We're considering installing a DTS unit in addition to our CP65/DA20, for a number of reasons, mainly due to the fact that being a student run cinema, by the time we get prints, some multiplex has usually scratched the hell out of them, resulting in quite a few dropouts to SR - American Pie 2 comes to mind recently where someone had mananged to scratch the SRD track so much that we were reading 8's to F's throughout the entire feature (we usually run 2-4 on a good day).

Anyway, before investing money in this, what is the situation with obtaining DTS discs in the UK? Warner Bros. usually include them as standard in their shipments but as for the other distributors, is it simply a case of requesting them, or is getting hold of discs as problematic as some people have made out, especially with back catalogue titles? Obviously, if we can only get hold of discs for the odd film, spending a not inconsiderate amount on this probably wouldn't be worthwhile!

Thanks,

Rob Jones
York Student Cinema
 

DTS Europe
Unit 5, Tavistock IndustrialEstate,
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E-mail: dtsinfo@dtsonline.co.uk
Phone: (011) 44-1189-349199
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Up here I am sory to say that I can no longer recomend DTS to my customers, because disk supply is almost non existent. One of my customers, 8 screens, 4 DTS, 4 SR.D, is in the process of costing to remove the DTS 6AD's (1 year old), and replace with CP650, as they are simply not getting the use from them. I have two RFT's under my care, both have DTS, one has used it a handful of times in 2 years, the other never gets disks so never uses it. The distributors are useless. One of my services has it in writing from several of them, that they do not have discs for 'xxxx' feature and have no intentions of getting any. DTS UK were no help either, they told him that disc distribution is down to the the film distributors. BTW this is all related to new releases, so I suspect that with rep material you can forget all about it!

This is a real shame as there is nothing wrong with the DTS system, it's robust and reliable, and sounds good too!

On the other hand, some of my customers (large chains) don't seem to have too much trouble getting discs, this suggests that they are reserved for 'the big boys', which I doubt you fall into the category of.

Sorry to sound so negative, but if I were your engineer I'd have a hard time sleeping at night knowing I'd sold you a DTS unit that will be of little use to you. That said we've got a second hand one in right now that needs upgrading, but I'm sure would be yours for not a lot of £££!

if you are getting damaged copies, call the dispatch depot (Glasgow for you?) and the distributor concerned, quote the copy number and kick up hell! You are paying for it after all!

I have to say though I do approve of WB's procedure of actually putting the discs in their own plastic tub in the box - at least that way its more obvious when people forget to put them back on their return. Just a shame the others can't follow suit!

Just out of interest, if we did choose to go down this root, what sort of price would we be looking at for something like a refurb DTS-6D? And is it possible to configure the setup so that you could drop back to SRD rather than SR? From what I have read it looks as though its a case of switching off the DA20 in a "one or the other" type configuration. Pete - I think Alex will be getting one of your people in over the next couple of weeks to do some work - would they be able to advise on this kind of thing?

cheers,

Rob
 

Now about the reversion. Someone keep me right here (Steve Guttag??!) I've never personally installed a CP65 with DA20 AND DTS. I have seen Ultra Stereo with DA20 AND DTS, and that installation has big notices all over it about only having one digital unit on at a time, I think that the DTS player feeds into the DA20, which is in bypass when powered off, hence allowing the DTS signal into the CP65. But surely there is a way of putting the DA20 into bypass with it powered on?? If the DTS went through the DA20, then the DTS revert pulse could be wired to push the DA20 in, which if reverted would push the CP65 into SR anyway, assuming auto digital was disabled on the DA20. Or am I talking out of the orifice a totally different substance is supposed to come out of?

All that said, if there's a working SR.D track there, are you likely to play the DTS? Assuming of course you can get discs.
 

What I will do is send them this thread.

Karen at DTS
 

Yes, I agree with Karen that things are improving.

However...

