Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 70mm

This is topic 70mm in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-22-2001, 09:46 PM:

I have been to a couple of theatres that had 70mm projectors at one time, but they were taken out. So, I used to think that 70mm was a dying breed. But from reading these forums, that would appear not to be the case. So what is the story with 70mm? How often is it used, and why would a theatre that used to have 70mm equipment have it removed? thx.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 10-22-2001, 10:14 PM:

Sadly, very few producers/distrubutors want to pay the extra money for a 70mm print (a DTS 70mm print costs about 3X what a regular 35mm print costs.) Also, I think they do not have any confidence in most projectionist's abilities; they think it will get ruined in a short time.

At one theater, we took it out because it was different than the other projectors in use, which made training tougher. Also, I notice many theaters which have a 70mm projector have an older model, which usually does not have a lens turret. Automating everything is important nowadays, and the cost to retro-fit a turret to some 70mm projectors is more than the bean-counters feel is worth.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 10-22-2001, 11:55 PM:

Well, if anyone is in the minneapolis area, The Heights Theatre in Columbia Heights is running almost all 70MM shows until Christmas!!!

The Heights is using two Norelco AAII's, 6 track SR, dts and dolby digital changeovers, however, most 35 stuff is platter run. on the list is Ghost busters, Titanic, and if memory serves, Hamlet.

and for the anime fans, Vampire Hunter D(not that great from what I heard) is running in about a week.

Josh

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-23-2001, 01:23 AM:

Josh,

Dave Holmgren is the man behind the show at the Heights theater. I'm almost positive that all of their 70mm prints are platter run. I believe the 2nd projector just sits there as a backup.

Surely this information will not ruin a show for you there though. The make/model of projector and whether it is reels or platter should not affect the presentation.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 10-23-2001, 08:44 AM:

Actually, I know Dave Holmgren. I bought my brenkerts from those guys. I have also had the priviledge of starting the show "Oklahoma" in Todd AO. that show was platter run on the right or projector number two. They use both machines regularly, a good 75 percent of their 70 stuff is being run changeover, and also all of their festival stuff is too. Not the most fun booth in the world to work, it is a little cramped. Platter operation doenst bother me a bit, I just like changeover operation. it makes one feel somewhat important in the booth.

Josh

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-23-2001, 10:16 AM:

Why remove the equipment well the industry seems bent on stupid self destruction.
In most cases staff find the dual machines to complicated and too easy to make a mistake with and either damage film or inflect costly equipment damage

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 10-24-2001, 12:07 PM:

Just to clarify a point - a DTS 70mm print is actually cheaper than striping with mag tracks. It's a cost savings for studios who wish to distribuate a film in 70mm. You will be seeing some films in DTS 70mm next year.

Unfortunately, there aren't many working 70mm theaters with qualified projectionists anymore. It's just the way it is although most studios realize a lot of partons go out of their way for a 70mm show.

Karen at DTS

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 10-24-2001, 12:17 PM:

70mm is a weird concept to theaters in Madison as well. Marcus Theaters, the biggest chain in Wisconsin, was remodeling their "flagship" Madison theater and wanted 70mm capability. They bought the cheapest, oldest out of service projector they could find for some reason and even one of the best guys in town couldn't get it up and running. They got rid of the projector almost as quickly as the bought it, and again Madison was without a 70mm house.

I know there are lists of films shot in 65mm/released in 70mm, but does anyone have a list of theaters that can show it?

