Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Volume Levels, is level 7 too high?

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Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 01-29-2002, 12:58 AM:

Alot of times, with certian movie directors or producers, like Tim Burton, Jerry Bruckhiemer, and John Woo, they'll send letters with the prints requesting that we set the volume levels to thier movies to 7.
At my theatre which uses Dolby Digital and DTS, level 7 is extremly loud. I remember with Final Fantasy and Harry Potter the sound was unbarable at 7 and had to be lowered to about 5. We always get complaints from the customers even if its at barley level 6.
I was just wondering if you all have had problems with following the sound level request in these letters?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-29-2002, 01:10 AM:

7 is often refered to as "reference level" or 85db of pink noise when the levels are set properly. This is the same level that sound mixers are supposed to mix their movies at. Are the sound processor levels in your auditorium are set properly? Even if they are, the EQ plays an important role as well. Some techs like to crank up the treble for some odd reason. Maybe it is because they can't hear well anymore or perhaps they like the artificial "crispness" it adds to the audio (kind of like "sharpening" a graphic image). If the treble and the higher frequencies are set too high then the audio can be unbearable even at lower volumes. But it's not JUST the treble. The entire EQ should be very smooth otherwise it will just sound harsh.

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 01-29-2002, 01:18 AM:

Unfortunately, many theatres are guilty of playing films TOO LOUD.

Often it appears a level is checked on dialogue which is set to boom unrealistically around the cinema. Consequently action and effects become obscenely loud.

The long term efect of this can be quite damaging with customers seeking more sensible levels elsewhere.

Cheers,

Frank.

Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 01-29-2002, 01:24 AM:

Well noone has ever adjusted the sound proccesor levels before, at least not as long as I've been there.(3 years) And noone has ever taught me how. The sound is fine at 5½ and 6, but 7 is way too much.

Where would I learn to adjust levels and the EQ? I know noone at my theater knows.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 01-29-2002, 01:52 AM:

Dialog is supposed to be at 85dB with the master fader set at '7'. Effects are allowed to go above the dialog level. Funny, the THX guys just finished doing the new Palms (Brenden) multiplex here and they set all of the houses at '5' for the reference level. What's up with that?

Paul

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2002, 01:58 AM:

That's crazy. I know lots will argue with this, but if the sound is "too loud" at "7" and 85db per stage channel, then either the EQ was poorly done or the acoustics are bad...usually a poor EQ job though.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 01-29-2002, 05:14 AM:

Fader level 7 was chosen by Dolby for their reference level because it provides the optimum balance between noise and available headroom in their processors. (At level 7 there is also 10dB in hand for soft soundtracks). Setting a Dolby processor's reference level with a fader setting of 5 will result in an increase in post-fader system noise of about 10dB. I find it hard to believe that THX have done this.

Many directors like their movies loud and many sound mixers (who get used to continuous loud listening) also like it loud, usually much louder than the average movie goer. Baz Luhrmann told the projectionists at the international premier of his film Romeo & Juliet that he wanted that fader left at 7 because he wanted "the audience's ears to bleed for the first 10 minutes" of the film. As some of you may recall the first 10 minutes (which is set in, from memory, a gas station) is full of lots of excessive high frequency stuff like chains, stirrups etc, so the audience's ears did indeed "bleed".

I once attended an SMPTE gathering at the Crystal Palace mixing theatre in Sydney where they played a reel of Mad Max 3 (which was mixed there). It was played at 85dB reference and many sections were excruciatingly loud. In a room full of audio professionals the mixing engineers had a hard time explaining how they expected cinema goers to tolerate that sort of SPL.

I don't know of too many cinemas that run their faders above about 6 in this country, good eq or otherwise.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-29-2002, 07:09 AM:

Sound levels have been a frequent topic of discussion:
http://www.dolby.com/tech/toolouds.pdf
http://www.dolby.com/press/wb.pr.0101.AMPAS.html
http://www.dolby.com/press/meter.html
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/general/how_loud_is_loud.pdf
http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/HPSACHAINS.pdf

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 01-29-2002, 07:36 AM:

Many movies are just mixed WAY too loud, or more precisely with too much dynamic range. I have heard an incredible number of complaints over the years that movies played at reference levels in properly set-up houses are just unbearable to the customers. Not to mention the possible problems of bleedthrough to the other houses.

I have recommended 2 different approaches over the years. 1: Set reference levels to around 79 dB spl instead of 85. Then with the fader at "reference", the levels are OK. 2: Just turn it down a bit. There is no magic about having the fader set at 7 or CAL or whatever. Use some common sense and above all, get out in the auditorium and actually listen to the sound.

While I certainly agree with Ray about an optimum setting on the processor for best signal to noise ratio, if the movie is very loud anyway, then noise is probably the least of the problems.

Joe mentioned the eq and the overall smoothness of the sound system. In mix rooms, I am reasonably certain that everything has been tuned to a gnat's eyelash, and the sound is extremely smooth. It is certainly much easier to listen without pain to loud SPL's in such a good environment. Unfortunately many theatres are probably not so well tuned, and even small peaks in critical frequency ranges where our ears are most sensitive can quickly become difficult to listen to.

Lastly, things like car crashes, metal smashing against metal, explosions, etc. don't sound so nice in real life either. So if the movie contains lots of this type of material, then it is probably best to lower the volume a bit.

Many theaters have used sound level limiting/compression devices precisely because of the problems associated with the loud feature soundtracks, and not just with the problem of loud trailers. We have one customer who puts them in every house with digital sound because the customers complain about sound levels. The problem would not be so bad if you could turn the volume down a bit and still be able to hear the low level material, especially dialog, but apparently the mixers must think that an 80 dB dynamic range is just fine and dandy. It may work in the mixing rooms, but it does not fly at all in most typical cinemas.

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-29-2002, 10:31 AM:

Speaking strictly from the perspective of a frequent moviegoer who is also very opinionated and who highly appreciates "sound done right".

Having the theater staff get the sound level "just right" for each movie can help make or break the experience for me sometimes. The question is, what is "just right". It can vary from movie to movie (obviously). A couple of the most memorable movies for me sound-wise were "Bridges of Madison County" and "In The Bedroom" (I'm soft in the head). These are both very *quiet* films. Lots of dialog, no efx to speak of. With a movie like these, to me the priority is simple: get the level set so normally-spoken dialog is easily intelligible. Get that right and everything else will probably fall into place. To have the volume cranked way up would have been distracting. Too low and the dialog is hard to understand, which is probably the worst sound-related fault a theater can inflict on the audience. These movies had passages that were very quiet and atmospheric, and sound level needed to be "natural" to enhance the experience.

Now on the other hand, I like most movies to be loud. What is the magic fader level or SPL? I have no idea. Maybe it can be different for every movie. I want explosions to rock the seats if possible. I want dialog to be LOUD, but short of ear-splitting. I want the music to fully envelop the theater. I want directional material to be very, uh, directional. A big, powerful cinema sound system is an awesome thing and I hate it when they don't get used to their full advantage. I don't want bleeding ears, but I do want LOUD and FULL.

When I saw Lord of the Rings on opening day at the local Regal, they had the sound level down a little lower than normal. I noticed it right away, and it bugged me for 3 hours. I don't know why they did that -- they normally run the volume very high there and their system can handle it extremely well. It was adequate, but not the full experience it should have been. Maybe they dropped it a notch because somebody complained, I don't know. But I found it detracted from the experience. If it was on 6, it needed to be on 6.5.

The only humble suggestion I can offer is to try and spend some time in the auditorium if you can and make adjustments by your gut instinct, not necessarily by what the dial says is the "calibrated" level.

