This is topic Favorite & Worst Automation in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 10-26-2001, 12:04 PM:
I don't know if this topic has ever had talk about, but my favorite was the Cinemancca Mark IV....GCC use a lot of these, I knew many techs hated these, but I like them , I could do things with these no other automation could do...The worst was for me was the Kelmar Maxi series with the cams, whoooaaa weeee if the C/O was too long....I smelled smoke !!! that when the fuses was added !! The Hi-Tech would be third.....a Good idea, but all the relays are solder in place, switches is a little light !!
Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 10-26-2001, 12:17 PM:
The Mk IV is from Cinemation (British), not Cinnemeccanica (Italian). It was developed from a tire manufacturing control system. A very early one was installed at the old Burlington (MA) Mall GCC, and it had the tire machine markings underneath the cinema ones. I always liked the part of the manual that warned a certain misoperation would "initiate a horrific chain of events".------------------
Larry Shaw
Boston Light & Sound, Inc.
North American Distributor of Kinoton GmbH
290 North Beacon Street
Boston, MA 02135-1990
Tel: 617-787-3131 x104 Fax: 617-787-4257
E-Mail: larry@blsi.com
Web site: http://www.blsi.com/kinoton
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-26-2001, 12:50 PM:
I've quiet a few of the Cinemations of verious vintages under my care these days. Not that they need much care, they just clunk and whirr on and on.Of the modern systems I've seen, Strongs CNA200 is the pick of the bunch in my book. Operators love it cuz you talk to it in plain english.
Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 10-26-2001, 01:14 PM:
Worst Automation for me: ORC don't remeber the model number. All of the Relays were on Daughter Cards that plugged into a Motherboards in a Vertical fashion. These came with the ORC Optimax2000 Console that were installed in Cinemark theatres in the Late 80's just before they switched to the CFS consoles. In fact the Dollar Cinema 7 in Sunrise Mall in Corpus Christi may have been the last install for these POS's. The only other Automation I have had the Luck of dealing with have been the various types of UA's Homebuilt series, which Included Ed Glenn's Eagle and Eagle 2 Automations, of which I can say I likes the Eagle 2 version. Tough as nails, had a couple of shortcomings in it but nice none the less. Charlie Andersons UA Automation was elementary at best, but then again all his stuff was built in the era before Dolby stereo and Half Lights. So his stuff did not need to do alot. Hence his automation generally consisted of 5 3p3t Octal based relays and a set of Momentary return to off start and show switches. With a couple of on-off-on switches to select what the inboard and outboard cues did. Like I said cheap, but again did what it was designed to do at the time. The last one is the Kelmar/Christie AM7C and AM7 models that were installed in Christie consoles or sold as wall mount units for UA based on Charlie Andrson prototype for an Auto start feature. I have tried to get Documenation out of both Kelmar and Chritie for this particular POS, but I keep getting told that this was a Custom designed Automation for UA. I did have a brief stint with Century Theatres in Corpus before moving to Austin, in which Christie 3Q automation was used. Nice and efficient unit, I just hate anything that has a Center of frame cue as a funtion of it. I like what I have read on the Pennywise and the Strong/Eprad CNA series of stuff. I would not hesitate in purchasing one of these for the Howard Theatre, nor would I hesitate in buying a Component Engineering TA10 either. Would love to get my hands on a coulpe of Ed Glenn's Eagle 2's that he installed in Strong Highlight consoles for UA in the Mid 80's and Rand Theatres in the late 80's. There is my Two Cents worth Don. By the way the Northwoods 6 in Houston, I did a research on it in the Chronicle and could not come up with any info on it. It was on 59 and what cross street? and is the Building itself still there? Want to try and locate it next time I am in Houston to at least get a picture of it. It was sold 4 or 5 times, Who originally built it and who closed it? Sorry for all the questions about it, but I am a bit of a Theatre History fanatic.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-26-2001, 02:18 PM:
Cinemation MKIV hands down the best followed by the canadian knock off ShowmanII
The Raven stuff was reliable and easy to service
Least favorite
HiTech and the Eprad Co-operators(uncooperative )
Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 10-26-2001, 04:44 PM:
Hey Larry your right Cinemation, I thought of the correct name right after I push the submit button ...William the Northwood is or was on Eastex freeway/US 59 north & Aldine Mailroute Road, first owner: Jimmie Duncan (now decease)
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-26-2001, 05:43 PM:
The only cinemation I didn't like was the MKx single machine unit
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 10-26-2001, 07:32 PM:
My all time favorite is the EPRAD CO-OPERATOR (I love these!) followed by Component's TA-10.Worst is the Raven Mini-Pec's and Commanders (yuk!)