Hey Josh and Brad,
Sorry to post this here, but do you guys have an email contact for Dave Holmgren? I get up to the Twin Cities on a fairly regular basis, and I've been wanting to check The Heights out. If I can get in there, I'd be happy to take some photos if people are interested.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-24-2001, 12:45 PM:

Scott Norwood's website has a listing of 70mm theatres:
http://www.redballoon.net/current70mmus.html

Also, lots of information and links on Thomas Hauerslev's site:
http://hjem.get2net.dk/in70mm/

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-24-2001, 10:05 PM:

Karen there is no shortage of 70mmm equiped theatres in northamerica nor competant people to run them
and Joe Most convertable machines are more robust so I am suprised that a used machine could not be put back in service so something sounds very fishy there. I have yet to come across a convertable I couldn't get up and running, most were built like tanks

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 10-24-2001, 10:23 PM:

I have recently finished two 70mm installations, one at the Egyptian Theatre in Boise, Idaho now a two projector automated changeover house with both 35/70mm mag, and Dolby digital, plus the DTS is on the way, they have 4 70mm features booked over the next 4 months! The other is in Missoula Montana, a two projector boot with one of the two a 35/70 rigged for 35/70 mag, and both set for DTS running either reel to reel or on an AW3 35/70 platter! They too have three films booked in 70! Plus, there is Randy Pryde, owner of theatres in Wyoming that are predominately Norelco AA-2s! (I think he now has 12-13 installed and operating!) 70 WILL LIVE ON!!!

------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com

Posted by Aaron Haney (Member # 747) on 10-25-2001, 06:57 AM:

quote:
Karen at DTS wrote:
You will be seeing some films in DTS 70mm next year.

WHOA! That is some seriously exciting news. Are we talking about just a few prints, or a fairly large number?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-25-2001, 09:26 AM:

Jose said in a previous posting.....
"and even one of the best guys in town couldn't get it up and running"

Jose, there are no "Best guys around Madison anymore, Sorry! I used to service theatres all over Wisconsin. I moved out here to Utah four years ago. Marcus can barely run 35mm, let alone attempt 70mm. They're better off without it.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 10-25-2001, 10:37 AM:

Mark, I really agree with you about Marcus. Their theaters have improved significantly over the past couple years, at least as far as presentation goes, but they still are quite inconsistent at times. As far as no good guys though, I disagree. There are two guys in particular here, whom you may know [don't know if I should name names], that used to work for Marcus. They are great projectionists with great reputations here. A new Star Cinemas Theater opened here and both of them ended up there through Union negotiations [an interesting story in itself], and that theater has the best and most consistenly great presentation of any multiplex I've been at. One of these two guys was trying to get that 35/70 projector up and running, and I think that Marcus wasn't willing to sink any more money into it, so he was left to try to get things going himself.

Were you living in Wisconsin at the time? Who services those theaters? I'm guessing you were working for MTS, but I'd be curious to know for sure.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 10-25-2001, 12:19 PM:

Gordon,

From all reports I get from projectionists I know field in many parts of the country, there is a shortage of fully equipped 70mm screens with qualified projectionists. With all the theaters closing, equipment is being scattered to the wind. And many well qualified projectionists are losing contracts and jobs.

I've seen what the "popcorn kids" do to 70mm prints and it ain't pretty. As you know, these prints require special care and hardware needs to be good working order.

If there are more 70mm equipped theaters that are not on the list, it would probably be a good idea to add them on so studios and film makers can see there are places to show their product.

As far as more 70mm films next year, I can tell you that as now, they are limited release. Disney is releasing some as well as Sony Classics. AND, we just did a PATTON 70mm screeing at the Academy yesturday for the DVD release promo and very limited release. I believe only one print was made.

Karen at DTS

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-25-2001, 12:49 PM:

As a start, maybe participants in Film-Tech who work at theatres that are equipped to show 70mm can list their projection and sound system details (e.g., projector model, platter or reels, screen size, auditorium size, DTS/mag, sound processor, last 70mm print played, etc.), and whether they are confident that their theatre has the equipment, personnel, and expertise to properly handle 70mm as "Film Done Right". If you feel a few upgrades would be needed (new screen, new lamp, DTS reader, etc.), list them.

Be honest in your appraisal, as we are trying to develop an up-to-date listing useful to distributors in deciding whether to make any 70mm prints. Saying your theatre can properly handle 70mm, and then ruining a print through carelessness or lack of experience will only help kill any rebirth of "The Splendor of 70mm".

