This is topic 16mm Projectors - which one should I buy? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-14-2002, 01:14 PM:
I'm going to a "Surplus School Equipment" auction on Saturday morning and they have a ton of 16mm projectors up for bid. After searching the forums here for anything related to 16mm, I did come up with several threads, but are there any particular makes or models I should look for or pass up?I plan on using these things in my basement, not for any commercial application. What about films?? Are there any good prints of anything worth watching on 16mm?
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Barry Floyd
Floyd Entertainment Group
Nashville, Tennessee
(Drive-In Theatre - Start-Up)
Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 01-14-2002, 02:04 PM:
I'm assuming that the school will have some old Bell and Howell 16mm machines. When I took care of the projectors for my junior high school in the 1980-1982 time period, we has several "autoload" models and one "slot load" model. The "slot load" type was much less problematic and much less likely to jam and damage film. If an "autoload" machine has not been well-maintained, I'd not recommend putting a treasured print through it. We had one jam that damaged a print in the "slot load" machine in a period of two years. We had jams in the autoload type every two or three weeks.By "autoload", I mean a machine where you push a lever, turn it on, feed the film in the front and it gets pulled through, hopefully emerging from the rear of the machine. By "slot load", I mean a machine where you push a lever down, manually load the film through a slot (very easy), then pull the lever back, and it's ready to go. The autoload mechanism misthreaded way too often, while the slot load typically eliminated misthreading, and if misthreaded, the slot load projector would not typically turn on until the problem was corrected.
I should say that I have not seen or touched either type of machine since spring 1985.
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Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-14-2002, 02:06 PM:
Look for the newer models--you should be able to get nice slot-load Eikis or Elmos for under $75-100 each. The older manual-load B&H (100 and 300 series) and RCA models are good, too. Some people like the Kodak Pageants (I don't). Keep an eye out for anything "big" (xenon, carbon-arc, MARC-300, etc.) or any scope lenses; even if you don't want this stuff, you should be able to sell it on Ebay or in Big Reel and make a decent profit if you can get it at fire-sale prices.Don't waste time with the auto-load B&H models or anything that looks like it has been abused. There's so much good equipment out there available so cheaply that it isn't worth risking good prints to junk machines.
Be sure to get rewind bench stuff (splicers [both tape and cement], rewinds, sync block, etc.) if possible.
In addition to the usual sources for used prints, you can buy lab-new prints of some classic films in the public domain (mostly silents) from Blackhawk distributors (e.g. Festival Films, etc.). They aren't cheap, but the quality is usually pretty good.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-14-2002, 02:19 PM:
One of my first jobs in the film field was repairing 16mm projectors for a large school district in the Chicago Burbs. The good ones are either Eiki's, or Elmo's. Hell & Bowels were always a pain to get parts for, and to work on. The Eiki's are a cinch to repair, If the belts are bad just buy the correct size "O" ring as a replacement for it. The "O" rings will alst longer than Eiki's belts will anyway. The Elmos never did break down during the three years that I worked there.....
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Dennis Atkinson (Member # 345) on 01-14-2002, 03:52 PM:
I love my Elmo. I just bought a brand new zoom lens for it and have a
Singer 16-D scope lens also. Please, never use a B&H autoshreader!My other 16 is a Kodak Pageant. Easy to switch to silent speed and it has the adjustment for the soundtrack alignment at your finger tips.
Both the Kodak & Elmo will run shrunken film fine. Eiki's don't like shrunken film and are not forgiving.
Dennis
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 01-14-2002, 05:57 PM:
Check out the thread on Kodak Pageants. Several versions incluiding Marc 300s. Excellent machines. Stay away from Hell and Bowells!
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-14-2002, 06:18 PM:
Hey, now wait a minute! I'm a factory trained Bell & Howell man. I feel they are some of the finest machines made. For info, here is the real good B&H models:manual threading: 179, 185, 285, 399, 535, 540, 614 JAN, 1540, 1579
Autoload: 552, 1552, 1595, 2595
Slotload: don't buy, nothing but trouble
Arc lamp models: 140 (carbon arc), 566 (Marc-300), 567 (Marc-350), xenon JAN, and 1568 (Gemini-300)
On any of the B&H machines in the 1500 or 2500 series, turn on the motor and listen or feel for heavy vibrations. That's an indication of a "Cracked" worm gear which is an expensive and time consuming repair.