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-26-2001, 11:35 PM:
The best for me has been the Eprad Ultimation by far. Its been the most reliable unit I've ever installed. The worst for me was definately the Hi-Tech stuff...Switches are used that can barely handle 12 volts at 1 amp are typically used to switch AC for motors in this automation...Hi-Techs reasoning was that you are supposed to switch a contactor with the switch...well goofuses why didn't you put one in the automation in the forst place like everyone else did??..... Relays are all soldered in too...overall I can't believe these are still being sold by anyone. 2nd worst would easily be the Eprad Co-operator. They really did nothing that a simple relay couldn't handle and as Gord said they were on occasion uncoperative.
Mark
Posted by Serge Bosschaerts (Member # 298) on 10-27-2001, 04:45 AM:
Cinemation Mark IV is still going strong here after already more than 20 years off loyal service in a local cinema.
I've also worked with some modern automation but they can't beat the Cinemation, simple to program and it can control almost anything.
I've even heard a story about an operator in England who uses one to 'automate' his kitchen at home ... 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 10-27-2001, 11:02 AM:
Agree with Gordon (and others) about the Cinemation being a great automation; only problem was trying to teach newbies how to pin-program it.Never operated a "bad" automation. If you use them them way they were indended, they worked OK. I seen installations where a simple automation was forced to control a fairly complex setup (two curtians, three-color footlights, side and center auditourim lighting) and the results were poor. But that's the fault of the person who spec'ed the equipment.
We're starting to use the CineQ (microprocessor controlled) automations from Xetron. They have a flat panel touch screen. You can remote control any other projector (stand at one projector and change the volume, lens turret, sound format, etc. at any other.) Saves your feet at large 'plexes!
I saw a pretty good home-made automation at a theater many years ago. Had some good features and good manual controls if someting went wrong. Weird part was the operator could not read; he was completely illiterate. So, none of the 10-12 switches had labels on them.
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-27-2001, 11:17 AM:
The pegboards are fine - fairly easy to understand and fix - but rather obsolete. The brute force relay logic lasts a long time, remembers where the show is through blackouts, and is hard to kill with electrical spikes. Oh well - newer is always better, right?
I haven't seen every automation made but the TA10 and CNA200 have been good here so far. The CNA200 is definitely a bit too much for most applications, and we've seen a fair number of bad screens - at least you can do things with the screen dead as opposed to the cineQ with the touchscreen...
The only one I would say I dislike is the SPA-7. Fine if it works, but the schematics are really really bad and trying to troubleshoot one is an exercise in frustration.
There is one pegboard - not the cinemation I think but English? that has the terminals just numbered sequentially with no reference to what relay or whatever they go to. I had to attempt to add a slide projector function to that without a manual. Not. The Showman for instance has terminals with numbers that obscurely tell you what they connect to. This isn't really a problem as I should have a manual if I use one, but...
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-27-2001, 03:15 PM:
I personally don't think the pegboards are obselete since they work day in and out.
The English Pegboard was Cinemation by essolodomatic
THe ShowmanII was a Canadian hybrid developed at GeneralSound by FamousPlayers head projectionist Lorne Greere.