Karen, why the disks are coming in so different ways?
I've received many different enclosures:

1 - Just the disk case (most of the time)
2 - A larger case reel-shaped that fit into a reel case (one time: Star Wars)
3 - A red box with a CD case inside... Unfortunately the cd case don't fit into the red box... (Warner Bros)

Whis this kind of enclosures is not unusual to forget the disk in the booth.

Also, WHY TO POOL OUT THE CD FROM ITS CASE I HAVE TO TROUBLE SO MUCH???? The mechanism is tooooo strong, I really risked many times to broke the disks...
I believe that the second case is the better one.

Bye
Antonio
 

Not too much of a problem as we are equipped with Dolby SRD and DTS, so we just put the remains in a bag, along with a note, when it's sent back.

Obviously when the disks are packaged properly (in their own reel-can, supported by a plastic fit-in frame) they are in perfect condition.
 

I can tell you how we handle them here. We package trailer discs in paper sleeves and mail them off.

We pack feature discs in slim poly cases and place them in large hard plastic reels. The plastic reels are sent to the film distribuator who places them in the Goldberg cans in-between the film reels.

How things are done in the UK could be different. I'll find out (probably) tomorrow.

Karen at DTS
 

Rob: I used to work at City Screen and it doesn't have DTS in any of the auditoria, sorry. I do gather that there's a possibility of 70mm being installed in screen 1 in the near future, though.

Pete: Deluxe Film Services supply York from Perivale rather than Glasgow (or rather they did 'in my day'), via Securicor, who had a habit of delivering the Odeon's films to us and vice-versa.

I was once told by a man at the Glasgow Rank depot, that those green boxes were deliberately designed to be tricky to lift, because you are not meant to lift them alone. That makes sense, but the way that they allow film to fall out of the cans if it's an odd number of reels is unbelievable! Even taping the cans shut is no help, as the film just 'peaks' in side the can. For a while we used to get empty cans stuck in to take up the space, then we got newspaper, which was better then nothing. Sounds like even old newspaper is too much to ask these days!
 

Another mieow and hiss I have about the awful green boxes is that they were so heavy in themselves that a green box plus six reels probably is to heavy to safely lift single-handed. But the same weight of film in a plain simple cardboard box is no problem, especially as you can lift it to chest height and cradle it in your arms - i.e. you back is not contorted as you walk with the film. The green boxes are so bulky that you just can't do that. I can well believe that this was a deliberate act of political correctness, and if so that's another good reason why the individual responsible should be executed. I'm all in favour of health and safety, and health and safety is 90% about common sense: we know what we can safely carry and what we can't.

Example: It's 10am on Friday morning, you're the only one in the cinema, you have three films on crossover to make up for a 1.00 start and they arrive in containers which are deliberately designed so that they cannot safely be lifted by one person. Thanks mate, whoever you are!

OK, rant over.
 

ETS's reasoning for doing this I assume is because a 7 reel film no longer requires 2 4 reel-slot cases, but only one 4 reel-slot case and a 3 reel-slot case. Make sense? Please push for the thicker cases again.

I don't think City Screen have done this as yet as we at one point in the process of arranging to hitch a lift with them to go and see 2001 in 70mm in Bradford as the print they were screening was one of a handful of newly struck 35mm prints. City Screen is without a doubt the best place in town - just wish the bar wasn't quite so outrageously priced!

Is Gerry still delivering the films? My favourite Securicor cock-up in York was when he delivered 'Mission Impossible 2' to us and 'Romance' to the Odeon by mistake. So I did the usual 'phoning round ritual, with UIP swearing blind that MI2 had been successfully delivered to the Odeon (despite the fact that the green box in question was sitting in our foyer with an Odeon address label on it), the 'Romance' distributor swearing blind that the print had been delivered to us and me just swearing.

Eventually the Odeon called us to say that they'd had 'some foreign shit' delivered to them. The guy said 'Well, it says 'Romance' on the label but the rest of it's all in Wop language.' A voice in the background then corrected him, 'No, it's in f-----g frog language.' The caller continued to me, 'anyway we don't show any of that crap here, but we thought that you might.' The end result was a film swap by taxi. Talk about cultural diversity...