If you spot any Eiki machines, look for any with an "EX-" as part of the model number. That indicates a Xenon Lamp model.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-14-2002, 07:14 PM:
To add to Ken's comments: the later-model B&H slotload machines are really Eikis with a B&H nameplate. I think that these are the 3000 series. They are fine. The earlier B&H slotloads are junk.Personally, I like the B&H manual-thread machines, but can't stand the auto-shredders. The real "win" with B&H is that there are plenty of lenses for these out there that are cheap. A scope lens for a B&H should be only about $50 or so, whereas a scope lens and bracket for an Elmo will cost several times the value of the machine.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-14-2002, 09:11 PM:
If you see any of the Phillips EL5000 portables grab them they are an excellent machine. Also the Fumeo protables are very nice
Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 01-14-2002, 10:43 PM:
I'd put my vote in for the Kalart-Victor 70-, 75-, 80-, or 82-series projectors, smooth-running machines with unique "safety film trips" which stop the mechanism if a loop goes south to prevent further sprcket hole damage. (The 70-15 model is by far the most common of the line). Threading the Kalart-Victor is kind of an acquired taste, though, with its inside-out film path. These machines are not terribly difficult to service, if you can find parts.Kodak Pageants and Eikis are still worthwhile; an EX-series xenon Eiki would be quite a find. Manual-threading Bell and Howells are OK, too, as are the 3585s on up (rebadged Eiki SNT/ENT units). But, as mentioned earlier, stay away from Hell and Bowell Autoloads (545-552, 1545-1552, 1585-1592, and 2585-2592)!
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-15-2002, 11:12 AM:
One of the 1970s manual-load Eikis would be my first choice. They're the easiest 16mm film paths to keep clean and the film-friendliest of any claw-advance model I know. Projectors with proper intermittent mechanisms are better (less chance of perfs splitting), but there are hardly any portable ones of the sort that is likely to have been used in schools (Fumeo made a portable version of the HL-3000 but you hardly ever see them around - not over here at any rate).The autoload Eikis are OK and it's still quite easy to lace them up manually, it's just there's more plastic in the way to stop you keeping things clean. The only drawback with Eikis are that you can only lower the speed for silent prints by changing a belt pulley: most of the Bell & Howells have a speed change knob from 24 to 18.
But autoload B & Hs are, as Dennis says, shredders, especially with brittle old acetate or with any print that has even slight perf damage. Furthermore the autoload mechanism itself is very fiddly and cumbersome, with tightly packed springs and guides making it virtually impossible to lace them up by hand. They also have a nasty habit of failing to form the lower loop properly if you feed polyester stock into them. I'd avoid them like the plague.
Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 01-15-2002, 11:25 AM:
If you make a good "find" at the auction make sure you thoroughly clean and test the projector first -- although this probably goes without saying in this forum 
.Run a loop of clean new leader through for a few minutes, then take a good look at the sprocket holes for damage and the picture area for scratches. Listen as the splice goes through for any chattering. Test the loopsetter mechanism by shortening the lower loop by a frame and make sure that it restores the loop quickly without causing damage to the sprockets or picture area. A poorly adjusted loopsetter will turn your gentle manual thread machine into an auto-shredder the first time a damaged sprocket goes through!
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-16-2002, 02:23 AM:
One of the reasons I like the manual-load Eikis so much is because it is possible to form the lower loop so that it clears the auto-loop-reforming device by at least two perfs' worth of film without it striking the surface below, and to form the upper loop so that it has enough clearance to survive getting larger by a perf. So even if one frame is not advanced properly, it can be transferred from the lower to the upper loop without the auto-loop-reformer kicking in and making things worse.However, on the auto-threading versions, the auto-threading mechanism will not form the loops with this clearance and the reformer will rotate at the slightest sign of trouble. It's always worth lacing them up by hand.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-16-2002, 02:34 AM:
I would like to find one of those old RCA 16mm machines that were quite popular in the late 1940's and early 50's. I don't recall the model number, but it is a fantastic machine. Very quiet, easy on film, and extremely reliable.
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 01-16-2002, 07:55 AM:
I have an RCA Hollywood series 16mm projector, with long play 5,000’ spool capacity, which I have run for years and has been extremely reliable. Quiet running with a rock steady picture, I also like the smooth optical framing by the claw movement. The lamphouse was also ideal for converting to a more powerful Q.I light source.
Posted by Randy Loy (Member # 112) on 01-16-2002, 08:24 AM:
Barry, what type of 16mm projector did you end up with? (Uh...it was this PAST Saturday that you were going to the auction, right?)
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-16-2002, 09:04 AM:
Randy, actually the auction is this Saturday the 19th @ 10:00 a.m. . I'm going out to the warehouse today during lunch to look over the projectors and other items available. They also have food-service equipment on the auction block, so hopefully I'll find some missing pieces that we still need for the concession stand. See you in Florida in a couple of weeks.
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Barry Floyd
Floyd Entertainment Group
Nashville, Tennessee
(Drive-In Theatre - Start-Up)
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 01-16-2002, 09:16 AM:
Paul Thompson inquired about the older RCA machines. I'd have to check, but I should have somewhere between 6-8 of them in the attic ranging from the MI-1314 Sr.'s up through the 416's. All are Sr.'s with the exception of one 400 Jr. Mechanically, all are OK, but some have toasted amps (repairable--I've got tons of tubes and a fair assortment of spring belts, clutch pads, exciters, and literally dozens of lamps. I'm not anxious to go through the hassle of boxing them up, but if someone's interested let me know. I don't use them any longer with the exception of one I would keep for silent. jtaylor@mountaindevelopment.com
Posted by Randy Loy (Member # 112) on 01-16-2002, 09:52 AM:
Barry, Debrean and I are both looking forward to seeing you at the conference. All indications so far are that it will be a good conference and a good time. See you there!
Posted by Neil Chue Hong (Member # 685) on 01-16-2002, 12:04 PM:
I've used a number of different 16mm portables (and still do) and I prefer the B&H manual load models. The later Eiki Xenon models are really good for a bright and (reasonably) steady picture but I've had problems with reliability + they weigh a ton!We currently use a Fumeo hd1000 (the baby of the range that Leo mentioned) and it's a lovely machine: manual load, easy to clean, doesn't "yank" the film. I haven't seen many of them appear second-hand, I guess they never really took off in the educational market.
I also have an old Philips machine which is brilliant providing you can stop it chewing up film
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-16-2002, 12:15 PM:
OK guys... here's what happened.
I went to the auction warehouse (which is actually the Metro Nashville Public School Surplus equipment warehouse) during my lunch hour to review the projectors. One of the guys that worked there asked me if I was coming back out on Saturday for the auction? He said, "If you can write me a good check today, you can take as many of these projectors you can find for $2.00 each" right now.How do you pass up a deal like that? I bought every projector I could find.
What did I end up with....
2 - Bell & Howell 1585A's
2 - Bell & Howell 2580's
1 - Bell & Howell "Filmosound"
3- 6' x 6' portable screens
For $10.00 for all 5 of them including the screens, I couldn't loose much.
So.... tell me, how did I do?
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Barry Floyd
Floyd Entertainment Group
Nashville, Tennessee
(Drive-In Theatre - Start-Up)
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 01-16-2002, 02:50 PM:
Well, the price was certainly right, unless you now own 5 dead boat anchors! Seriously, if you're going to run valuable or rare prints I would take any of them that work, sell them on ebay for $50 each or so, and buy one decent, late model Eiki SSL or Elmo 16CL slot and pocket the change. Nothing personal, but I've never liked the 1500-2500 series B&H autoshredders, and it's a bit__ to clean the film path of the 2580 slots. Your call.
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 12-02-2005, 04:51 PM:
It has been 1416 days since the last post.