------------------
- dave
Stay away from the meadow...

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 01-29-2002, 02:35 PM:

Has anyone experimented with any of the latest automatic volume controls in a cinema environment? While a compressor/limiter can sqash the dynamic range in order for it to be tolerable to audiences, it it a passive device with set thresholds and compression ratios. There are automatic mixers on the market that actively sample room audio and adjust themselves according to changes in program content and room acoustics. Has anyone tried this in their theatre?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2002, 02:59 PM:

UGH! Shame on you for even thinking that. The average cinema destroys what the sound mixer of the film intended it to sound like enough as it is.

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 01-29-2002, 03:07 PM:

Brad,

Worries about excessive volume in the cinema are not "crazy" but a potentially damaging business (and health) risk which many experts, Dolby included, acknowledge.

It's no good banging on about EQ settings and recommended DB's because many theatres and combinations of sound systems vary.

As a number of people have suggested, it doesn't take rocket science to check the sound in the auditorea. Or, indeed, to solicit the opinion of audiences as they exit.

Too often the level is determined by the ego of the projectionist whose hearing has probably been permanently damaged, anyway, by years of excessive volume.

Incidently, as can be seen from the 'Roadshow Presentation' thread, I am someone who appreciates full bodied sound when appropiate.

Cheers,

Frank.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2002, 03:12 PM:

Frank, you are misunderstanding me. I never said the volume should be played at 7 no matter what. I would say less than 1 in 100 theaters are actually calibrated well enough and have good enough acoustics to play films at 7. But for those that ARE, playing at 7 is a perfect volume. I can back that up by saying I have worked in a couple of theaters that had such perfectly tuned systems and I am not aware of ever receiving ONE single complaint. Yes, the EQ really DOES make that much of a difference. (Most people tend to over-EQ in my opinion.) You have to hear a well tuned auditorium first to see what I mean though. Unfortunately, no matter how smooth that EQ is, some auditoriums will never play comfortably at 7 due to acoustics, design or less-than-ideal choice of speakers.

I must disagree with your comment "Too often the level is determined by the ego of the projectionist whose hearing has probably been permanently damaged, anyway, by years of excessive volume." It has been my experience that people at 60+ years old simply should not be doing any serious sound work. It is a medically proven fact that no matter how well a person takes care of his hearing that by the time someone hits that age, the hearing is so far gone that the person is literally unable to hear problems. Case in point, a tech thinks the sound is "perfect" in a certain auditorium, when all of the customers are yelling at the management because the dialogue is unintelligible. When the center HF diaphragm is removed, there is a hole in it the size of a silver dollar! See my point? Just because someone is young does not mean that person's hearing is impaired. However as people near retirement, you can fight science all you want, but the hearing dwindles. (Sorry if that sounds mean-spirited, but it is medically true.)

I also disagree with the comment above that the dialogue should be "loud". I feel the fader should be set to make the dialogue "comfortable". That being the dialogue should not appear to be loud, but you should not find yourself leaning toward the screen to hear it better either. If the system is properly designed and tuned, that fader WILL end up at 7 to achieve that level of dialogue. Everything else will fall perfectly into place. (And no I do not mean to simply calibrate the setting of 7 to 79db. Personally I feel that's cheating to compensate for some other problem. However I do agree the noise level will be lowered at 7 over 5 which is always a welcome improvement.)

One last thing before I finish, lousy mixes such as is almost always found on a Bruckheimer film do not apply here. I end up usually running those a full point below my normal because they are so compressed and harsh sounding in an attempt to give the perception of "loud" that it can simply "hurt" to listen to at any substantial volume. It is poor mixing like this where most of the customer complaints will be found.

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 01-29-2002, 03:19 PM:

Well. We got 30 of 'em here at Star City, Birmingham, UK.

Seriously though Brad, nice to hear from you and keep up the good work which provides a valuable resource for projectionists world wide.

But don't play your movies TOO LOUD.

Kind regards,

Frank.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-29-2002, 03:26 PM:

If the system is properly tuned and set the fader will live at a level of 5 to 5.5 for most films
If it higher than that then the reference pinknoise will not be 85dbc

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-29-2002, 05:18 PM:

Automatic level control is a terrible idea. As Brad said all it does is further compromise the original mix. Why do all FM radio stations sound so crappy? Because they use automatic level control and reduce the dynamic range so everything sounds "good" [read: equally loud] inside a noisy car. That's the last thing movies need.

------------------
- dave
Stay away from the meadow...

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2002, 05:26 PM:

You might want to reword your last post Gordon. It is not very clear of what you are trying to say.

Are you saying that a typical theater after standard tuning plays at 5-5.5? If so, I do agree with you for "most" typical theaters. However I still hold my ground that theaters that have been well designed and have been EQ'd with care play do at 6.5-7. I do know of some theaters that are so piss poorly tuned that the average movie plays at 3 (and yes Mark this auditorium I speak of was aligned with an R2!) In all cases I've listed here, a stage speaker reads 85db. My argument here is upon doing it right, not just turning some dials to arrive at "the reference curve" and walking away claiming that is the best it will ever get.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-29-2002, 05:45 PM:

"disagree with the comment above that the dialogue should be "loud".

I should have said dialog needs to be "comfortably loud", not LOUD. I think we agree on this.

It would be interesting to me to find out how well local theaters "measure" vs. how they sound to my ears.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-29-2002, 05:54 PM:

Yes, I agree the key word here is "comfortable". Measurements are fine and dandy, but no matter who the tech is, who mixed the sound, what the equipment set up is, the final judgment call falls on the projectionist as to just exactly where to set each auditorium for each particular film. *Usually* though once an auditorium's "typical" level is found, most movies do not wander more than 1/2 of a point off of that (about 2db on SDDS scale).

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 01-29-2002, 08:25 PM:

Movies too loud?

That is a common complaint and as far as DTS is concerned, we match the master mix. The overall level of the film is determined by the film maker, it is not up to us. We duplicate what is given to us. We make no changes to the mix.

I agree, though, in many instances, setting the fader for '7' is usually too much for most audiences.

I, personally, have not found a theater out of tune to greatly effect the loudness of a movie. It can effect the sound quality - harshness or muddy-ness.

Where you sit can effect the perception of loudness. I never sit in front. I prefer to sit in the "sweet spot" (rear third of theater and just off center) and set the CP master fader around '6'. I don't mind it a bit loud but I don't like my ears to hurt. I have done many industry screenings and there have been times when my ears have hurt - but that is what the client wanted. So, I'd stay in the booth with the projectionist, or sit in the back and shove cotten in my ears.

Karen at DTS

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-29-2002, 08:57 PM:

The problem is that people often interpret "harshness" and other EQ no-no's as "loudness". Thus the importance of a great EQ should never be underestimated.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 01-29-2002, 09:45 PM:

>>The problem is that people often interpret "harshness" and other EQ no-no's as "loudness". Thus the importance of a great EQ should never be underestimated.<<

Another thing that I get all the time in the digital houses is complaints about TOO MUCH BASS (read: subwoofer)... I have had houses with perfectly tweaked subs (done with an RTA) that when you play a real film thru them are WAY too boomy, and I end up dropping the sub levels drastically to something more 'believeable'

Also the complainers that come in and bitch about something being way too loud, (it wasn't) and nobody else complains... the guy comes out again and you notice he is wearing two hearing aids, likely turned all the way up... Makes you want to punch the guy...

-Aaron

Posted by Rory Burke (Member # 512) on 01-29-2002, 10:08 PM:

Boomy sounding auditoriums can also be caused by poor room acoustics....hence RT-60 should be with in SMPTE specifications!!