As for the City Screen bar, the prices for members are a lot lower - if you go there regularly it might be worth joining. I think it costs around £15 per year and that also gets you 50p off the ticket price for a film. So you have to do quite a lot of drinking and/or watching for it to be worthwhile, but if you do that anyway then it might. The bar used to be for members and ticket-holders only, but last autumn they finally got a licence to let members of the public in too. However, in order to encourage membership they then stuck up the drink prices for non-members. Although I now work in Middlesbrough I still live in York, and pop in there for a pint occasionally. I agree - lovely bar but you can double the booze to cash ratio in virtually any one of the other 365 hostelries within the outer ring road...

BTW, by the 'Film Theatre', does he mean Museum Gardens? There haven't been any film shows in that place since September 1999!

Talking of Vic 8's we were down in Warwick the other week where they're running two Vic 8's on changeovers, which they picked up for a grand a piece about ten years ago! Looked pretty good appart from the horrible keystoning due to the ridiculous rake in the auditorium, but I'd love to see that at City Screen if he ever gets it going - saw Lord of the Rings down there the other night in the THX screen, and it, well, put us to shame really (I think he may be setting the levels just a tad on the "check out the bass" side of things ;-) - now 70mm in there would be something else...

Rob

PS - who sets the film quiz questions down there? I swear that thing HAS to be rigged!
 

That Warners is the nightmare fleapit from hell. Saw 'The Tailor of Panama' there last Spring in the company of a load of rugby-shirted, beered-up yobs who spent the whole film throwing popcorn at the screen and yelling abuse while the cinema staff did nothing. Then about a month later I went back to see Jurassic Shite 3 under extreme duress (a friend came to stay who insisted on the expedition). The print was badly scratched by only its second day on release and then we came out to find that my car had been nicked. This being late on a rainy Saturday evening, ergo no taxis to be had for love nor money, it was a long walk back to Bootham but it served my friend right! I don't care if that place shows my favourite film of all time (which, given that the film in question is silent and a documentary, I don't think is very likely), I ain't going back there again...

Shame we only have dolby A Analog equipment.
 

OTHERVISE G R E A T ! !

Per
 

However, if you are a mainly art house venue then I'd seriously think hard about spending the cash. Art house product seldom has DTS, or SRD for that matter, so you may be able to use the cash on something that's going to get more use.

But I'd highly recommend DTS. Its much more stable than SRD, hardly ever reverts compared to SRD, sounds great and is simple to use.

As for the reversion tree, DTS > SRD > SR... not too sure about how it works on CP65. The basic install is easy so check out the manual in the manuals section. I've a thread running on installing a DTS6D onto a CP55 & DA20 with the intention of doing exactly that. Its not straight forward but I'm getting there, slowly. My solution at the moment is to use an existing relay card from DTS to switch the outputs of the DA20 & the DTS 6D into the processor. It also requires some interfacing of the sense control lines so its not a job for the inexperienced.

As usual everyone on here is a wealth of information as is Karen from DTS.

So if you don't need the cash elsewhere go for it!

As for popping down to City Screen... they don't have DTS anymore.

Ken, I can't say I've had the problems with SRD that you have posted. Are you speaking about new prints, or used prints? I've ran prints for months without any SRD dropout. I commonly don't even turn on the analog backup. SRD is just as reliable as DTS is provided you didn't get a butchered print. No need to burn the led.

=====================================================================
Ken, I can't say I've had the problems with SRD that you have posted. Are you speaking about new prints, or used prints? I've ran prints for months without any SRD dropout. I commonly don't even turn on the analog backup. SRD is just as reliable as DTS is provided you didn't get a butchered print. No need to burn the led.
=====================================================================

The experience I've had with arthouse here is that they seldom have any digital on... but we are talking real arthouse not main stream crossover arthouse!

We have basement readers on our Vic 8's and the general opinion on here is that basement readers are crap!! Maybe a bit harsh but they are certainly less tollerent than penthouse readers. We often see reversion at changerovers etc... It's not a major problem and it's not something I'm paranoid about but it is regular enough to notice.

