This is topic Pro-35 film shaking on screen in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Josh Mitoska (Member # 1086) on 01-07-2002, 03:13 AM:
I so wish I could afford new projectors! Can anyone give me some pointers? One of my 3 great Ballantyne Pro-35's has the film shaking on the screen quite badly. If I adjust the framer all the way up or down it helps a little. Everything is clean.
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-07-2002, 07:23 AM:
Time to replace the framing coupler.......
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-07-2002, 09:02 AM:
Yes, if the picture is moving vertically, then you do have a bad framing coupler. This is a common failure on Ballantynes.
Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 01-07-2002, 09:13 AM:
I have a pair of those Ballantyne's here, and Richard and Ken are most likely correct. The framing coupler has a plastic part that looks like two wheels held together by four shafts (forming a sort of cylinder shape.) One by one, over time, these shafts break, and as more break, the picture becomes more unsteady. If your image is quite unsteady, and I'm guessing it is, you have at least two of those shafts broken, and that coupler will need to be replaced. If you need to keep running before you can replace the part, try running film with the framing lever in different positions. Sometimes you can find a "sweet spot" of sorts that will steady the image a bit more. Good luck!
Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 01-07-2002, 01:15 PM:
Check to see if the framing knob is vibrating, usually when the coupler is bad it will. If you feel no vibration what so ever and the picture is just as jumpy no matter what position the framing knob is in then you most likely need another intermittent. Another thing to check is the outboard bearing on the intermittent sprocket assy. There is a knurled nut that makes direct contact with that bearing. Put your fingers on it and feel for vibrations. excessive vibration on the outboard usually is a symptom of a bad coupler or a bad outboard bearing, or both!! If your coupler is bad, request a 2 perf coupler instead of a four perf. That means you get twice as much plastic in the coupler bobin, and hopefully it will last longer. Good luck!
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-07-2002, 05:44 PM:
Yes any of the above mentioned things can cause the problem. I used to work with pro 35's for 7 1/2 years. Also depending on the amount of jump check your lateral guide pad in the gate trap and make sure that there is no dirt build up and no deep grooves developing. You can rotate those pads eight times 4 0n each side. Also check gate tension. But most likely it is the plastic Bobbin that has worn out. Also there is an adjustment on the intermitents that moves the shaft up against the star shaft. Make sure this little knob has not become loose and worked it's self out. This can cause jumping problems also and the projector will run louder than normal.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-07-2002, 07:15 PM:
I agree with the coupler being shot. Also, place your fingers on the outboard bearing arm, and if it feels like it is hammering, the bearing is also worn out.When you replace the coupler, be sure to loosen the framing drag plug. If you fail to do so, you may damage the coupler you are trying to install. This plug is located in the rear fo the projector casting. If you never changed one before, I would advise checking the manual.
Josh, is your gate tension correct? That adjustment will also work loose from time to time, and give you a very nasty picture jump on the screen.
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 01-07-2002, 07:23 PM:
Why would you want new machines? Pro 35's are a great machine, their only weak point being the framing coupler. outside of that from what I've heard they are damn close to indestructable. also because of the larger star and cam in the machine, picture registration is usually quite better that say simplex built today. it is impossible to burn up the shutters, but they will warp slightly. they are also quiet as a mouse. When Paul was out here over christmas, he said our Kodak 285 16mm machine runs about as quiet as his pro-35's. thats pretty quiet!!Josh
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-07-2002, 08:51 PM:
Oh, I'll put a Simplex intermittent up against most anything. At least one properly adjusted.Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-07-2002, 09:04 PM:
"My Pro 35 is shaking up and down......"
They're supposed to! Just kidding........Its a long running joke actually that started at Moyer Theatres years ago. They also called it the "Original Rock And Roll projector" too.
Actually if you replace the coupler also replace the outboard bearing, no matter what, its felt dust cap, and any other hardware you may need to at that time. Be careful putting the new coupler onto the spleens. The new one WILL be more difficult to mate to them than pulling the old worn one off. We stock all these parts if you need them.
Josh,
Pro 35's are good runners but VERY expensive to repair when something does really go wrong. The big deal with them is that after about 12 to 15 years the machines HAVE to be rebuilt as the seals wear out and the O rings suffer from compression set. This necessitates a complete tear down. New sprocket shafts, shutter shafts, etc are really costly for this machine. I've also seen quite a few broken star wheels in these machines as well. Some will keep going even with it broken, but when it piles up the movement parts are well over a grand alone. The new star is webbed, but I've seen em break too. Ususlly the shutter gear, and intermittent drive gears strip as well when this happens I don't hold a thing against them, they are great machines, and 15 years is a long time. But just be prepared to spend alot to get what has to be put into them for another 15 years of service.