As Mickey Rooney said many times in those MGM musicals --- "Hey gang, let's put on a show!"

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-25-2001, 03:50 PM:

I am glad to say that there are a goodly number of 70mm shows here, and a goodly number of VERY competent people to run and look after them. We install 70mm from time to time as well, so it's alive and kicking here!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-25-2001, 03:57 PM:

Okay, here's a question: How difficult is it to learn how to run a 70mm show if you are a good 35mm projectionist?

At the Warner theatre I used to volunteer at, there was a set of Norelco AA's. I ran them in 35 and I was getting pretty "handy" when I had to leave for NC. I never really had a chance to run it in 70. There was a few feet of 70mm leader lying around on a reel and I ran that through, just to prove to myself that it worked. It did and I'm convinced that, with some work to get the projectors clean and adjusted properly, a 70mm show could be shown in that theatre just about any time you wanted.

So... for a guy who is willing to try hard enough, how difficult is it to learn... to do right?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-25-2001, 04:33 PM:

From a projection standpoint, it really isn't all that much more difficult than running 35mm. Loops are a bit more critical, but so long as the projectionists know what they SHOULD be (ignore ALL idiots who say things like "make a 2 finger loop"), running 70mm isn't a problem as far as a projectionist is concerned. Of course static is substantially increased with 70mm dts polyester prints, but we proved that to not be a problem with the Northpark run of Titanic with FilmGuard (which our good friend John Pytlak got to attend).

That being said, the biggest problem I see with 70mm runs is the techs not setting up the equipment properly. Take for example when Hoffa came out at the Prestonwood in 70mm. The film broke on over 95% of the shows! Some shows had multiple breaks!!! Why? Because the tech did not properly calibrate the timing on the platter and the takeup was oscillating, occasionally slamming the takeup arm into the motor. The stripping rollers were so close together in the brain that every splice the film would stall and as the film pulled taught, frequently the tension would cause it to break. The guide rollers were doing a 90 degree twist over a course of less than 6 inches! For that matter, the rollers weren't even aligned right in the first place, for the film was dragging over the edges of the flanges. Add to that the fact that the gate/trap was TOO TIGHT, and it was one disasterous show after another. I was visiting a friend of mine who was a manager there at the time on opening weekend and witnessed all of these problems in the 15 minutes or so that I was upstairs. The really sad part about it is that a senior tech set it up and had the equipment been set up properly, that film would have never broke.

35/70mm projectors are not just a "flip the rollers and run the film" situation. If we could only get rid of the people who treat it that way, 70mm would not have gotten such a bad reputation. We ran TONS of 70mm film at the Northpark and never had a break the entire time I was there, and we did our own setups. There is no excuse.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-25-2001, 04:58 PM:

Yeah, you're right that there are a lot of people who just don't have the "mental bandwidth".

I was just thinking that even if I haven't actually run a "go show" in 70 I can't imagine why I couldn't do it if I took an afternoon or two to practice first. But, from what you are saying, most people wouldn't even take that afternoon to practice first.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-25-2001, 05:57 PM:

Actually I worked out of Elgin Illinos. Star was one of my largest customers at the time. I sold and installed all of the equipment at all their sites except for Madison and The Dells. Reedsburg was the first, then Prarie Du Chein, and then Johnson Creek and one other way up north in Sparta. Also serviced theatres in Manitowoc, Kenosha, Stoughton, West Bend, Janesville, LaCross, and built both Value Cinemas,and several others. The Star people are really great people to work for if you can get hired by them.

I guess I kinda kicked MTS in the butt for quite a while and their work was always really inferior to what I was doing(and still is). I inherited most of the above customers just by word of mouth after a short time. Wisconsin is nice(too cold in the winter for me), but Utah blows it away...no comparison if you are the outdoorsy type like I am.
I came out to Utah on a whim and liked it here so much that I moved out here to be semi retired.....yea, right, now I'm busier than ever and have less time to do what I want to...Oh well.
P.S. I'd love to hear the Union thing going on there. I'm sure that did not sit too well with them.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 10-29-2001, 11:31 AM:

In Sweden, there are more screens than people capable of good 70mm presentations.

