Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The Italian Job Lip-Sync

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Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 01-21-2002, 04:37 AM:

I just had an opertunity to watch the fine film The Italian Job.

But i did notice for about the first reel there were some lip sync problems. Anyone seen this before.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-21-2002, 08:42 AM:

Was it just lip-sync or m & e sync as well?

Check the relative position of the two start marks on the head leader. The frame which says 'picture start' should also have the word 'start' in the space where the analogue soundtrack goes alongside it. If it is significantly (as in, 2-3 perfs) out, this can be enough to hear the difference.

I can't recall any sync problems when I saw the rerelease of 'Italian Job' which came out in (I think) 1999. But it could be that the picture and sound dupe negs were mis-threaded in the printer with the result that the print is out of sync. The lab technicians operating these things have to lace them up in almost complete darkness...

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 01-21-2002, 04:33 PM:

I didn't run the print. I just watched this and noticed the sync problem which were for about the first 1 or 2 reels.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-21-2002, 04:46 PM:

If sync seems to drift in and out during a reel, there may be an issue with the editing. Music, sound effects (Foley), and dialog are usually edited separately, hence Leo's comment. Could it just be a bad job of ADR or dubbing?

If an entire reel seems out of sync by the same amount, it could indeed be that the picture negative and sound negative were not theaded (laced) in proper sync on the printer. As Leo notes, there are usually corresponding sync marks on the picture and sound leader that can be checked. All four tracks are on the same sound negative (analog, Dolby Digital, DTS, SDDS), so a printer threading error would affect all four tracks.

Here is a link to the Association of Cinema and Video Laboratories (ACVL) Manual:
http://www.acvl.org/manual.htm

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 01-21-2002, 05:01 PM:

I'll have to watch it if it comes on TV some time to check. It seemed to be a bit more than just bad ADR.

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 01-22-2002, 08:39 AM:

Well spotted Michael. Hope it didn't spoil your enjoyment of the film too much. After talking to the projectionist that ran the show he confirms that through reel 1 there was synch of up to 2 frames. Unfortunately we didn't get chance to rehearse this show so it didn't get picked up until the night of the show.

The print number was USA 513

Leo Print had been returned to Perivale before I picked up this thread so couldn't check start positions

John P. This print is in glorious mono so no digital tracks

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 01-22-2002, 08:45 AM:

A minor thing like lip sync for the 1st reel wouldn't spoil a great film like that.

That "Cliffhanger" ending. I carn't decide if that is the worst ending to a film i have ever seen or the best.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-22-2002, 09:43 AM:

John: Have release prints with multiple soundtrack formats always come from the same dupe neg?

I once showed a print of that masterpiece 'The Land Girls' (not!) in which the SR-D track on one reel was in perfect sync but the SVA track was a long way (as in, several seconds) out. We'd shown it the first week in screen 1, which had digital, but then it moved into an SR only screen and the problem came to light. The moral of the story is, when rehearsing the print, flick through all the soundtrack formats which your cinema uses at least once during each reel.

However, if labs are now preparing one dupe neg with all four formats on it for striking the prints, I guess that's no longer necessary.

BTW Michael, did ADR exist back in the late 60s/early 70s? AFAIK, the performer lip-synching to the mute rushes was about as automatic as it got. On which subject, have a look at the sound version of Hitchcock's 'Blackmail' if you get a chance. It was originally planned as a silent film but rescripted and reshot for sound about half way through production. This caused more than a slight problem, as the lead actress was Czech (i.e. she spoke no English) and had been cast as a Cockney shopkeeper's daughter! Now this is no problem in a silent film, but in a talkie...

In the end they had to get a second actress to speak her lines, lip-synching to her off the set in real time, as the film was being shot! This was becuase a single-system camera was being used, in which the picture and the optical soundtrack are simultaneously exposed in the same camera, with the result that absolutely no post-synching was possible. All the music, effects, and dialogue during the synchronised shots in that film were recorded live.

For a blow-by-blow account of the shooting process, see Charles Barr's book English Hitchcock.

Oh and finally... YOU'RE ONLY SUPPOSED TO BLOW THE BLOODY DOORS OFF!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-22-2002, 10:15 AM:

Leo asked: "John: Have release prints with multiple soundtrack formats always come from the same dupe neg?"

Although it would certainly be possible to print each of the four soundtracks (analog, Dolby Digital, DTS, and SDDS) with a separate sound negative, this would require four passes through the printer --- certainly not practical for large scale release printing. So almost all prints with multiple (up to four or "quad") tracks are printed in one pass, with all the tracks on one sound negative.

Kodak developed a new panchromatic sound negative film for this application, since different colors of light are used to expose the various tracks on the sound negative:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/2374.shtml

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has just announced that a Scientific and Engineering Award (Academy Plaque) is being awarded to Steve Gerlach, Gregory Farrell and Christian Lurin for the design, engineering and implementation of the Kodak Panchromatic Sound Recording Film, 2374.

The new film allows all four soundtrack systems to be exposed on a single negative with relative ease. This stock has allowed single inventory prints, facilitating the more economic distribution of motion pictures:
http://www.oscar.org/press/pressreleases/02.01.07.a.html

Congratulations to my co-workers at Kodak for this achievement!