Steve,
Actually the newer X-L movements are no wheres near as good as the older ones were. The cam, especially, is no longer made with the extreme accuracy that the old ones were. Simplex had a nack for doing these critical parts exactly. right. The older ones that had the cam radius screwed down with allen screws were the best units made! The metals were also harder too. I've tested the hardness of many newer and older components myself!
Personally I'd take a Century C or SA movement any day over anything else(Except Kinoton). I can rebuild em and hand fit all the bushings, etc perfectly, and they are usually dead steady, much steadier by comparison than a factory X-L. The Century gate also has more going for it IMHO.
MArk @ GTS
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-07-2002, 09:43 PM:
Hi, Mark. I never had any major problems with my PRO-35's. I found them easy to work on, the seals and bearings can be obtained for practically peanuts from the local bearing shop. (including the outboard bearing which costs about 6 bucks or so.) Seals are about a 1.50.
I changed one intermittant in 22 years, and that was because some doofus rammed the adjustment tight with a pair of vice-grips and screwed up the ball in the movement. When that happened, the starwheel came in contact with a portion of the cam that it was not supposed to.
I changed one shutter gear in the last 10 years, and that was because the shutter snagged a wire feeding the CO douser. I never had to change a vertical shaft, but I did have to change a couple of the older sprocket shafts because of oil seal wear.
Some of the real old Pro-35's had some soft shafts, and the oil seals did cut into them.
I find Pro-35 parts are cheap to maintain, as compared to others. I defend Ballentyne PRO-35's, they can be fixed with a screwdriver and a hammer.
Yes, they do leak oil. So does a Simplex. So does a Brenkert. So does those damn Centurys that have flakey movements.
I'll take a factory spec Pro-35 with the new gate over a factory spec XL or Century anytime.
I changed out 5 Cineshitties with Pro-35's in Post Falls, Idaho and the kids love those things. All the Cineshitties I took out of service came to pass because the movements were run without oil, and they burned up.
Paul
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-07-2002, 09:58 PM:
Mark,I'll stand by what I said...I'll take an XL intermittent over a Century and just about any other...I've had no steadiness problem out of them and the service life of Simplex intermittent due to it's operation in an oil bath seem to be a bout 10:1 over others.
As to gate design, the Century JJ is much better than the SA which looks like someone guessed, got it wrong and then fixed it. About the only draw back to the Simplex gate was the fixed intermittent shoe. Strong has now fixed that so that the shoe can have a perfect fit to the intermittent which will dramatically increase steadiness. The Century was clearly designed by someone that liked fixing things.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-07-2002, 10:25 PM:
Steve said:The Century was clearly designed by someone that liked fixing things.
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LMAO! Right on the money, Steve! 
Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 01-08-2002, 06:27 AM:
Josh, it is like everyone said, the coupler and/or intermittent may be bad....it took me 20-years to learn this but if you and your projection staff will not use the framing handle each time to frame the picture, learn to have the intermittent in the stop position & frame the feature in frame each time without using the framing, the Ballentyne machine will last for years before this problem comes up again, the problem is framingm Ballantyne machines do not like to be frame, I had a problem at a 6-screen theatre, all ,machines was being rebuild every year, I had the projection staff to do this, it has been over three years now, I have not replace a coupler or intermittent there, they all frame the picture in frame everytime, I have been told they do not use the framing now, all problems went away !!
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-08-2002, 03:50 PM:
Don Sneed is absolutely correct. Keep your paws off the framing knob, and that pro-35 will run for years!!!!! Thread the machine in frame like it is supposed to be.
Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 01-08-2002, 05:38 PM:
Don indeed makes an excellent point. Provided you've made sure there aren't any half frame splices at the head of the reel, you should rarely have to use that framing knob. It is sometimes unavoidable when subtitles and poor labwork come into play, but otherwise, just work to make sure you, and anyone else that uses the projector, thread the film properly every time.
Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 01-08-2002, 09:25 PM:
Im glad to hear good things about the pro 35. I just bought 4 of these at a good price. All in good working condition.Question: Can a curved gate be purchased for these?
Ive had better luck with overall focus using curved gates.
Any input appreciated!
Thanks!
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-08-2002, 10:02 PM:
I have not heard of a curved gate specifically for the PRO-35. Josh Jones knows of a Ballentyne 70 in one of the theaters he worked at, and I have seen that machine. I don't know if it had a curved gate or not, but I think it does. . Maybe he can answer that. Paul
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-08-2002, 11:30 PM:
Paul,
The bearing that Strong specifies for the outboard intermittent assy is an ABEC 7 Barden bearing. If you know where to get that bearing for 7 bucks let me know please!!! Perhaps there is a surplus store near you that has them. Although you can forgo replacing the shafts(Shutter and sprocket) in an old Ballantyne it is the correct thing to do when you pile alot of years on them. Simply replacing the seal and letting it run against a shaft that has a groove chewed into it form 15 years of running is not the right thing to do. It WILL wear the new seal out alot faster.
