Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Simplex Projector Head Leaking Oil

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Posted by Michael J. Barr (Member # 976) on 01-29-2002, 10:56 PM:

I have been told that the oil seals are not replaceable by my new projectionists here. I know that this can't be true, and am here just to confirm so. I am also curious as to how hard this "operation" would be to subject to all ten of my projectors seeing that they all have trash cans underneath them to catch the oil! Any help would be nice. Thank you all in advance!!

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-29-2002, 11:17 PM:

Michael,

What models do you have? All Simplex models prior to the legendary XL do leak oil by their very design; as the saying goes, if you can't beat 'em...join 'em. Drip pans under the head are just part of good housekeeping with the older Simplex -- nothing to be ashamed of or worry over. XL models on the other hand should not leak. The seal around the gear side cover are easily replaced and are by no means proprietary seal material. You can use any correctly sized rubber tubing to replace the original rubber gasket, should it have lost its integrity.

Posted by Michael J. Barr (Member # 976) on 01-29-2002, 11:28 PM:

MODEL #1050...these things are at least 10 years old, that I do know.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-30-2002, 12:07 AM:

Frank, all Simplexes leak. Even the year-old (at that time) Milleniums at my last theater leaked. So it's not surprising that the 1050s leak.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 01-30-2002, 12:25 AM:

quite frankly, the only machine that doesnt leak is a holmes, a microcine or a devry. everything else uder the sun(Brenkerts, Slimplexes, even century's on occasion will leak. on a brenkert, fold up a paper towel and wedge it between the oil pump cover and the case. On a simplex, put a drip pan under it and wipe it down occasionally. thats about all you can do. I was at a theatre once that had a pair of E-7's. They had pie tins under the machines and the were FULL of oil. as long as all the oil doesnt run out over the course of a night or as long as it isnt gushing out of the case, you will be ok.

Josh

Posted by Neil Hunter (Member # 1005) on 01-30-2002, 01:03 AM:

Michael,

The 1050 is the newer XL, if I remember correctly.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 01-30-2002, 01:27 AM:

Not all Simplex machines leak oil. This obvioulsy does not apply to the E7 type of total loss oiling - but they have built-in oil catchers.

It is normal for a small amount of oil to seep around the intermittent on older XL derived models, and if the machine is neglected a greasy mix of oil, dust, and dirt builds up. This is not a problem if the machine is properly cleaned and maintained.

It should not leak enough that a tin or pile of newspaper is needed to catch drips!

The #1 cause of leaking is having too much oil in the damn thing. The front glass tube is a bit tricky, you have to set the mark depending on the tilt.
If you look in the non-operating side when it's running and see a major fountain of oil spraying off the oil pump gear you have too much oil.
All you need is enough oil to cover the pickup filter when the machine is running. Drain it and SLOWLY add oil until the top of that pickup thingy is covered - with the cover off you can see it if you try. (check that the pickup is at the front for down tilts... if it's at the back "drive-in" position the oil level will need to be way too high) Once it's covered, mark the level on the sight glass. You need enough oil so it never gets below that level when running, so add another 1/2" of oil above the minimum and start her up. (cover on I hope) After a few minutes the oil situation should be stable, if the level is below minimum add more until it is enough. Stop the machine, wait 10 minutes, and mark the level on the glass. This is your filling level when stopped. The lower line is the minimum acceptable while running.

If that's OK check for where the oil is coming from.

Operating side leaks can be from:
the intermittent shaft
the intermittent/framing ring seal
the framing ring seal to the case
upper or lower sprocket shafts
upper or lower sprocket assembly casting seals to the case

Non-operating side:
the door seal
the drive shaft seal

And as a bonus the shutter shaft can leak as can the seal between the case and the shutter bearing assembly or its mounting screws.

The door seal is easiest to stop leaking, usually just wiping the case and seal with some solvent on a rag and then carefully tightening the cover down (not over-tighten!) is all it takes. Removing the cover usually gets the case and seal soaked in oil, and once that happens it will seep through the joint. If both are clean and dry when installed it works a whole lot better. No matter how tight you crank the case down it will leak if the seal is oily.

All the other parts have a problem if they leak.

There is an updated main drive shaft seal kit - if that's the problem and you have the old type, the new type is a good seal and not bad to replace if it has failed.

Running sprocket shafts don't have "seals", they have spirals cut in the shaft that pull oil back into the case via a drain hole. If the drain hole is blocked or the "wick" is gone oil can build up and leak out.

There is some type of gasket under the sprocket assemblies. The 1050 probably has paper gaskets, newer ones have a rubber ring.

The intermittent is tricky. If it leaks past the shaft enough to need a catch can, it's in trouble. The shaft/case tolerance should be extremely tight! If it's just seeping a little (no drips but it gets oily and gummy) then the cost of fixing it is unjustified. Current design has a little tiny O-ring seal to stop any seeping but the older ones, you just live with it.
Seepage around the intermittent case and framing ring is not abnormal, but they shouldn't leak enough to drip. These parts have an arrangement of channels and drain holes that encourage the oil to drain into the case but not actual seals - depending on the age of the machine. I think the framing ring got an O-ring around the 1050 era and the intermittent one came with the Millennium, but I'm not sure.
It should be reasonably easy to find and correct any serious oil leak.

Posted by Sean M. Grimes (Member # 445) on 01-30-2002, 02:58 AM:

also the Chistie P35GPS will not leak. Well I guess that it can. But definitely not in a E7/1050 type of way. Of course I would rather replace sight and drain plug gaskets than have to deal with any complete belt system....

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-30-2002, 04:38 AM:

Of course the seal can be replaced. Anyone that tells you it can't doesn't have a clue as to what they are saying. Strong will sell you either a whole kit to rebuild that assy., which I reccommend, or just the seal itself. You could even obtain one from a local bearing shop I suppose. Should cost you around 3 bucks.

Some of the early seals I've seen circa early 80's were not a press fit into the bearing retainer, but a siliconed in sort of thing and that didn't work too well. If yours is this type then you definately need the whole kit. I have also seen some drive gear/pulleys without the finely ground area for the seal to seat on. These were also from the early days of these seals. If in doubt here about anything, again, the kit will rectify the problem to a large degree. Any other leaks you can attempt to take care of as you find them. The oil sight glass, both the front mounted, or the later Yamaha round sight glass on the film side, is another sometimes leak prone place. There are ways to deal with both of them that work quite well. If you need a seal kit let me know, we always have them in stock(5 star drive pulley version) at GTS.

David is right, the Millenneium has had many leak fixes doen to it all of which work quite well. The only improvement they could still make is the Yamaha round type sight glass area. Its still not 100% leak proof like other areas that have been taken care of. But compared to the rest of the leaks that used to exist and appear after several years its a whole lot better than it ever has been. And yes, older X-L's will leak right through the alumnium castings! Having machined a hundred or so of these myself for turrets of various types I can attest as to how porus, and thin walled many of the really old castings are. The new main frames are way heavier than the older ones, and leak far less. Anyone that tells you an old black X-L is built better has no idea as to how the new machines are now built! The new ones are Simply way better.
Mark @ GTS
www.getgts.com
mark@getgts.com

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-30-2002, 09:48 AM:

On the 1050 there are two synthetic type seals on the gear cover. One for the window and one for the cover it's self. If these covers have been removed in the past the cavers may not have been put back on correctly. A gap between the cover and the projector head could be present allowing oil to leak past the seal.

Take the cover off and see if oil has gotten into the seal. If it has try and squeeze it out by running your thumb across the seal. Oil wil seep out of the join point of the gasket.

If it takes a wrench to remove the three cover screws, then the screws are way too tight. When replacing the screws make sure you tighten in even turns going around in a clockwise direction.

prior to putting the cover back on. Take some alcohol and clean the oil from the seals and around the head casting area that the seals touch. THis will help prevent passages for oil to seep thru. Make sure you position the cover so that the seals meet the casting flush. You do not want gaps between the seals and the casting to occure.

If this is were the leaks are coming from, most likely, this should slow them down considerably. It will not eliminat them permanently.

Hope this helps

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-30-2002, 10:56 AM:

If it takes a wrench to remove the gear cover its probably warped too. Be sure to check for this and if you find that it is, it can be bent back carefully and straightend out before you re-install it. Use a channel lock or a large vise to do this. when you re-install the cover, tighten the hold down screws evenly, and just enough to make a good continous seal all the way around. If it is warped badly, replace the door with a new one. They are now much heavier than the old ones and Strong has a new red gasket that works really well and also helps prevent future door warpage from a booth monkey with a wrench! Another small but important improvement they have done to the X-L.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 01-30-2002, 09:41 PM:

I'll add another model to your "non-leaking" list, Josh. I don't think I've ever seen a Motiograph leak any oil either! Both my Brenkert and my Simplex Super are dry as a bone. My big leak is the 9030 soundhead, but it's really only enough to fill a saucer in a month's time. I think I'd feel funny using the machine without wiping it down first. It's like pumping the gas on an old car. It's a ritual.

Posted by Michael J. Barr (Member # 976) on 01-30-2002, 09:48 PM:

Thank you all for your help. We will begin to see if we can remedy these problems with your suggestions...