Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: SMPTE prices

This is topic SMPTE prices in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 11-09-2001, 12:22 PM:

Here's a question out of curiosity: why is SMPTE's stuff so expensive? I would love to read their projection manual, but I can't afford it, and my company isn't going to buy it. Also, my company only supplies RP40 test film to techs, not to each theatre, because of how expensive it is. I think if the stuff were a little more affordable, it might be more readily available and therefore used more frequently.

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 11-09-2001, 12:39 PM:

You can buy a bargain multimeter at Radio Shack which might be off in its readings, or you can buy a Fluke or analog Simpson. You get what you pay for, and high accuracy and verification aren't low budget items. Compare the cost of the test film to a lens, and suddenly the film is inexpensive - especially if it tells you that expensive lens needs repair prior to paying the invoice.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-09-2001, 01:54 PM:

Many of the SMPTE test films are made on pin-registered printers, on special order film stock. Printing and processing volumes are low, so they don't get a volume discount from the labs they use. Films are carefully QC'd by SMPTE, requiring precise instrumentation.

Have you priced college textbooks lately? Again, low volume specialty/technical books do not enjoy the benefit of volume discounts.

SMPTE is a not-for-profit organization, with test films, publications, membership dues and conference registration fees being the primary income to cover all the other expenses of staff, standards coordination, conferences, local sections, and the SMPTE Journal.
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/notes/oct2001/pytlak.shtml

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-09-2001, 03:04 PM:

The SMPTE materials as John P has stated are basically low volume, high quality expendable test tools which should be kept relitively fresh for accurate use. Schneider Optical also offers a lens test film which if you saw the price you figured it must have gold plated sprocket holes.....you get what you pay for.........
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-09-2001, 06:15 PM:

I once had RP-40 printed at a lab just for the purpose of aligning and filing aperature plates. It works out to be alot cheaper and you actually get a pretty good print off of the RP-40. Definately good enough to align and file by. Saves a ton of money!! Sort of like making a dupe of software and saving the orignal as a just in case sort of thing.
MArk @ GTS

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-09-2001, 08:01 PM:

John P may know....

I would think making a dupe of 35-PA would violate SMPTE's copyright (ie the right to copy).

Heck, They charge an arm and a leg for just their RPs, EGs and such...if it was OK to copy them, then why would anyone purchase them?

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-09-2001, 08:28 PM:

Well I've never seen a copyright anyplace on any frames or on the literature for that matter but there could be. This is also a fairly common practice I have seen for for some film productions to do. I've been on films that have the RP-40 printed onto the productions standard framing leader. This also gives you the same film thickness to work with as the real stuff so there's no refocusing to mess with.

Steve Guttag said .....
"if it was OK to copy them, then why would anyone purchase them?" Because one still needs the precision aspect of the film now and then for real critial evaluation as well.......a good dupe is no less inferior in frame dimensions and steadiness than is needed for projector alignment or plate filing.

Perhaps SMPTE should offer to its customers a less expensive film for this purpose. But oh heck we wouldn't want a new film tool to appear in this e-cinema day and age would we...? Its fine to use the precision tool when needed but that is only once and a while. You don't use a micrometer to align rack plates.....
The prints I've had made and seen on films have looked really nice. I just wouldn't use it for resolution checks though......but when done on a wet gate printer it looks excellent!!
Mark

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-09-2001, 09:01 PM:

I recall that SMPTE did threaten action about ten years ago when someone was SELLING copies made from the film. I think they were more concerned that the poor quality of the prints would confuse people, and damage the reputation of the film.

Making a wet gate print on a continuous contact printer WILL have the right image dimensions, but without pin registration, the frame may be shifted from the standard (SMPTE 195), especially in the vertical direction. Likewise I would be wary of using a print to evaluate unsteadiness, as you have added the unsteadiness of the printer.

Certainly, a print would not be a good test of resolution, since the contrast would be way too high, "blowing out" the detail in the resolution targets.

Of course, unless a reversal print film is used, you will get a NEGATIVE image of the chart.

Labs use the film for setting up their optical printers. That is why the film has BH perfs. (I've suggested a separate version with print film (KS-1870) perfs, but there was little interest).

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 11-10-2001, 12:17 AM:

I suggested a cheaper, simple test film, but no one seemed interested (see RP40 Test Film topic 02-12-2000.)

I really like Mark's idea; aligning and filing aperature plates is 95% of what I use 35PA for!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-10-2001, 10:02 AM:

The SMPTE did have a cheaper duped version of it's alignment films (not 35-PA but I think it was 35-MR).

John, I think there will be renewed interest in the KS-1870 version of B&W 35-PA. There was some discussion about it at the last P-3 meeting. I think that the telecine folks will have to get a special version for them in BH-1866 perfs.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-10-2001, 03:35 PM:

I want it on CS perfs

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-10-2001, 07:04 PM:

Gordon said: "I want it on CS perfs".

Why???

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-10-2001, 07:16 PM:

the main reason it will tell you in a hurry if the machine doesn't have them
also i find with machines with a cs intermittent it would be easier to line up the guides

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-10-2001, 08:17 PM:

It's probably been close to two decades since anyone bought any print film perforated with CS perforations! I wonder if Stan D's printer can be equipped with CS registration pins?