Unfortunately I think that's the case just about anywhere in the world.

Posted by Daniel Boisson (Member # 1027) on 10-29-2001, 07:31 PM:

I don't know about the rest of the country, but most all of the theatre owners in my area just can't afford it. They do ok with 35mm, but it costs so much more for 70mm. Its almost impossible to get any money from the owner of my theatre just to maintain the projectors. He owns 3 multiplexes and 1 single house theatre, and he's always complaining that he makes less every year.

Plus, most of the general public wouldn't care. I get people, mostly younger, that think all projection is is popping a vhs cassette into a machine.

I for one would love to have a 70mm house, there are
many people that would drive from far away to see it.

------------------
...My brain's always wrapped...

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-30-2001, 01:06 PM:

Actually in todays used equipment market 35/70 machines are a dime a dozen

Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 10-30-2001, 04:29 PM:

The Paramount theatre in Austin Texas has the Following: 2 Century JJ. 1 with an Auto Turret and 1 with out. Both have 35/70 Mag heads. Dolby Digital readers on both. Reel to Reel Changeover house that does have a Platter. 35 mm DTS reader on projector 1. The closes to the platter. Has a Dolby CP 65 with a MPU unit. DA20 and DTS 6 player. Has QSC amps in the rack. Screen is Flown during full stage performances. Not sure of the screen size for 70mm. Needed Improvements. Two DTS 70 MM readers. Staff at this theatre are union and capable of handling and showing 70MM in all it's splendor. Watched Sparticus in 70mm at the end of August. 14 reels all changeover. Not one miss frame, Good Job John

. The Arbor 7 also has 3 70mm THX houses, but I am not sure what make or model. It is now a Regal Cinema and has Platters. I would have to say the staff there is probably ill equipped to handle 70.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 11-03-2001, 08:58 PM:

This week here in Melbourne, Australia the Rivoli Theatre is running 70mm for the first time since the early 1970's when the AAII's were removed. We are running a revival of "Raiders Of The Lost Arc". The print is pink, but in generallly good condition otherwise. This is a live test for us to evaluate the new Cinemeccanica 70mm platter conversion and the newly installed mag head on the Bauer U3.

Rivoli Cinema One seats 500 and there are 7 additional theatres in the complex. The building originally opened in 1940. Cinema One has two Bauer U3's so one is converted to 70mm full time which eliminates the biggest trap for the unwary 70mm projectionist - forgetting to convert the entire film path from 35 to 70!!!

The theatre is equipped with Dolby Digital and DTS (the DTS does not have a 70mm reader at this point, we will upgrade it at the first sniff of a DTS -70mm print). Light is 5,000 watt xenon and automation is Pennywise CA 100.

The Rivoli is one of 7 screens on our Australian circuit that can run 70mm. Three can run a print tomorrow, the other four need work (lenses, processor mods etc). Our senior projection staff are the only ones able to operate on 70mm shifts.

For a look at the Rivoli:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~caths/rivoli.htm

David

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 11-04-2001, 07:33 PM:

I just got back from Minneapolis about 90 minutes ago. Saturday, At the Heights Theatre, war and peace was running in 70MM changeover on the AA II's. I was drafted into the booth and helped rewind film and on a few occasions was allowed to thread the machines and perform a changeover. it was fun, aside from the fact we were walking aound the booth with toilet paper stuffed in our ears. the print had shrunk a little and ran a bit on the noisy side. it was a little scarry, keeping in mind this was the only 70 print of war and peace in the US.

Josh

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 11-04-2001, 07:35 PM:

Oh, and did I mention this film is around 6 hours long?
24 reels.....wow

Josh

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 11-05-2001, 03:34 AM:

FYI our next 70mm screenings are Nov 17 Who Framed Roger Rabbit as part of Bradford Animation Festival http://www.baf.org.uk/ and in December two screenings of Hello Dolly on the 5th & 6th