Rory

Posted by Rory Burke (Member # 512) on 01-29-2002, 10:15 PM:

I dont think any of the THX guys b-chained those thaters with the fader at 5. I'd almost be willing to bet against it!! What probably happened is that once those guys finished their certification which is done to industry specs <7.0 being reference level> someone like usual <theater manager> gave the order to turn the volume down. Did you actually witness the Fader at 5.0 while pink noise was being played in the auditorium? IF you did you probably are now playing movies at around 3.5 on the fader. I sincerely doubt this very much!

Rory

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 01-30-2002, 12:44 AM:

Hi Rory!

No, I didn't get to see the THX guys while they were doing their thing--only heard about it after they were done. All of the CP-650's in the place are indeed set at '5' and the couple of auditoriums I've listened to since then sound fine to me level wise. So it may have happened as you describe it.

Paul
SMPTE Hollywood Section
Unemployed mercenary film/video projectionist/engineer
"Otaku wa tsurai yo" <-- Yeah I know, bad pun. Sue me.
It's tough being a fan!

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 01-31-2002, 04:11 PM:

Just a short followup regarding what I saw at the Palms. Just got off the email with Stuart at THX and he confirms that they set reference levels with the fader at '7'. So it would appear that the theater staff decided to set all of the faders to '5' after THX had done their thing.

Regards,

Paul
SMPTE Hollywood Section
Unemployed mercenary film/video projectionist/engineer
"Otaku wa tsurai yo" <-- Yeah I know, bad pun. Sue me.
It's tough being a fan!

Posted by Rory Burke (Member # 512) on 01-31-2002, 10:33 PM:

Hey there Paul!

Good work on double checking!!! Sadly, the first thing that occurs at a theater after a THX certification is just what you witnessed. he volume gets turned down. If you were to walk into the theater mid movie...say during the dialog with the fader setting at 7.0 ...I'm am sure youll find that it sounds just right! What seems to happen are those loud trailers <although comming down in volume gradually> and those sound logo snipes <like Dolby and THX> seem to take the punch out of the rest of the movie. As soon as the cusomer feels the power of those subs during the "blue note" they instantly get up and complain the movie is too loud. This in turn it takes away from the feature but what can anyone do? What can the management do? Sadly, the customer must be apeased! I don't know how many times I have personally witnessed this myself < 100+ is my best guess > It's a shame folks wont give the movies the leniency it requires. They want to see that big picture on the screen but when it comes to the sound they say "ooooohhhhhhh turn that down!" It deeply sadens me. For once I'd like someone to complain that the screen is too big. hahahaha!!!!

Brad and anyone interested: Just as a hypothetical scenario...... since most theaters are "SPLed" at 85db with fader setting at 7.0 and for the most part the consensus seems to be to reset the fader at approx 5.0 or 5.5; would it be a wise descision to reconsider to SPL the rooms at the level that 5.0/5.5 on the fader is equal to?
Seems to me that in order to avoid anymore "loudness" problems as a whole industry wide perhaps SMPTE could look into restructuring the SPL criteria since practically any theater at any facility at any chain in any state in any country experiences this "loudness" dilema.
Most folks in any other industry would conduct tests and compare data with control models etc etc etc.......and yet this "loudness" issue still is prevalent today with very few folks providing an actual solution. I know there are controls out there that are keeping Trailers from getting too loud but that solution brings those very trailers to the level in loudness to movies which are still loud according to the consensus which happen to be the customers. In most other situations or industries something a little more effective would have already been done at least in a more concrete manner. However. years go back and it seems that the same problem which I would almost characterise as an epidemic still exists virtually ignored.

Don't mis understand me. I love movies with the fader at 7.0 but I also know my mother, father, friends, and other folk think they are just toooo loud. Is 7.0 @ 85dbc an untouchable of a number? Would Director's and sound studios not stand for it one bit. Is 7.0 a number that just wont budge no matter what the situation may be? Why is it most folks complain about the loudness of movies yet probably crank up the volume of their streos way past a decent audible level. Afterall alot of music recording studios also record music at 85 dbc. At least the major studios do! Why is there unrelentless stubborness to lowering the volume as an industry being so obvious that it is such a problem?

Rory

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-31-2002, 11:10 PM:

The solution is for theaters to make a couple of modifications to their equipment, or utilize "remote fader control" on many existing automations (like the CA21). There is a wiring solution in the "tips" section on how to do this, but I never have remembered to go back and write out explanations for other processors. I will try and do that sometime before the summer hits.

The secret is simple. No one minds missing the trailers. If the trailers are too loud, you WILL be hearing about it in the lobby. Also as John F. Allen has pointed out, the best way to get people's attention is to run the volume of the trailers just a little bit "too low". If you think that sounds stupid, try it and behold how everyone quietens down as the previews start.

Now with this trailer level in action, you can absolutely BLAST people's heads off with the THX logo (assuming the system can take it and was well calibrated so it doesn't "hurt" to listen to), and not one single person will complain. From there a fader setting of 7 will not bring about a single complaint either. (Again assuming the system is set up properly.)

Regarding digital EQing, it sucks plain and simple. I have yet to see an auditorium that utilized digital EQing properly calibrated that when played at reference level that I was pleased with the sound on. There is something "harsh" and "metallic" sounding about it that I can't quite put my finger on, but it most certainly does affect the sound. Nothing could beat Dolby's cat64B cards and now that they have dropped the CP-65 the only option is on the used market. Rory, you are welcome to challenge me any day to an EQ competition in the same auditorium. You use the internal SDDS controls, I will use a CP200 with the SDDS signal looped through. It will be an easy win in my favor.

F.Y.I. At the GCC Northpark, the "average" fader setting for a feature was 8.0 The THX snipes normally ran at about 9.5 Trailers ran around 4-5 (each trailer had it's own volume setting). This was with the standard level settings of 85db per stage channel at "7" on the fader. Did we get complaints? Hell no. In fact, I am only aware of one complaint in the several years I ran booth there. What we did get was a ton of compliments every week. I still stand firmly in saying that it's all in the acoustics, equipment design and most importantly the EQ. Just ask anyone who ever saw a film in the #1 THX auditorium. They'll tell you.

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 02-01-2002, 07:00 PM:

Sorry for the crude terminology but I just thought I'd fall-in with the vernacular of some posts on the board.

Many customers, who pay our wages, would be bored shitless by some of the technical verbal diarrhoea spouted in the name of excessive volume levels. They just want to enjoy their vist to the cinema.

It's very simple. If the theatre is incorrectly calibrated it is a matter for the quality control of the exhibitor, independent or otherwise, concerned.

Admittedly, the largest demographic range of moviegoers, at present, is of customers who will tolerate their eardrums being turned into jelly for the sake of street cred'.

But I wonder how much business has been lost by the non-return to the cinema generally, of people who enjoyment has been spoiled by the over exuberance of the duty projectionist.

Cheers,

Frank.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-01-2002, 07:13 PM:

Well, yeah! That argument can be made for every aspect of the cinema, not just sound. If your theater sucks, then it sucks! The good theaters will let people enjoy their movies and will be calibrated properly and will not cause listening fatigue when played at "reference level".

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-01-2002, 10:23 PM:

Rory in most cases with the fader at 5 -5.5 the refeernece pink noise will be in the 78-79dbc slow range which is what SMART has called for in there manuals.
If some one is absolutly pissy about haveing ther fader at 7 but have reduced levels calibrate the system spl at 8-8.5 instead

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-02-2002, 12:32 AM:

Gord, if that was the intent, then why bother calibrating 85db @ 7 in the first place? As far as I'm concerned, what you just posted is "cheating", as if to intentionally deceive users of the system to cover up a different problem. The actual sound level, regardless of fader setting, is still low (equivalent to playing at 5.5) and if it must be played that low to prevent ear fatigue, then the system needs more work.

It's funny, all these people hollar about such things as an exact frequency response curve, making sure the surrounds are at exactly the proper level in relation to the stage channels, ensuring the subwoofer is to spec and so forth and so on all to preserve "what the director and sound mixer intended"...yet the opinion here seems that once everything is just *perfect*, it's to hell with the "director and sound mixer's intent" and the entire system at a whole...just play it at 5. Does anyone else see a problem here? This entire silly argument seems to me like a tech waltzed in, calibrated "to the line" and left...never bothering to LISTEN to his work and to trust what he HEARS. Test instruments (yes Mark, even the R2) are wonderful, but they only get you so far. IMHO a sound tech who cannot go in and listen to a lot of familiar reels of film and be able to determine and correct what the RTA does not show isn't worth a flip.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-02-2002, 10:03 AM:

Brad said: IMHO a sound tech who cannot go in and listen to a lot of familiar reels of film and be able to determine and correct what the RTA does not show isn't worth a flip."

Recall my analogy of a piano tuner. A great piano tuner may have electronic instruments to aid in the tuning process, but in the end, they use their "golden ears" for the final tweek, and always check their work by playing some music.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-02-2002, 11:32 AM:

Well Brad the actual fader point is imaterial and in fact If tuned properly Dolby Jiffy will play quiet happily at 7 the problem is every other print will bring complaints from the blue haired polyester crowd.
So the fader gets turned down
Personally I have no problem with the fader at 7
If in a comercial theatre the average fader setting is 7 they either have a very unusal demographics of audience (probably all sound mixers) or something else is not right.
Using different reels of film and tweaking is impossing personal taste as I doubt those reels were ever heard in a review room to know what they sounded like there anyway

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-02-2002, 12:44 PM:

This is all non professional stuff but I thought I'd add in anyway.
In my screening room I've never been able to run at 7. I've EQed a zillion times, thinking that I've done something wrong. I've set it to all the suggested levels and spent hours making sure it was just like the charts suggest. I've bought new amps and new crossover units. Still the same. Comfortable listening is at 5.5. Determined to get this right, and thinking that it was the fault of my homemade speakers I bought JBL speakers and completely respeakered. Now I can't get over 5. So I guess that the only things left are the room acoustics and/or I have just plain missed something crucial in my EQing efforts. Until I can lure some expert in and have them listen, I guess I'll just run at 5. Everything sounds great to me and my audience loves it, but I just can't get to the magic number 7 and it's just bugging me no end.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-02-2002, 01:51 PM:

Greg, I've found in smaller rooms most everything becomes more critical because the speakers are blasting right in your face. Try setting the EQ cards flat and adjusting the HF horn's aiming to obtain the best frequency response on the RTA, then adjust your active crossovers for a better frequency respone and finally break out the RTA for the actual EQing. Also, hard walls can add to the perceived loudness, requiring you to turn it down, so you may want to check out curtains and wall carpet. In the end though, trust your ears with the final settings. It won't be very far off from what the RTA said to set the controls at, but you can eliminate peaks and dips by ear moreso than will show up on a meter.

Gordon, try this one for me. Go into one of the best sounding theaters around in your area and set up the automation to run the previews lower and the feature louder. I'll bet'cha anything there will be no complaints. Now depending on the system, they may not be running the feature at 7, but I'll bet 6-6.5 is easily obtainable and even the blue hair crowd won't complain. It's those damned trailer mixers!!!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-02-2002, 03:34 PM:

Actually several of the best sounding theatres don't play any trailors or adverts.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-03-2002, 01:06 AM:

I run my screening room at 7.0 and rarely deviate from it. Even I find this somewhat surprising since my prior experience tracks with what most people say about 7 being generally too loud on a calibrated system. I've got a CP500D (and DTS); the system is calibrated at 7 yet only rarely does a client or film viewer ask for a change. Even rarer are the times when I may tone it down a notch for a scene or two based on the monitor (there is one very small distributor's logo I always play low--dunno what they were thinking--maybe it's really A-type). But in general I can go weeks and never touch the fader.

Then again, I don't run trailers (except for sometimes for fun).

Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 02-03-2002, 07:35 PM:

Hey guys,
Here's what one older film mixer (award winner by the way)told me Whenever new soundtracks premiered( 4-6 track mag digital), the intent was always to UPGRADE the quality of the sound, not to make it louder, opinions are different I was told between traditional film mixers that started with "academy' curve sound then thru 4 & 6 Track mag sound (Playback) and the new generation of mixers weened on loud rock music and live shows.Sure , nothing wrong in giving the aspect that you are there (i.e. war pictures etc.)We must remember that we cater to a wide demographic of PAYING customers, to some segments, some pictures are way too loud at fader 7, but for other movies catering to 12-25 Years, it's not loud enough?? Idividual discretion must be taken to judge what our customers will appreciate with any given production, I believe it's the duty of a good projectionist and the theatre's management to do so. If some mixers are partialy hearing impared, that's their problem, is it our intention to deafen paying customers?

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-03-2002, 08:02 PM:

Tom, I think you are completely missing the point here. Nowhere has anyone on this thread say that we should deafen our customers. The point to be made here (that few seem to get) is that very few sound systems are set up properly. Look up a couple of posts. Steve also reports not having to modify the fader hardly at all from 7. That sounds to me like a properly set up system, or perhaps a tech who "cheated" like Gordon mentioned earlier in this thread.

My 7 is NOT equal to your 7, which is NOT equal to your competition's 7, which is NOT equal to anyone else's 7. Sure according to the meter it may read that they are the same, but they simply are not due to all of the varying factors already mentioned (speaker placement, equipment choice, acoustics, EQ, etc). Make sense yet?

Your post makes it sound like everyone who runs a well calibrated system at 7 is deafening their customers. That is not true and I resent the assumption. Any good projectionist (who has final say so on the fader setting anyway) will OF COURSE adjust the fader as needed for the particular film.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-03-2002, 08:16 PM:

Lets take a look at the actual track on say a film like CONAIR
There is only a few portions of this title that the % modulation is below 80% that translates to in a digital system to sustained level of over 100 db
That is if the system is calibrated to 85bdc which by the way is the 50% modulation point of a A type track or 87 db on a SR optical track
Bottom line in a real theatre ( where one is sitting in the far field of the speakers) a theatre fader on most hollywood films will sit at 5.5
Quo Vadis I recently screened at 7 with the director present and was commented that in the large theatre it matched what he heard when it was being mixed.
Also very little of that title went over the 75% modualted point yet in the same day i ran a title that sat at the 95% point for most of the screening

Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 02-03-2002, 08:39 PM:

Never intended to say that anyone wants to deafen our customers, the fact is: Some theatres receive instructions from head offices : Fader setting is `"7" run everything that way: period "Don't touch that dial". According to this logic, someone at the top assumes that this is what the level is supposed to be that's how theatres should run it (if it's properly adjusted) It probably was at the opening 4 years back, but a few changed Amps & speakers later or what have you, Theatres that have not had a proper "tune up" since the begining .I know some managers that have asked techs to lower each channel from 85db to 82db to make films less loud,without transgresing head office's orders!!!Our cinema serves has a test point for local Quebec film makers, checking their "0" print, that is the first print from lab available for theatrical screening. Our Equipement is checked every 6 months(equalization, speaker sweeps etc.) or anytime equipement is changed or replaced(Speakers,Amps etc.), Monthly for Dolby tone and light optics.We run most pictures between 6 6 1/2 or 7 to agreable results.That many theatres are improperly adjusted, I Agree, I also Agree that my 7 your 7 everyone elses 7 could be different, too many variables like you mentioned. You mention that projectionist has the final say, I agree fully, I trust a good projectionist, higher management, in some instances I don't!!

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-03-2002, 08:47 PM:

Gordon, your analogy is insane. The film you listed was a BRUCKHEIMER film! Bruckheimer mixes are shit, pure and simple, getting worse and worse with every production, thus they do not apply. I don't ever recall running a Bruckheimer film above 6.

BTW I saw that film at the Cinemark Webb Chapel 17 when it opened. My ears were bleeding, but the projectionist I complained to said he couldn't do anything about it because the SDDS was lowered all the way down to -10. I would have rather heard it in analog mono. (Whoever EQ'd those auditoriums should be shot. They are ALL that bad! Then again, so is every Bruckheimer movie of recent years.)

Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 02-03-2002, 08:47 PM:

quote:
the fact is: Some theatres receive instructions from head offices : Fader setting is `"7" run everything that way: period "Don't touch that dial".

Thats sounds dumb. What happens when customers complain that the sound is too loud? Do they just give them refunds?

The thing about those head offices, at least for the 2 companies I've worked for is that they are rarley at the theatre and have no idea how things are working in the booth! Thier main concern has always been how well the concessions and customer service are doing.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-03-2002, 08:56 PM:

Actually they very much apply as it is garbage in = garbage out
And that is one of many films that the this was true for another was Mummy2 Twister Fast and Furious all stayed over the 80% modulation point for extended peroids

Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 02-03-2002, 08:58 PM:

Re

on't touch that Dial
I never said that this was smart, this is just a reality check, what you say that none of higher echelon are in their theatres, you're right, and yeah they do get complaints and do give out refunds for many different things .On Vacation once, I was in a first run theatre (circuit owned) watching a picture,Friday night first showing, film went "misframed" between trailers and feature. I went out and mentioned this to an attendant,4- 5 minutes later no change!!, I go back complain again offering to adjust it for them, They say sorry! no one allowed in the booth except employees! What happened next!, They Stop the show and refund everyone Wow!

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Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 02-03-2002, 09:03 PM:

I can imagine exactly what happened there! The projectionist probably went home for the night, and noone knew how to adust the frame!

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-05-2002, 01:53 AM:

Brad, I am not so sure your eq vs loudness theory is valid. Consider for example an eq which is set say 3dB too high (above flat) at the high and low ends, but is 3dB deficient (below flat) in the midrange, say between 800Hz and 5kHz. It could still read the same total SPL of 85dBC as the flat response, but would sound a bit soft, because human hearing is most sensitive around 3kHz, falling off either side of that. So bad eq will not necessarily mean "sounds louder", it could equally result in "sounds softer". Just a little food for thought here.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-05-2002, 02:20 AM:

A bad EQ sounds "harsher" and people associate "harsher" with "louder" and ask the projectionist to turn it down because it hurts their ears.

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 02-05-2002, 06:47 AM:

I suppose it depends on the definition of "harsher". Bad EQ does not necessarily mean harsher, at least according to my definition, although certain poor EQ practices can certainly result in "harsher" sound. My thinking is that peaks in response in the 1kHz to 3kHz range will most likely be perceived as harsh.

Also high frequency horn speakers tend to be a bit hard sounding at best, and it does not take too much peaking in the response at just the right frequencies to grossly accentuate that. They can take on a real "in-your-face" type of sound that I, and I am sure others, find objectionable.

Regardless of the reason, if people are consistently asking the projectionist to turn it down, then it IS too loud no matter what the fader is set to, and no matter what the artistic aspirations of the producer/director/mixer might be. Personally, as a paying customer(which is what I usually am), if it is hurting my ears, then I don't really give a flying damn why, I just want the volume lowered to a reasonable level so I can enjoy the movie I paid to see and hear! As a technical person, I am certainly interested in the reasons for the sound problems, and I would want to do whatever I could to help the theater correct the problems. But when I have paid my money, I do not expect to have my ears hurt.

Just to give some perspective, when we were in a different location, we had a very nice screening room. The sound system was tuned beautifully, and I could achieve over 120dB spl in that room. I could play films with levels approaching and occasionally exceeding that level. I could listen there at high levels easily and my ears did not complain. So I do not necessarily mind high spl as long as it does not hurt. (I do understand that excessive levels at long term exposure can cause hearing damage. I am not talking about that kind of hurt).

The bottom line is that IF the theater acoustics are good, and IF the system tuning is done properly, and IF the amplifiers are capable of providing sufficient power, and IF the film is mixed well, and IF the film audio content is not horrible sounding, THEN you may be able to run the film at reference level with no problems or complaints. Unfortunately many theaters and many films simply do not allow this happy set of events to occur.

And ultimately, what is more important - having the fader set to 7 or having customers who want to give you their money because they like the presentations at your theater?

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-05-2002, 06:51 AM:

Ray, your math is certainly valid, but I find the biggest problem is people who EQ to the magic curve and then walk away from the job, insisting that is the best it can ever get. Low end is rarely the problem (unless the bonehead tech rolls it off because "that's the subwoofer's job", which in turn is like turning up the midrange and high frequencies). In my experience, the problem with customer complaints always comes from the upper midrange frequencies. (Typically from 3-8Khz where sibilance is most prevalent.) Room volume and acoustics will ultimately dictate how steep or shallow that rolloff needs to be. Although generally a very minor change is necessary, I've never heard a good sounding auditorium where listening and ultimately trusting one's ears was not part of the process. An RTA is a tool, not a magic box for a tech to cheat his way to achieving the best possible sound. Surely you agree with those points.

Also Joe really does have the bottom line here. If the customers think it sounds great and continue to patronize that theater because of the "great sound", who really cares? Honestly now, we're in this to get people out of their homes, away from the DVD and to make money. I'm not agreeing with your fictional example that an EQ should be deficient between 800hz and 5Khz, but if that particular example of yours happens to sound fantastic in a particular auditorium and the customers are happy, it really does not matter how the end result was achieved. Some auditoriums have such a horrible echo or poor surround speaker type and placement that the surrounds must be played lower than reference. Is that wrong to turn them down? Of course not, and most every tech will agree. On the other hand, some auditoriums can really benefit from having the surrounds 1/2 to 1db louder, but in that instance you will see techs losing their mind. This is just foolish. What sounds right to the customers in a particular auditorium repeatedly film after film after film is what counts and continues to sell those tickets. (I clarify this because if only one film sounds good, then the EQ is no good.)

Also I think directors and sound mixers would rather have a room that did not look razor perfect on the RTA, received no customer complaints ...only praise and was played at (or very close to) reference 85db levels than an auditorium which is a perfect picture of the instructional manual that has to be played several db lower, losing it's impact in order to keep customer complaints down. That's not the way for us to make customers want to run out to their local cinema instead of waiting for the DVD release. That's just people being hard headed and stubborn.

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 02-05-2002, 07:08 AM:

Brad said this:"...but I find the biggest problem is people who EQ to the magic curve and then walk away from the job, insisting that is the best it can ever get."

He is SO right.

My experience has been that at almost every THX house I have been in, it sound like this is exactly what has happened. The tuning was done, the gear was packed up, and the technician went home. No listening. No fine tuning to pick up what the instruments can't. No subjectivism at all. I am an engineer, and I tend to like objective measurements. But I have also learned that ultimately, you stow the test equipment that plugs in, and use the test equipment that comes attached to the sides of your head. It DOES NOT MATTER what the rta says if it still sounds bad.

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-05-2002, 07:59 AM:

Supposedly there is a standard now for trailer level, that the trailer sound level can't be louder than the actual film sound level... Are producers just increasing the film level to get their trailer level higher?
I've been in films where the ridiculously loud sound at 7 can't be just an EQ problem. And the trailers were excrutiating.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-05-2002, 08:29 AM:

You probably were in an auditorium with a poor EQ, crappy speakers, poor speaker placement and aiming, no baffle wall, poor acoustics and so forth.

The trailer standards thing is a joke. I've only seen a decrease of about 2db. That's nowhere near enough.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-05-2002, 10:46 AM:

Here are some links to information about the trailer loudness and the TASA standard:
http://www.boxoff.com/issues/feb01/tasa.html
http://www.mpaa.org/jack/2001/2001_05_09.htm
http://www.dolby.com/press/meter.html
http://www.dolby.com/press/wb.pr.0101.AMPAS.html
http://www.usatoday.com/life/health/doctor/lhdoc200.htm
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/general/sound_levels.pdf
http://media-services.com/newsletters/ABjun01.htm#story6
http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/SepOct01/ioan_allen_one.html
http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/NovDec01/ioan_allen_two.html
http://www.thx.com/professional_services/guidelines.pdf

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 02-05-2002, 04:49 PM:

I SET MY LEVELS ACCORDING TO MY AUDIENCE.
A ROOM FULL OF GRANNIES WILL BE PLAYED AT "5.5" HOWEVER AT MY LATE & LOUD SESSIONS "8" IS THE NORM.
A FULL AUDITORIUM FOR ME WILL ALWAYS BE CRANKED UP HALF A NOTCH.

HOWEVER 5 MINUTES IN THE AUDITORIUM WILL GIVE ME A GOOD INDICATION OF THE CORRECT LEVEL.

I HAVE TRAINED MY USHERS TO BE AWARE OF SOUND & PICTURE PROBLEMS & REPORT DIRECTLY TO THE BOX ANY CONCERNS.

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 02-05-2002, 06:20 PM:

I think we're finally getting a concensus which indicates that sound, which is too loud/harsh/distorted/injurous etc, is bad for business.

Now we have to get away from the stereotypical view that older audiences like it quiet. The simple fact is that mature cinemagoers, like all genuine movie enthusiasts, prefer the sound to be appropiate to the image.

Too often, levels are set by projectionists who are only interested in the latest 'popcorn' movie. There's a noticable reluctance to print-check films like The Others, Gosford Park or A Beautiful Mind yet a positive clamour for Monsters Inc and Black Hawk Down.

Cheers,

Frank.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-05-2002, 06:47 PM:

David F.,

Welcome to the Forums, but there's no need to SHOUT!

(Pretty ironic, in this thread about sound volume)

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-05-2002, 07:40 PM:

Brad, I don't think the auditorium setup and EQ is always responsible.
I've set up reasonable size rooms with decent acoustic treatment, adequate amps, modern correctly sized screen and surround speakers (either JBL or EAW), with no frame rattles. Setup is with the recommended SPL on all channels, RTA using an R2 and multiplexer, with no radical EQ applied.
I don't trust the RTA entirely and I'll do a listening test to check for any oddities or harshness.
With the fader at 7 some soundtracks are just too frigging loud. Not distorted or harsh, loud.
At 7 there are some trailers that are really painful. I can't recall the film but the trailer had some opera stuff, a soprano singing something dramatic. I was not the only one covering my ears!
Setting 7 on the fader is supposed to give us the level the director wants us to hear.
I've had personal experience with a director who must be partially deaf, we would set up the opening screenings he came to at his "official" level and deal with any complaints - but no show after he left was as loud.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-05-2002, 09:05 PM:

Certain movies like "Mummy" and "Mummy 2" are mixed louder than the standard. Way louder. Also I would never play trailers at "7" since they are mixed louder than the movies themselves in order to grab your attention. I usually play trailers at around 4.5 or lower. I actually want them to seem a little on the quiet side.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-05-2002, 09:05 PM:

Here is a little experience from running premiers with the Director, producer, editor...etc in the audience....

They want it damn loud. It gets EQed until THEY like it and it gets played as loud as THEY want it. And let me tell you, on some of these premiers, we have had very mad people come into the booth to tell us to TURN IT DOWN, yet the director still wanted it even louder! I swear the people in Hollywood are deaf! One big show, I couldn't stand being in the theatre for more than 15 minutes...it really hurt my ears...not only was it loud but way too shrill.

The guy mixing these films just don't get it....they need to first start with the dialogue and get that level right and natural then make EVERYTHING else conform to it...music should set a mood, NEVER compete with dialogue. Short "stings" with loud effects can add a great impact that virtually no one will mind. Continous loud effect make all of them seem just too damn loud and less important.

It isn't just the tuning of the system, films are really being mixed too loud, in general. Every now and again, I run a film where 7 really is a great level...things seem very well balanced.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-05-2002, 09:10 PM:

quote:
Stephen J. Guttag wrote:
The guy mixing these films just don't get it...

I agree completely with Steve's post. I have a theory that the sound mixers begin to lose their hearing after being at the mixing board day after day after day. Eventually they crank it up so it seems slightly loud to them and horribly loud to normal people.

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 02-06-2002, 02:37 AM:

Re' Film-makers insisting on high volume levels.

I DO stand to be corrected on this but the word was, a few years ago, that Steven Spielberg was not entirely happy with excessive level during a performance of Saving Private Ryan in the UK.

Could have been one of those ghastly rummors that perpetuate among the "old women" of the industry.

Cheers,

Frank.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-06-2002, 09:44 AM:

The other day I had to do a service call on a high speed projector at recording studio that was mixing a new major release and when I went into the screening room the soundlevel was unberable and the big discusion was from the director was if they went to a 8 channel mix could they make it louder. That is why fader 7 is irrelivent

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 02-06-2002, 04:52 PM:

A quick story. Right after Batman & Robin came out (remember that POS?), we had a screening of it for a joint meeting of the SoCal members of AES and SMPTE at the AMPAS' theater in Beverly Hills. The meeting topic was the theater's new sound system--John Argle did the engineering presentation. The sound designer for B&R was there too (no names here; he's listed in the IMDB), to conduct a Q&A after the screening. B&R was then screened, using one of the first of the new Technicolor prints no less, with yours truly stuck in the forth row.

At the end, a polite charity applause was given from this full house of industry people. The first question of the Q&A: "Was it that loud on the mixdown stage?"

To which said sound designer proudly answered, "Oh no. On the mixdown stage it was a lot louder!" [emphasis his] He went on to say that Schumacher likes his films loud and that they were probably averaging 105 dB during the mix sessions. His motto as told to us that night: "If it says 'Schumacher' anywhere in the credits, you don't want to sit in the front row."

Joe's theory is correct. Constant exposure to high SPL causes one's hearing to accomodate to it. If one mixes to a level by ear, say just to the point where one can feel an "edge" to the mix, after a while one needs to raise that level in order to feel the same "edge." Take it from this former Las Vegas showroom soundman, it does indeed become a vicious circle of ever increasing SPL, mostly because producers and performers don't want to hear excuses as to why the room doesn't sound satisfying anymore. Audience complaints and OSHA violations mean nothing to them. I'm sure that veteran soundstage mixers are experiencing the same cause and effect.

BTW here's the OSHA SPL exposure limits chart (most Las Vegas showrooms and lounges use the 2-hour limit, fine for the audience, hell for the crew): http://home.i1.net/~praetor/sound/osha.html

Paul
"WhaddayaDEAF!?"
"No, I hear that question every day."
Today's Sound Dept. Motto: If it's too loud, you're too old.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-06-2002, 04:56 PM:

My motto:

If it says 'Schumacher' anywhere in the credits, you don't want to see the movie.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-06-2002, 06:26 PM:

Actually there was talk of OSHA limiting mixer and anyone on the mixing stage to a max of 4 hour shifts (including director) at one point
I gues that fell by the way side

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 02-06-2002, 06:56 PM:

Schumacher ruined the Batman movies. Batman with Nipples? That's just dumb. Tim Burton put out a much better product.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 02-07-2002, 03:46 PM:

OSHA's standard limits an 8-hour time weighted average exposure to 85dBA. I have no doubt that many directors and engineers have spent way more than this amount of time listening to sustained levels in their studios and that their hearing has suffered.

I have worked concerts where the house levels at the mix positions were excruciating and ceiling tiles started falling down! Its one thing to "like it loud", its quite another to use your damaged hearing to judge how loud other people like it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-07-2002, 04:11 PM:

And this is precisely why when the sound mix is finished, it really isn't! A good mixer should go back at least one day later and listen to the entire film from start to finish after his hearing has had a chance to relax and return to normal (or at least as normal as it can get). Unfortunately, I think a lot of this has to do with the current trend of finishing the post production 3 days before the movie opens. I'll bet a lot of sound mixers simply do not have the time to do a final listen and this sort of problem forces them to sit in that mixing room all day and night to get the job done.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-10-2002, 04:49 AM:

I suggest we leave the sound mixers out of this. It is the director and/or producers who determine how loud a movie soundtrack is, not the sound mixer.

And none of these people are deaf, thank you very much! Take it from a guy who mixed live variety television shows for fifteen years. Day after day during live musical numbers I would crank up my twin JBL 4333's to levels that would pin any normal human being to the back wall of the control room, and here I am 51 years old and my hearing is no worse than the average for any other person of my age. It is now well known that hearing damage arises from the stress of being subjected to unwelcome excessive and unpleasant volume levels, not from high SPL's on their own. This is why so many aging rock musicians, who by the old reckoning should be stone deaf, have hearing as good as anyone else their age.

Any half-way-decent sound mixer knows what is loud and what is not. Of course there are exceptions as I noted earlier in this thread. However If the sound mixers want to mix loud (and they often do for the same reason a musician likes to hear himself loud when he plays) then they can turn up the monitor fader. However when the soundmix is played back and checked, the monitor is normally turned back down to reference level which is what the audience is supposed to hear, and this is usually when the director hears it and says he wants it louder. Blame the directors who want their movie to have IMPACT!! not the sound engineers. And blame the idiot advertising executives who think that the audience is not being "moved" if the volume of their trailers is not ear-shatteringly loud.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-10-2002, 08:31 AM:

Ray:
I've never heard the theory that liking a noise immunizes you to hearing loss from it. Where is this "well known"?
Sound is sound is sound... too loud + too long = hearing loss.
Fact: many "aging rock musicians" have severe hearing loss, I know quite a few. I suggest you read "Musicians and the prevention of hearing loss" by Marshall Chasin, ISBN 1565936264.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-11-2002, 05:23 AM:

Dave, did I use the word immunise? Did I say ALL ageing musicians had normal hearing? You missed my point entirely.

There are many little old ladies who never, ever listened to anything "loud" who also have severe hearing loss. Age itself causes hearing loss and depending on hereditory, environmental and other factors it may be mild, medium or severe. There have been numerous medical studies into hearing loss that indicate that loud sound alone is not the primary cause of hearing loss, that it is also the degree of "unpleasantness" of the loud sound to the listener that seems to have the most damaging effect. Now in this context, "unpleasantness" does not mean how much you like or don't like the music, it is how much it causes stress to your ears, particularly when it reaches the level of mild pain. The worst effected people have generally been observed to be those that have worked in highly "unpleasant", stressfully noisy environments, such as a drop forge, where the noise is painfully loud and until recent times, unavoidable.

Of course some "ageing rock musicians" will be deaf, just as some ageing little old ladies will be deaf, but many "ageing rock musicians" also have perfectly normal hearing for their age. The point is that sound, too loud, too long, also seems to need "too unpleasant" or "too stressful to the hearing system" to cause significant hearing loss above the normal average.

Of course even this is an over simplification. Which brings us back to Brad's statement that "bad eq" makes a movie soundtrack sound louder. Sound which is sharp or "peaky" in the midrange, definitely sounds far less "pleasant" than sound of equal SPL but which is flat. Most sound mixers work in well equalised studio environments that are as flat as possible. So "turning up the wick" usually does not make the sound any less pleasant (up to some reasonable limit). I have not read the book that you refer to but I suspect that it would make reference to the importance of avoiding sharp, ear-piecing sound levels.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 02-11-2002, 07:49 AM:

Usually my level 7 tends to be about right.

I found that my pearl and dean adds and trailers run at about 7 and a half.

Films run at around 7 or 7 and a half max.

A few exception Croutching Tiger i think i had to run low at about 6 and a half.

Moulin Rouge 8

And Grease (lastnight) i had to run at about 8 / 8 and a half (vocals were a bit quiet)

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 02-11-2002, 09:57 AM:

The worst film for complaints I had was for that fire fighting disaster epic BACKDRAFT (1991), so many in fact that in desperation we finished up riding the fader each run. Perhaps I should have tried it mono.

There were complaints of being too loud on the first day of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, so I wound down L & R about 2db. Seemed much better to me and there were no further complaints.

Some will remember the sound problems with GIANT (1954), cue sheets were sent out with every copy in the UK.

Posted by Laurence Hammett (Member # 1134) on 02-11-2002, 11:07 AM:

Whenever I finish adjusting an auditorium I tell the staff that "7" is:
Friday night with a full house
The Tone Deaf Director and his entourage in a sound stage
Any afternoon with Joe, the field hippy saying "Hey dude, could you turn it up, Grandma isn't here."

Everything else is around 6 and if you turn it down much more than that FOR ONE PERSON, you will ruin it for the rest of your audiences for the rest of the day because you will be down popping the corn and sweeping the theatre rather than coming upstairs to check on the levels again.

Of course I also tell them that this is true on a properly mixed feature and that some independents and non-us features vary widely.

Laurence Hammett
Field Service Technician
Southern California

GO INTO THE AUDITORIUM during the FEATURE and listen yourself. THEN adjust the volume accordingly.

Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 02-11-2002, 11:17 AM:

Here's another one: We check in Auditorium, if it sounds right, we assume that it's ok for patrons, If we get complaints, we'll re-check and if it still seems right, we don't touch it,BUT we do tell the the person that complained that we adjusted it and enquire if it's Okay now, 99% of the time, they tell us "yes" it's much better now???? The same can be said for auditorium temperature settings??

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Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 02-11-2002, 12:15 PM:

Good point, Tom. I have used this trick for a while... when running stage monitors I've had the request for "a little more 1K", looked at the EQ, found it all the way up, just waved my hand over the console, and said, "Is that better?"

Almost every time they say "yes".

Posted by Rory Burke (Member # 512) on 02-11-2002, 04:13 PM:

I remember the "Relic" that movie was LOUDDDDDDD!!! In all of my THX houses cept for the bigger auditoriums it would make the amps clip.......I thought to myself.....what is the problem? I took out all my a-chain and b-chain equipment and verified that every thing was properly calibrated 300 mv out of the processor 85db lcr etc etc etc and it was.....the conclusion is that movies differ and my theater no exception THX or no THX auditorium...movies are just varying at the mixing stage too much and i agree with an earlier statement that said something about fader <7.0> just being obsolete and pointless now. Most theaters tune their rooms to the 7.0 standard and that keeps our end of things somewhat standardized but now I feel some of the responsibility falls onto the mixing stage<not nescessarirly the mixer either> but for people that make more of the decisions like directors and producers. I believe Gordon addressed this in an earlier post!