Steve,
At least the Century movements don't have those stupid small fibre gears to strip out....Granted, it is really a fuse system of sorts that keeps the star in one piece in a pile up though.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-09-2002, 12:01 AM:
Mark, are you speaking of the bearing in the black outboard arm, or the orginal silver one? I have two bearings for the silver ones, I got them about three years ago from my wholesale bearing dealer. Price may be higher now, but I don't think they would exceed 12 bucks each now. I'll re-price them to see what they are.This past Holiday Season, Josh and I had an old Simplex E-7 we tore down and cleaned up. We had to buy three bearings for it, and the total price (retail) for the bearings was about 40 bucks with tax. The small bearing on the front end of the shutter shaft was the most expensive, maybe 15 bucks or so, maybe a little higher. The other two big ones were about normal for what you would expect. If we have had to get these bearings from a theater supply house, they would have cost us an arm and a leg, plus shipping.
I am not bashing Strong International, but it seems like some of things they sell have an unreasonable mark-up. Like micro-switches for 40 bucks a pop when you can get the same ones from other sources for 1/4 that amount.
Yes - the oil seal thing you are mentioning - I only had a groove wear on the real old shafts, that were standard issue with serial no's in the low three digits. (under 200). I never had a problem with the newer ones grooving out. But it is easy to install the seal so it does not ride in the groove. Beats buying another shaft.
Biggest problem I saw with seal changes is getting the new seal over the lip of the shaft without damaging the seal. I have ruind a few seals out of laziness. A special inserter can be easily made by a machine shop to prevent the damage.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-09-2002, 09:08 AM:
Even though it looks straight the Pro 35 gate uses the same radial curve that Motiograph did. A very small amount of curvetowards the lamp put in the lateral plane not vertical like most other gates
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-09-2002, 10:54 AM:
Paul,
When you re-price the bearings be sure to get the Barden price as thats what the spec calls for. I believe its the same bearing on both the new or the old arm assy. Using any bearing less than an ABEC 7 in that spot will allow for sloppy tolerances on the outboard splien shaft and possible image unsteadiness. A lesser grade bearing also won't last as long. All the other bearings in the head are quite inexpensive though. I definately agree with you on the older serial number machines. In past years these are the one I most often encountered, and many were in the shoop for total rebuilds. I have seen later date machines break star wheels though. These were machines that did not have a projectionist attending to them either. The upper and lower shaft are about 120.00 each and the shutter shaft a bit less. Yes, a thin tapered metal cover slid over the ends of the shafts makes assembling them a cinch. Also use a light coating of approved silicon grease(that won't swell the rubber up) on the new "O" rings when you re-intsall the bearing caps into the main casting. If you install them dry it will ruin them. With all new seals and new "O" rings installed properly the machine can be made practically leak proof for a long time as was intended.
I too actually like the Ballantynes quiote a bit. I'm going to be installing an 8 perf 70mm head in a couple of months.
The odd thing is that the Pro 35 coupling/framer is based on the Phillips FP-20(which Ballantyne used to distribute). Its just that Phillips did it right and Ballantyne didn't. Had Ballantyne used a bronze coupling like Phillips did it would last almost indefinately.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-09-2002, 12:16 PM:
Thanks for the info, Mark. I'll look into that bearing situation. When I ordered them, we just used the number off the old bearing. Actually, a couple of other things of general info about the frameing coupler:
Make sure that it is inserted correctly. Some people don't know the grooves in the bobbin have an opposite twist. I know of one idiot that didn't know that, and drove the damn thing in with a hammer. It not only busted the bobbin all to hell, and it also damaged the intermittant spline shaft. A good way to determine the right end is to put the coupler on the intermittant sprocket shaft, and then insert the whole thing in the projector casting "very carefully". Don't pull it in place with the screws, you might warp a shaft if you try that. Also, before you insert it, loosen the outboard bearing adjustment a little.
If you rebuild your own couplers, be sure to inspect the thrust bearings and washers inside the coupler. The washers could be worn into a groove. Replace them if they are. As a rule of thumb, I order new thrust bearings and washers when I rebuild a coupler.
When you assemble the coupler, don't screw the end cap in too tight. It'll bind your new bearings, leading to an early failure. I set mine to thumb nail tightness after I oil the coupler up nice and oozy, then back off until the bobbin turns without and noticable drag. Usually, that back-off is less than the thickness of a red hair. (ahem) I have had good luck doing it this way, and if anyone has a better way, please let me know.
Mark's comment about using a thin coat of specified grease on the "O" rings is an excellent idea.
Paul
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-16-2002, 10:14 AM:
Alan Gouger said: "Im glad to hear good things about the pro 35. I just bought 4 of these at a good price. All in good working condition."Did those come from the old Hoyts Cine-8 on Ridge Road West in Rochester? They go back a ways, but they were well cared for.
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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion