This is topic State Electrical Inspectors. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr....... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-18-2002, 10:45 PM:
We hired an electrical contractor to wire in a control relay in our ORC consoles so it would allow the LED projector to energize when the projector motor shut down. OK - so far - no problem.Next: The contractor had to obtain an electrical permit from the state to legally do it. Jeeze.....
So the electrician put an ice cube relay (Cutler-Hammer) in the system to allow the receptical feeding the LED projector to switch on when the projector shut down. No problem.
Now the electrical inspector said "fuse the relay coil".....(that circuit is already fused.....) But that's ok - whatever spins the inspector's crank, I guess....
Enter electrical inspector. He did not like the wire. He wanted stranded conductor instead of solid conductor. (what a jerk)
Now he wants documentation on the fuse holder, relay and the relay socket to make sure it is "UL" approved. 
Now the inspector wants us to go back to ORC to get documentation to make sure the ORC Console can handle an extra 1/10 of an amp without overloading and tripping the 60 amp breaker. Grrrrrr...
Pardon me, gentlemen, but I think this electrical inspector should buy a life at "K" Mart.
We hire a contractor to do minor work. We can't legally do any minor work such as this now, as we could get a hefty fine if we did and got caught doing it in this state.
Please don't get me wrong.....I am for electrical safety. All our electrical parts come from commercial suppliers such as Johnstone, Grainger, All-Phase Electric, and Platt Electric. We do our best to stay away from the hardware stores. Much of that hardware store stuff is sub-standard.
Four things come to mind.
1. The electrical inspector has to justify his job.
2. The state makes money on permits.
3. Electrical inspectors like to think they are God.
4. If they have a bad day, their philosophy seems that it is necessary to ruin everybody's day.
To top it off, the electrical contractor we hired is a journeyman, licensed and bonded, and has been doing electrical contracting work for years!
Everyone I talked to while I was trying to get practically non-existant documentation in ice cube relays and minor stuff like that agree that some - but not all inspectors - are a bunch of jerks.
Maybe I have a bad attitude, but if one of these jerks expects me to hire an electrical contractor to change a hard-wired Xenon Power Supply complete with a permit to do so can just KMA!
Paul.
Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 01-19-2002, 01:56 AM:
Hey Paul I can relate to your problem, over a year ago I did an install in Monroe Wa. I knew about the Electrican union & they had to wire in the consoles, but I did not know the low voltage was included, I wired up all (9) sound racks & was on my last one when the electrical inspector came in & ask to see my permit, when I asked what permit, the booth was RED TAG !! one of the union electrican turned me in, yes I was fined $2,000.00 for wiring the sound racks, it was later dismissed, I was told by bthe inspector that we could mount or connect the surround speakers, the electrican was way behind schedule, we were trying to help them not screwed them around when one electrican called the union & report me....well now they had to mount 180 surround speakers & teminate them...whoooaaa weeeee was they pissed off about that, then they had the nerve to ask me to please help them install & connect the speakers so they can meet the opening date without being sued for failing to complete as schedule...I said not only no But HELL NOOOO, you guys turned me in to the electrical inspector & you exspect me to help you guy out, Noooo you were ordered by the inspector to mount & termiate the speakers, put on extra men if you have to, I'm not touching a damn thing....this cost the electrical contractor overtime, extra men power, I told them if the speakers are not connected correctly you'll have to do them again, the booth is Red tag because of you guys, deal with it & have it ready before opening date...it was...of course I did not make friends in Washington State...we had the electrical contractor inspect our sound racks so we can remove the RED TAG, this guy passed it, but didn't have a clue what he was looking at, he took my word that the wiring was correct.....but I now found a loop hole in that law, the next time I work in Washington State I will use it on the sound racks.....so I can relate to the electrical inspection in Wa.....I was told by the inspector anything over 5-volts has to be wired by a license electrican.....I just shook by head & said OK !! You don't want to piss off a inspector !!
Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 01-19-2002, 04:15 AM:
About seven years ago, our company was sub-contracted to install the projection equipment at a new 4-plex in a certain country town up in the sunny Australian state of Queensland. After the install was completed the local fire department turned up (as they do) to give their blessing to the place and were horrified to find that there was no bucket of sand next to each projector. When it was pointed out that at least a quarter of a century had elasped since everyone stopped installing carbon arc projectors in new cinemas, the fire boys insisted that that was irrelevent because it was "still in the regulations" so the buckets of sand had to be there.No amount of argument or persuasion by our people, the cinema management or anyone else within earshot, would make the fire boys budge, so four steel buckets were duly purchased and filled with sand in order for the cinema to be allowed to open. Talk about rednecks!
------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-19-2002, 05:17 AM:
Ray, even in the NEC Book in the USA, there are still many things that seem to be obsolete. But slowly, the "Board" is getting off their gold-plated asses and getting it up to date. Biggest problem I see is the way it was written.
For instance, the NEC book states something to the effect that "rectifiers shall be in a separate room, if at all possible"......but some damn inspector that doesn't know the difference between his ass and a hole in the ground will red-tag the booth because the line was interpertated as "shall be" in a separate room, Period! End of story. Cast in stone. No compromise. None whatsoever.
After that SOB signs off the contractor's work, I just might make a formal complaint to Washington State. We "ditched" one electrical inspector in this area about 10 years ago. He was getting too many complaints, so the State of Washington transferred him to Snohomish County. I wonder if that was the inspector that Don Sneed tangled with?
Don, I'll send you his name via private email, just for the helluva it to see if it is the same person we ditched from Skagit County.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2002, 09:30 AM:
Believe it or not, in Oregon, by law, an individual has to get a permit to even hook up audio speakers at home. I can't say I've ever had any of these problems except for having to do a small punch list for an inspector here and there. The best way around this problem is to have a face to face meeting with the local inspector in his office before you commence any job so you and he are straight on what criteria you HAVE to meet. This way you'll know about any permits that may need to be pulled, things you can and cannot do yourself, etc. Another thing you can do is to put it in your sales/install contract(you're all smart enough to actually have one now aren't you?)so that the customer has to pull any required local permits himself. That gets it off your back and if you are caught it goes back to him. You may have to stop and tour the city/countryside for a day or so while he straightens it out but that beats going to court, or better than having to return to timbuck too to return to court.
Of all the booths I've installed I've actually done 50% of them as complete installs, meaning everything, including conduit runs, from the main breaker panel(s) in the booth to the machines/consoles. Some areas local inspectors don't care if its done that way. Also, most electricians pass out when seeing the insides of a new Strong X-90 equipped with a CNA 100 or similar. All of a sudden you have a new "best buddy" and he could care less if you wire up everything yourself.
At any rate, there are ways to avoid this stuff from happenning. I can't speculate what hapened in Pauls case, perhaps the inspector and electrician had a run in before Pauls theatre, but the best thing that could have happened is that Paul would have hooked em up himself and not said anything about it. Paul is more than capable, and who'd have ever known?
Mark @ GTS
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-19-2002, 10:59 AM:
On one job, the electrical inspector insisted on a big "Frankstein" knife switch to turn off the booth, even though there was a 3-pole circuit breaker and a remote "ASCO" 3-pole relay.Mark is right; it's amazing how seasoned electricans get totally confused when dealing with anything low voltage or even remotely like electronics.
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 01-19-2002, 01:07 PM:
One thing we're fighting here in the State of Washington is revenge by the government for the citizens passing Initiative 695 (I-695). That initiative put a limit on automobile tab charges, which supposedly limited the amount they could charge you for your car tabs (they figured out ways to skirt the limitations). There was an immediate out cry by all the government tax and spend jerks predicting gloom and doom for the economy of the everything that had to do with state sponsered agencies. And I do mean EVERYTHING. So now to punish us they make you buy permits for every little nit picky thing they can think of. I hear farmers have to get a permit to plow their fields, I'm not kidding. Instead of waking up and catching on that the people of the State of Washington are tired of getting screwed by their representatives in the form of the highest taxes in the US (on many things) they turn it into a war, determined to extract as much as they can from us. All those dumbass permits for absurd things that you have to pay for now, are mostly revenue generators, pure and simple.
Rant off------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-19-2002, 02:38 PM:
Greg, Remember that flap about a new tax in Seattle called a "View Tax"? Well, that went over like a lead balloon.
Oh, did you know that you have to buy a permit to remove and dispose a rotten stump from your property? I am not kidding. It is called a "Stump Permit."
Probably was named after the remains of the Governor's genitalia after he sat on a toilet seat equipped with a "Salami Cutter." 
As far as electrical inspectors, and other inspectors as well, is they have a tendency to usurp their authority to settle a personal grudge. In addition, they often use their own interpretation of the code books, rather than to actually find out how it is supposed to be interperted.
Here's another, although it is not really related:
Once I called the sheriff to ticket a car that was so illegally parked in the street that it not only created a traffic safety hazard, but it was partially blocking my driveway. The Deputy came out, looked at it, and did nothing. I called them back, and the dispatcher indicated that the Deputy did not think it was a hazard, and tough luck about it blocking my driveway.
I told the dispatcher that I was not particularly interested in the Deputy's personal opinion, and I was more interested on how the law was written. The dispatcher became a little indignant, and I immediately demanded a meeting with the sheriff himself.
Almost immediately, the Deputy returned, and told the owner to move the car.
Of course, the Deputy watched me like a hawk for the next several weeks. Come to find out, the owner of the car was the Deputy's buddy.
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 01-19-2002, 03:29 PM:
This is a second hand story, but sounds plausible to me. I was
told when I was working at a local TV station in the '60's that
ABC TV network had their projection (telecine) equipment in New Jersey, even though their master control was in Manhattan. Reason being: NYC charged a tax every time a film was shown!!?? 
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 01-20-2002, 11:24 PM:
Last time I hired an electrical contractor, I went downtown for a permit to install a two-phase 40 amp 220volt line. I displayed the permit for more than a year after the electrician installed the equipment. I finally figured the inspector was never going to come out, so I took it out of the window. He showed up three days later. I told him the cat had peed on it.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-20-2002, 11:31 PM:
John Anastasio, what was his reaction? I am dying to find out. John Walsh - At the Lincoln Theater in Mount Vernon,WA one of our power panels for the booth and auditorium had nothing but plug fuses and knife switches. This was neat! Sometimes it was an "electrifying" experience to turn on the lights, especially when the panel light above the panel was burned out. *ZzzZZZZZZzzzzzzzTTTTTttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!
One learns to place one hand in the pocket very fast while firing up the theater for the first show..
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 01-21-2002, 02:42 AM:
Paul, I wonder if your inspector was fishin' for a bribe???The other Paul
"I was a stagehand for 20 years before I realized 'F*ckin Electrician' was two words."
"I used to be an electrician but I'm taking time off to let my eyebrows grow back."
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-21-2002, 06:41 AM:
Kodak often answers requests from theatres having to respond to inspectors demanding that projection rooms be equipped to handle flammable cellulose nitrate film. We point out the information on our website, and note that nitrate print film was discontinued 50 years ago!:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/faq/combustable.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/hse/safeHandle.shtml
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-21-2002, 09:20 AM:
Jeez! It's right in the NEC handbook!IF the booth is going to be a nitrate-safe booth, then all the electrical equipment (that could ignite the film) is to be in a seperate room, etc. etc... IF the booth is NOT going to handle nitrate then you can install electrical equipment in the same way you would install it in any other (similar) commercial environment.
In some cases you need to post a placquard on the entrance(s) to the booth... "Safety Film ONLY".
Sounds like the inspector doesn't know his own code. 
The whole proof is placquarded right on every projector... "Professional use only... Not for use with nitrate film..."
If the projectors aren't fit for running nitrate then there is NO WAY the booth can be nitrate-safe. Thus, there is no need to apply the more stringent standards.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-21-2002, 10:27 AM:
One must remember that the NEC is the minimum standard and each state, county and city can add its own requirments making it strickter
The same is true in Canada where the CSA code is national but each level below it can add to it
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-21-2002, 10:55 AM:
Over here there are still laws on the statute book governing the use of nitrate in cinemas (1985 Cinematograph Act), and what safety precautions a local council must check before granting a cinema a licence to project nitrate to a paying audience.AFAIK, the only cinema left in the UK which is licensed to show nitrate and still does so on a regular basis is screen 2 at the National Film Theatre in London. Screen 1 used to show nitrate but stopped after Dolby and DTS penthouse readers were installed in the early 1990s and the enclosed spoolboxes had to be removed to make way for them.
The last nitrate print I saw there was 'They Made Me a Fugitive' in late 98 or early 99. It was scratched to hell, but the dense, silvery picture still looked great...
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 01-21-2002, 12:46 PM:
I think ( and I may well be wrong here ) that the Tynseide in Newcastle also has Nitrate Licence.The whole UK cinemas act is well in need of a re-write. I've seen a 6 screen multi opened last year, with buckets of sand and drop down shutters. They'll be insisting on metal lined booths next!
Generally I find that electrical inspectors/ clerk of works etc have absolutely no idea what they are looking at in the booth, so just leave us alone. The only connection to equipment done by electricians is usually the incoming mains. Often they hang the surrounds too, and we get them to connect as they go.
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 01-21-2002, 01:03 PM:
Actually, Paul....he took five seconds to look at the cable, said "fine" and left! He didn't even inspect the connections. That damn cat peed on everything. I had a pet rabbit one year that chewed the insulation off a 110 volt line going to an oil-filled heater. The cat came along and provided us with some spectacular if somewhat stinky fireworks. He disappeared shortly after that....just walked out of the house and never came back.
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-22-2002, 10:21 AM:
Pete - I had a tour of the Tyneside just before Christmas and the DP75s in screen 1 certainly had spoolboxes, but I didn't notice any porthole shutters and there certainly wasn't a direct exit from the projection box to the exterior of the building, so I'd be surprised if it had a nitrate licence.What it does have, though, are carbon arc lamps in both screens! I'd never seen a film projected using carbons before. Looks totally different - a sort of blueish light. I guess colour prints would have to be graded totally differently if carbons were still in widespread use.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-22-2002, 10:27 AM:
Carbons should be whiter not bluish if so they may have the trim at the wrong spot.
In many locations if the booth is common to multiauditoria then the fire shutters are required to eliminate the passage of fire from one aud to another via the booth, just like is required in airducting
In fact in many locations duct closures are used
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 01-22-2002, 11:21 AM:
From what you've seen Leo, I too would be surprised if the Tyneside had a nitrate licence! I suspect I stand corrected.
Yeah it does run carbons in both screens, there is a little piece in the latest Cinema Technology mag about that very fact.Gordon, I've never come across drop down shutters in a new install apart from this one. It was built in a region where no one has opened a new cinema for probably eighty years, so I guess the inspectors are not used to dealing with such things, and go by the book. Duct closers are not unheard of here, but far from common.