Rory

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-11-2002, 04:23 PM:

I don't remember "The Relic" specifically, but I still find that rarely *in a properly set up auditorium* does the fader need to be altered from movie to movie, nor very far from 7. I feel there IS a fair amount of consistency from mix to mix, but obviously not every film will play at the exact same level.

To further prove my point, you multiplex guys, don't you for the most part find a fader setting for each auditorium (regardless of what it actually is) and find that *most* movies play well at it? I have.

Funny Rory, I've had some people over to my screening room lately and ran action-intensive "loud" movies at 7.5, noticeably over "reference level" and after the show when questioned was told "volume was perfect" or "could've even been turned up just a touch more". Ya gotta trust your ears when you tune those things. If a sound tech cannot obtain fantastic sound without an R2, then that tech isn't very good. That really should be a requirement from Lucasfilm before certifying the tech. IMHO the R2 just makes things easier for a good tech to get great sound. It's just a tool.

Case in point I've walked into a THX auditorium fairly recently that was just tuned by a THX tech and had to lower the fader to 3.25 so my ears wouldn't bleed. Just being in there at "5" for a couple of minutes gave me a splitting headache! After looking at the EQ to see what in the HELL that guy did to it, I saw one slider after another up and down then the next one was up and the next one was down, all the way from one end to another with few exceptions! Now you're telling me that this "THX certified sound tech" did a good job just because it showed up as a perfectly flat line on his R2? Hell no.

You "I tune with an R2 and the fader must play at 5" guys are clearly never doing any listening and fine tuning afterwards with the most important test instrument of all...your ears!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-11-2002, 04:32 PM:

As always I have a problem with this fine tuning by ear
Since I service many screening room and heard the level in them at "7" then you would know that a theatre playing it a "7" and didn't get complaints then something is wrong
And if the system is "tuned" for it to be at "7" all the time and you get a "properly recorded" track you probably will run out of fader before getting it turned up enough

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-11-2002, 04:35 PM:

So you feel that even though your faders may play at 5 for most films that you need an extra 15db or so of volume on standby? What??? That's insane. I've never had a problem "running out of fader" before and here you are one of the people that are saying that 7 is way too loud.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to list a dozen "properly recorded" tracks of the last 10 years for referencing purposes?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-11-2002, 05:14 PM:

I remember "The Relic". We played that in our #4 house at UA Greenwood for a couple of weeks. 6.5 was the norm on the fader for movies in that auditorium. I thought the movie sounded very good at that level. Greenwood had no THX but was originally supposed to be before someone with the first name Larry and last name Jacob--- I forget the rest changed things around... adding all curved screens and stuff like that. Some of what he changed around was good while others were bad.

When I have helped open the projection booths at various theaters I have always found that the THX guys have the "WOW" reel that they listen to once after the final EQ. Every time I have seen them do this they only used the SR reel as it didn't have digital encoding on it. I guess the newer reels do.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-12-2002, 08:45 PM:

Another point to consider is the expected variation in analyser calibration. How many cinema techs can say absolutely for sure that their analyser SPL calibration is correct? How many forget to (or even don't know to) correctly install the microphone calibration files for each microphone? How many don't always use the correct mic for each channel, so that it matches it's calibration file? Don't laugh, I have seen this basic error more than a few times. I think some of the pros here would be surprised at the lack of knowledge and expertise of the "average" cinema technician, particularly when it comes to sound alignment.

Also there is the questionable practice of using only mic 1 when setting the final SPL. I think this is THX recommended practice and frankly I think it is downright foolish! Checking the individual spectral response for each microphone will usually reveal quite significant deviations from flat, even though the multi-mic averaged response is showing flat. So why set the SPL using a non-flat source and why use a mic which may not represent the true average SPL? Very bad idea, THX!!

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Scott Christopher (Member # 834) on 02-27-2002, 09:05 PM:

I run my faders at about 5.0 during the feature. anything above is usually too loud. I have had many elderly people come out of the cinema and comment on how it was so lovely not to be blasted away. And to back up my argument - Phillip Noyce, director of 'Rabbit Proof Fence' made comment to me and on Radio, "See this film in Digital. The best place in Adelaide in Cinema Nova" - He also told me that it was a bit loud - Not Bad, Fader set to 5.0 - EQ setting must be good.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-27-2002, 09:32 PM:

I've put little P-Touch labels on all the processors saying what their subjective fader level is. Most are 6.5, some actually stay on 7.

I feel if you have to play at 6 or below, then something has gone wrong with the alignment.

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And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by Ryan Powers (Member # 1059) on 02-28-2002, 12:56 AM:

I remember "The Relic"! I would put it in my top five loudest movies category. About three quarters of the way through three right side surround sound speaker blew. Other really loud movies I remember would be, Face/Off, Starship Troopers, and The Matrix. I am glad that they were played loud. Could you imagine watching The Matrix at a low volume?

As an audience member, I prefer movies to be loud, especially on action films.. It's part of the movie theater experience isn't it? Also it drowns out the people that enjoy talking during the film. I wonder what the theaters I go to play at, because It's been a long time since I have walked out of a theater thinking the sound was powerful or even close to being loud. Even the big movies this year such as Monsters Inc., Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter where I saw it in two separate theaters played very low and unimpressive. From what I could tell, I bet they were good sounding movies. That's the frustrating part. I guess I am just spoiled from the theater I used to go to before I moved because the sound was always loud and thunderous, and that included the auditoriums that were not THX certified. I find myself going to the theater a lot less now because I know not to expect much from the sound.

My personal opinion is it is better to be on the loud side then not. It is terrible to go to a movie and have hard time hearing what the actors are saying. Good comedies are a good example. Several movies such as "There's Something About Mary" and "The Nutty Professor 2" the laughter was louder then the film. All you could do was lip read in parts.

I don't like getting up once the movie has started, unless there is a major problem. Even then, most people will just wait for someone like me to get up after a while and inform someone of the problem. I did get up and ask for the volume to be turned up on Harry Potter but wasn't surprised when I couldn't tell any difference later on. I haven't gone back and probably won't.

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 02-28-2002, 01:28 AM:

Well Tim T. You certainly started something with this topic.

There's one common misconception throughout many of the posts particularly among those who regard "The Matrix" as a new religion.

It's that mature technicians are somehow, not qualified to judge correct volume levels.

Correctly calibrated volume, when appropiate, CAN enhance the overall movie experience but, in inexperienced hands it can also ruin it. The matter shouldn't be entirely subjective. The conciencious technician will consider (a) The intentions of the film-makers and (b) The expectations of the audience. The least important aspect is what the technician likes.

For the record, I've never forgotten the thrill, as an audience member, of Roadshow presentation when the curtains (traveller?) would close following the flat/mono ads/short and trailers, there would be a minute or so of silence. And then the thunderous opening chords of the Overture in multi-channel stereo.

Seems off-topic I know, but many technicians who advocate overplaying today have sadly, never experienced this wonder.

It's ALWAYS better on the big screen.

Kind regards,

Frank.

Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 02-28-2002, 01:53 AM:

Yeah this thread gets longer and longer, every day!

Anyway Queen of the Damned is another movie thats way too loud at Level 6, My ears were about to burst! But I can see these producers were just trying to sell the soundtrack.