We don't sit looking at the DA20 all day... at least I don't!

DTS has a four second tollerence before it reverts so in reality it never reverts, unless there is a problem with the print of course.
So I would say it's more robust by design. The Timecode is in an area that has no mechanical friction associated with it so it remains stable. As SRD is placed between the perforations it has to cope with the friction of the gate, sproket pads, platter guides etc etc... so is bound to suffer more wear and damage. Our readers are properly setup with average error rates of 2 - 4, so there's no problem there.

I'm not knocking SRD at all. It sounds great and has the advantage of 'being' there on the print so no chasing disc's. I just happen to like DTS... it's a selling point for some people, in the same way that THX and Dolby Digital are. It's good to be able to display all three logos in the foyer so the public are aware they will see and hear a film in arguably the best way possible.

Mind you I'd be very happy to have SRD in all four screens at Stratford.... so if Tony's looking in ... I'll call in and collect two DA20's during the week and a couple of penthouse or basement readers as well
 

Alignment of the SRD reader can also be an issue. I've never worked with a Cinemecannica basement, but don't you screen your prints? If the SRD doesn't drop out during your pre-screening but it does later, you are doing something wrong and causing damage to your prints. The lame excuse I hear a lot in the US at multiplexes is that "the digital track wears off". Not so. Scratches and dirt can cause it to drop out down the road, but that's operator error/theater film damage at work, not a failure of the SRD system. The same goes for SDDS.

Gate cleaning, a pet hate of mine, and gate tension.

When I do take the gate out in the morning its always got a tick hard build up on it.... It's not there at the end of my day... so what can you do. Gate tension is another hate, they keep turning it up. I can't argue if they say the picture was jumping.

I'm there very often 6 or 7 days a week I'm not working myself into an early grave just to prove a point.

As for splicing tape, we use Jack Roe.... is it cheapo? I don't know.

Splicers are expensive and we use the bog standard italian, I think, make. Not sure what it is off the top of my head. But again it all comes down to care and maintenance. I'm only one guy...

Prints generally come to us new, so they do deteriorate.... but its not a major problem as I say its just noticable over the first week then settles down. Generally the error rates stay around 4 or 5 maximum, which is about normal from what I gather.

the gate deposits are a management thing that I am trying to deal with. As I say I'm only one guy and short of being there 24/7 I have to rely on my staff. The error levels I've seen in most cinemas hover around the 4 or 5 mark.

Its difficult to know what to set SRD up on. I've tried setting up on my Jiffy SRD test film but found that when I went back to a real world print the error levels were higher. So I picked a new print and setup on that. Thing is as different reels went thru azimuth etc changed. We do get prints that run very low, 2 or 3. It's much better than it was when the readers were first installed, not by me I should add. When I had to change the LED assy I spent a long time on the setup and made a big difference and dropped the current etc. So I'm happy its at its best. I should add however that according to DRAS the image is over 100% and there is nothing that can be done to reduce it. This may be why the rates are in your opinion too high.
However the advice I've been given suggest this is acceptable.

You may have gotten the impression that its worse than it really is, we do get reversions but its not at a level that I'm concerned about, I just compared it with DTS which hardly ever reverts in comparison.

I'll leave the laptop on a feature this week and see what happens over a newish print.

I'm quite a realist in many ways and whilst I'm capable of consistently good standards of work, not everyone else can or wants to. So I either aim for a realistic standard that I can guarantee or bang my head against a brick wall......

I've got some Film-Guard and have tried it a couple of times on a new noisy print. As we have to apply it by hand I'm not going to allow others to apply it or it'll end up all over the place.

Now, if people would send the discs back with the print, everyone would be happy.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 

The Chairman and members of the DTS disc collector's association.
Who's got the biggest collection ???

p.
 

I'm not knocking the dts format, but let's look at this with a realistic point of view. There is simply no reason to install dts in an art house.

I've nothing against dts in first run or sub run theaters. In fact dts is probably a smarter choice for a sub run theater, but it is a useless format in an art house.