Odeon had there own one called the BTS that was made in Montreal by Best Theatre Supply
Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 10-27-2001, 03:41 PM:
I liked that pegboard design, you can make it do things it wasn't intended to do...such as in the mid to late 70's when I was a projectionist, if you got a Dolby print at a mono theatre (before format standard)you had to crank up the gains on the pre-amp & power amps to get a decent house volume, & houses with the Century 50-watt amplifiers this was a little tough to do, we had reel to reel, I wired into the pre-amp volume control via a second volume control & a relay, program the Cinemation to turn on/off the second volume control with cue tape, this was for trailers, the vsecond volume control was to run the trailers at the preset normal volume & when the feature started, & the automation got the cue, it would turn off the relay which now had the orignal volume control back in circuit at full volume, I did this because I would remember to turn down the volume when theading the trailer reel but forgot to turn it back to full with the second reel of the feature, as soon as vthe intercom phone buzz you knew what you forgot to do, so I install this relay/volume control & let the automation control it....this only happen a few times before the sound track was standard and any house that got a Dolby print that was a mono theater did not have this problem anymore, so the relay/volume control was retired from service...I couldn't do that with automations that came out in the 80's, such as ORC VA-101, Kenco, & a few others....I still like the Cinemation MK-IV, I don't see many around anymore....
Posted by Wes Hughes (Member # 981) on 10-27-2001, 10:39 PM:
The EPRAD Co-Operator is a classic machine !!! I have a bunch of those...and I really like to use them in one-screen houses that don't have a lot of functions to automate. I have hardly ever had a problem with them...they are so simple!Does anyone use Kelmar Series 7 automation? I have installed these in the last two theatres we have opened, and use them in my 5-plex....they are cam/relay based, but they work very well and can handle many functions. Anyone else use them?
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 10-27-2001, 11:13 PM:
Wes:We have the Xetron Maxi-7 automations at the Franklin Plaza twin theater in Shelton, Wash. They run quite nicely and these particular ones were originally designed for two machine changeovers, but were converted for single machine use.
I have converted many old dual projector Co-operators for use with single projectors.
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 10-28-2001, 09:53 AM:
I got a great kick on building my own automation, my first attempt was a massive patch cord system which operated for two years until I made a Cinemation type unit. This had the approval of Bernard Bentley the inventor of Cinemation, who most kindly supplied the 30 x 48 matrix board. Runs the whole show tirelessly for 15 years now. Great Fun! I understand that ABC Cinemas installed Gretton Ward automation, which I would like to see operating somewhere. As I would a Strongs CNA 200 that Pete speaks highly of. I just love automation providing it is always 99.9% reliable.
Anyone have nicknames for their units? ours is Basil. The Granada, Kingston was Percy, named after the chief engineer of the circuit.
Poor quality pictures due to age.
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-28-2001, 01:18 PM:
Best autos i have ever worked with are the Component Engineering TA-10, and ...dare I say it... the <gasp> CFS full feature automations (when they are working properly, they are fantastic) The unfortunate downside to the CFS is of course they are no longer in business, so as the units die (which will happen with time, i am certain) they will be replaced with something else, hopefully TA-10s 
Worst autos: Anything with cams and motors. Christie AM5, Xetron Maxi 10 and earlier, yada yada yada.
The HiTech HTD11 comes a very close second in the 'worst' category, and is the worst of the camless models I have had the [dis]pleasure of dealing with.
Other mentions:
Strong/Eprad CPA-10: Incredibly steep learning curve, cheap membrane panel buttons and an LCD display that you have to get down on your knees to read if the thing is installed in a console, but it works very well and reliably.
-Aaron
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-28-2001, 04:14 PM:
Aaron,
That is the same LCD display that is used in the Ultimation and it is meant to be wall mounted! Thats why they can't be seen. It even came out of the same factory. I'm not a big fan of the TA-10, but they are sometimes passable. I don't like the idea of the diode matrix cause if you need to make a change in a complex system it can be a pain. They also do not interface directly to an item that needs a constant hold and that makes for additional relays and a bigger kluge. None of the extras are necessary with the Strong or Eprad stuff as thats choosen in the software when you set it up. As for CFS I'm still not convinced they made anytihng that was good...if they did they'd still be around.
Mark @ GTS