In the switchers its the fan that keeps em cool. Older Strong switchers were notorious for overheating when you used them in a booth that was hot say in the summer. I've been to booths that hvae the tops removed and have a 3 foot window fan blowing on them!

In any rectifier that has diodes, the diodes are only rated for so mnay thermal cycles before they will mechanicaly fail. I have seen alot of this in older Christie rectifiers and some Irems but mainly those rectifiers that have no cooling fan. Also diodes that use that green epoxy type seal are prone to literally fall apart after a number of years. Using diodes that are glass sealed will allow much longer life and more thermal cycles. Even if a rectifier is fan cooled the diodes still go through this thermal cycling at the silicon chip. There is some thermal resistance in the diode itself so the actual silicon chip itself runs a bit hotter than the diode casing, and there is another thermal joint adding resistance between the case and heatsink. Lotys of heatsinking and or fans are the only way to reduce this failure but you will never see a rectifier that never ever fails at some time in its useful life.
Mark @ GTS


 


Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-15-2001, 05:55 PM:
 
Internal current adjustment on Strong switchers...
I don't have the manual here, but it's a trimpot on the control board. I'll look tomorrow if I remember and see if it's got a name or number.
I've had to turn a few of them up to get 7kW current, and a few down so that 5kW lamps couldn't be blasted.
A useless though interesting note... I was looking at a switcher manual today and the only part that isn't referenced or listed in the parts drawing is that control card, it's shown but no arrow or number. Hmmm.
 
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 10-15-2001, 07:55 PM:
 
Our experience over the first year of operating with switching rectifiers was not all that good. There were a few failures.

The newer Strong consoles we have been receiving in the last couple of years or so, however, have been equipped with intake fans on the non-operating side of the door. These fans seem to help greatly on cutting back on the number of failures.

In problematic booths, (those that have had 2 or more failures)(usually 7K), I have added fans to these older consoles and, touch wood (knocking on head), have not had a failure in over two years on these units.

I would like to know, for those of you who have experienced failures with switching rectifiers, did they fail at the start of a show or during a performance?


 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-15-2001, 08:50 PM:
 
I had Strong switchers with Highlight II consols that had the fans on the non-op side. When the equipment was about six months old, one of my switchers faild during the show. Sometime within the next year (I don't remember when exactly), 2 more went out. Don't know if it was during a show, because neither was on my shift.

Eventually just about any peice of equipment will fail. I expect rectifiers to be no exception. But the problem, at least in my experience, is how quickly they fail. 3 in a year?? Seems rather unreasonable, if you ask me. Then again, I've heard of theatres that have had no problems.
 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-15-2001, 11:07 PM:
 
Personally, I hate the switchers. Are they named because you have to "switch them out"? Making an conventional power supply compatible to a switcher's configuration can be a little tricky sometimes.
 
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-15-2001, 11:13 PM:
 
No, they are not named "switchers" because you switch them out. There are hard wired switchers, too. They are "switching power supplies," that electronically convert the AC to DC using printed circuit boards. See the thread entitled "Strong Super Lume-X Problem" for explanations by guys who know a helluva lot more what they are talking about than I do.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-15-2001, 11:28 PM:
 
Ken, what I posted was just a wise crack towards the switchers, primarly because I don't like them.


 


Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 10-16-2001, 12:44 AM:
 
I understand what Paul means. No longer can you simply carry a pocket-full of diodes and be pretty sure of affecting a repair to a downed rectifier. These switchers ARE complicated.

Still, I have had some luck (and learned a lot) with repairing them (not without some help on finding information from some of the people here on Film-Tech). I agree with an earlier statement Paul made, in another post, about it being easier to send them back to the factory for repair.

However, with the hassles of getting them through customs (CAN. - U.S), plus the time incurred being without a spare rectifier, and no, we don't yet have 7K reactance types on hand, not to mention the logistics of getting a heavier than sin reactance type up to the booth on a Saturday afternoon to save a show for the weekend, I have no choice.


 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-16-2001, 01:03 AM:
 
A real nice advantage about "conventional" set-ups: When you have a spare lamphouse and power supply on wheels and ready to go:

If you blow a power supply or a lamp, just simply grab your spare power supply and lamp, drag it over to the station, throw the lamphouse on the pedistal, plug it in, light-'er up, and you are back on the screen!

Consoles, well, you are basically screwed if it was a switcher or any power supply and/or lamp failure.

Funny thing is, when Regal bought our theater, they acted like I committed an unforgivable sin by having a spare lamphouse and power supply sitting on a dolly "ready to go". They threw it away! What idiots!

Word also got to me that shortly after they bought our theater, (and I was no longer part of their HS operation,) two day's worth of shows were lost because of an exciter lamp failure. Yes - a stupid exciter lamp burned out! I was told nobody was allowed to change it.


 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-16-2001, 08:49 AM:
 
A spare power supply is always nice to have. It's necessary if you have switchers. But why a spare lamphouse??

The Regal techs do not like people messing with what they don't know. Did you have actual exciter bulbs, or LED's? If the were bulbs, that seems a little ridiculous, but if they were LED's I can understand. My last tech didn't even want the operators changing diodes for fear they might screw something up. I suppose I can understand his reasoning.
 


Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 10-16-2001, 09:12 AM:
 
HERE,HERE Paul...I totally agree with you, the switcher power supplies I rather not use, but I don't own the company I work for and the owners have the final say, I'm just bthe installer !! but the Strong Switcher Pwr Supply is better now than it was a two years, I did a install in Joplin Missouri & the switcher on a 2K lamp was going out after 20 hours, after we wire the console we run the lamp & Proj for 100 hrs. before opening, we were going though pwr supplies left & right, the theatre was ether a 12 or 14 screen (install too many theatres since then), we had a pwr supply to go out, I changed the fuses inside the switches & fire shot out !!! Not a spark but fire !! When Troy came to align the consoles I showed him, Whoooaaa Weeeee he tripped out, it was the damnest thing I ever saw !!! I now do not ever try to change the fuse anymore, just send for a replacement...Here in Japan I we do not use switcher pwr supply, but in the states over night means over night, in Japan overnight mean 5-7 days, if you are lucky !! But the Strong Switcher is much better now than 2-years ago, we only have 1 out of 12 fail.....much better !! But I still rather use a high reactance where you can service in the field.....ok I'm off the soapbox now....
 
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-16-2001, 10:17 AM:
 
We have had excellent service with IREM switchers but they admit that customers should expect 40% less service life than a "iron core" magnetic rectifier. The older Strong rectifiers where horrible and had a 50% failure rate for us in the first year, in addition to switcher failures, we where having DC terminal blocks melting.......... ( when we looked up the specs on the block, it was rated for A.C. use, not D.C. which tends to put more thermal problems to a connection point )....we have only sold two of the newer type...so far no problems. Strong had to take many of the older returns to the dump as noted on a 10 K repost to their stockholders. In Japan you have Xebex ( Ushio division ) that has made switchers for years and if you buy a Tokiwa projection system some of them have the switching rectifier mounted on the back of the projection cabinet for rapid changeout ( do they know something? ).
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 10-16-2001, 02:59 PM:
 
Ken, they were exciter lamps. To be more specific, they were 9 volt 4 amp pre-focused lamps. The soundhead was a Simplex SH-1004.

Why the spare lamphouse? Simple. It was already interfaced with the power supply. This eliminated the need for anyone to remove covers to connect or disconnect any wires whatsoever. Just plug it in and throw the switch!!

Customers are not to interested in waiting while the projectionist fiddles around 20 minutes or more trying to find out why the lamp doesn't light.

But they will probably wait five minutes for you to throw a lamphouse on the pedistal and throw the switch.

Each projection station was equipped with a 50 amp twist lock receptical for that purpose.
 


Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-16-2001, 05:10 PM:
 
We have two Super Troupers with the new smaller Strong switchers and they have not so much as hiccupped. They are almost two years old now and have seen extensive rental and bouncing around, I have not had any failures either in consoles or lamp/rectifiers that I have sold since the small supply appeared. Lately we have only had a few repair/exchanges on the older switchers and there are lots of them in the mountain states.
Mark @ GTS


 


Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 10-16-2001, 09:44 PM:
 
I have to admit that switchers are much more reliable in the last couple of years. A tip to installation technicians - tighten all the connections on the 3-phase twist-lock plug.

One interesting problem we have had ONLY with the newer plug-and-pray types (3 instances), is where the rectifier suddenly shoots up to full output. You get to the theatre to find out why a rectifier has been cutting out (thermal) and note that the current to your 4000-watt bulb is 200+ amps! (The potentiometer is NOT the problem, btw).

Looking forward to investigating this phenomenon further when I get the time.

With so many switcher-rectifier equipped theatres to service, it would be rather expensive to have a unit in each theatre. Better. we find, to keep them in a central location and deliver them as needed. (Yet another reason why technicians always have one arm longer than the other).


 


Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-17-2001, 12:18 AM:
 
I'll take either depending on the site. I have about 200 switchers and about 200 of the "brute force" high reactance power supplies in sites all over the world. The biggest problem I have found with switchers is: ....if the ac line is dirty, then they will fail. Also, not too fond of the 380-440volt, 3-phase versions... they seem to fail like.... Ummmmm cold cakes!!!!! I have Strong 2kw, single phase Switchers in my home screening room and would not trade them for sex. They are GREAT!!!!! (Ummmm that's negotiable..... )


>>> Phil


 


Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-19-2001, 07:47 PM:
 
Both Switchers and high-reactance supplies have their uses. The concept of switching power supplies is not inherently flawed...everyone reading this is using a computer that I can just about guarantee is using a switching power supply. Sure there are computers that have their power supplies fail but as a function of usage...not an overwhelming number.

That said...I think there are two ways of looking at the situation for permanent theatrical use...

First there is no real weight advantage to the switcher since the goal is not to replace it but for it to work. A conventional rectifier is almost always serviceable with minimal time (I say almost since sometimes it is the transformer and most of us don't carry that nor the large filter capacitor though I get the capacitor quickly in a pinch). Certainly, all rectifiers will fail someday...how well your system keeps the ignition noise, power spikes and such away from the diodes will play a big factor on if the diode fails at show start...how well it is cooled will play a factor on how well they last thoughout the day. I'm sure most of the old timers know of rectifiers they have NEVER had to go into yet others that seem like constant repeat customers despite being basically identical designs.

The second way to look at things is that using switchers, even with their failures, brings the repair down to the theatre level. That is, have your switchers on plugs and have a spare at each location...at that point, the theatre can simply plug in the spare, send out the defective one and when it comes back...the spare is at the ready. Based on the size of the complex, one should have more than one spare...in fact with the larger plexes 4 spares would not be unreasonable...heck most plexes carry more $$$ in spare xenon lamps. Since no spare xenon nor rectifier means the show won't run both should be on hand.

We have one customer that uses conventional rectifiers but has them on plugs as well so when even a diode fails the rectifier can be switched out with virtually no down time. With conventional rectifiers only one per booth is all that is needed (doubtfull more than one will fail and they are servicable at the theatre).

My personal vote is to use high-reactance rectifiers whenever possible in permanent installations. Their failure rate is less, meaning less customer dissatisfaction and are repairable on site for quick repair. Switchers can also suffer from semiconductor obsolecense whereas diodes and capacitors can be sourced from several manufacturers for the forseeable future.

If you are a rental house...that is a different story...swichers win pretty easily...they are light weight and set up quickly...Strong has theirs done quite nicely with MS plugs and any reputable rental house will have spare switchers at the ready on site (most have a 1:1 ratio of spares to show units).

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-20-2001, 02:08 PM:
 
I have a question. What do the terms "brute force" (which I never heard until this thread) and "high reactance" mean?

I know that there are hard-wired swithcers. Out of curiosity, do other manufacturers make switchers that are as easy to replace as Strong's?
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-20-2001, 02:17 PM:
 
brute force is a slang for a heavy duty lots of copper transformer/bridge rectifier with capacitance filtering
High Reactance reffers to the transformer style and filter choke
the XPS45 by LP associates and ORC is a high reactance the kniesly is a low reactance.
Irem and Sanrex also make switch mode powersupplies and there is nothing to stop a high reactance being connected with mil spec connectors. In fact our rentl XPS powersupplys are that way
 
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 10-22-2001, 11:15 AM:
 
A bit off topic, but...Being a camel has its drawbacks, but overall I don't feel bad after seeing some of you guys. Honestly...pigs, monkeys, and reptiles!!!!
 
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-22-2001, 11:46 AM:
 
Switchers........Christie/Sanrex/Ushio/IREM/Strong/LP Associates (this is our service tech spare - weighs 20 pounds and puts out 70 amps)/Carsan Engineering (used in many self contained Xenon scearchlights)and more......when and if Digital Cinema does get off the ground...switchers will be standard since the switching circuitry for DLP chips shows up any ripple visually in the power being supplied to the xenon bulb. Love the pictures, almost choked on my morning cereal while laughing....I have to send a better picture.........
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-22-2001, 01:05 PM:
 
Richard Fowler said: "when and if Digital Cinema does get off the ground...switchers will be standard since the switching circuitry for DLP chips shows up any ripple visually in the power being supplied to the xenon bulb"

Does the AC ripple in the xenon light output show up on the screen as flicker, or some sort of banding pattern? I assume the higher frequency of the ripple in the switching power supply doesn't "beat" with the refresh rate of the digital image?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-23-2001, 12:33 PM:
 
I didn't know LP built a switcher and does Carsan Engineering have site with info on there switchers?
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-23-2001, 01:06 PM:
 
Oh no... I beat John P. to this one..... http://www.carsaneng.com/html/company_profile.html
Mark @ GTS
 
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-23-2001, 02:16 PM:
 
Ripple shows up as flicker and less so color banding. LP makes switcher supply searchlights for the Air Force and other Military groups. Hopefully Leonard Pincus will be walking ShowEast around with his cigar and ponytail.....
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com
 
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 10-27-2001, 05:21 AM:
 
I am using small, covenient 3 kW switch supplies for over 18 month now. They do run great. The supply is 230 Volts singlephase, and the 10 Amp breaker from the general lillumination outlet will hold the load for hours. So the phase factor must be near to 1, the mfg claims 0.99.
The advantages are: 8 lbs, 3kW, shoe box size, ripple below 2%, operational loss 40 Watts.
Our old reactance (transducer) controlled supplies ate about 300 Watts for the control circuit, even in idle mode. Alone due to that, the savings are tremendous, in electric energy. And if one fails, we have spares, that are changeable with the removal of a single Harting plug.
The tradional 50/60 Hz technology certainly has a much longer MTBF and easier everyone repair, as it is just 8 heavy duty components, compared the 1000+ electronic parts within the switcher.
On the other hand we've been using high power (15k+) switchers within the telecom business for nearly 20 years now, without a greater unreliability.
In critical application you may parallel 3 smaller (50% max current) supplies, so in case one fails, the remaining 2 can take the full load, if 2 fail, you'll still have 50% of the original power.
I learnt to like switch modes.
One thing they do not like is badly filtered igniters, but good grounding and the use of DC in-line filters can easily get hold of this problem.
 




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