Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Exactly WHAT type of oil is BEST for the intermittent?

This is topic Exactly WHAT type of oil is BEST for the intermittent? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-06-2002, 11:17 PM:

Well? .... I'm not new to machinery, but new to projectors .... the old guy here uses a mix of Castrol Motorcycle fork oil and Shellite ?!?!?!?!?!?!? .... This can't be right! ... Is it?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-06-2002, 11:27 PM:

You should use the oil recommended by the manufacturer as there are differences from one make to another. Some also swear by LaVezzi's synthetic oil (LaVezzi is the company that makes the critical intermittent parts for many well known projectors.) But certainly not some homemade mixture.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-07-2002, 01:01 AM:

The projectors are 'Monee' ..... I know what you're thinking .... but that's all we've got. The Model# is MSP-AT , which probably doesn't tell anyone very much.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-07-2002, 01:22 AM:

.. Oh ... and the manual tell you sweet-diddily about which lubricants to use

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-07-2002, 01:51 AM:

Aye, mate......I use Hydraulic Oil AW ISO 10 anti-wear High-Speed Spindle Oil in Brenkerts (Brenkert Oil) and Texaco WF-32 in the Simplex XL, Century, Cineshittie. The only time I had a movement freeze up and self-distruct is when someone ran it out of oil.

I don't know anything about the Monee....but be careful of the concoption you use in it. Until you find out, I would suggest you stay with the manufacturer's recommendation.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 02-07-2002, 02:32 AM:

Some will tell you as the Monee is just a copy of the Century that you should use Century oil in them. However, oil specification has a lot to do with the grades of material in use, and I doubt that Monee use the same grades of steel as Strong. Just look at the way the things wear compared with the Century! Over here the Monee agent supplies some form of oil specifically for Monee. I have no idea what it is, but it's about the same viscosity as Century stuff, darker in colour and smells like vegetable oil.
The Lavezzi oil sounds like a good idea, if they don't know what to lubricate cross-boxes with, the rest of us don't stand much chance!

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-07-2002, 09:21 AM:

After reading the DP70 manual. I asked the Tech hotline guy at Shell to give me the modern day equivalent of the manufacture's outdated oil specification. He says "Shell Turbo T 46". So I use that. If that Lavezzi oil wasn't so darned expensive, I'd use that

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-07-2002, 09:41 AM:

I'm the guy that Steve K. knows that swears by LaVezzi oil. Since the Monee is a direct copy of the Century Projector the use of the LaVezzi stuff is highly reccommended. Al LaVezzi himself will tell you that the life of the intermittent can almost be extended twofold by the use of their oil. It is also a little heavier than most reccommended oils so it won't leak out of the movement as fast either. It is also used in the Christie Ultramittent as well so the use of it in older Simplex projectors would also be wise. I have also used it extensively in Norelco DP-70's. It is more expensive than any other oil though and runs just under $80.00 a gallon. I can also supply it in quart bottles as well. We always have it in stock.
On another note, expensive 35mm motiion picture cameras are lubed with a 60:40 mixture of Marvel Mystery oil and pure mineral oil. Marvel is thin so the mineral oil is there just to help keep it in place!
Mark @ GTS
www.getgts.com
mark@getgts.com

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-07-2002, 09:47 AM:

The Monee is the same as the cinecitta a century knockoff but the tolerances are typically also off
I usually use a slightly heaver oil in them or it will usually just run out before it does any good
Normally I use a sae30 in them nondetergent from imperial oil

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 02-07-2002, 11:11 AM:

"Al LaVezzi himself will tell you that the life of the intermittent can almost be extended twofold by the use of their oil. "

I understand the gross effects and know to follow recommendations, but I've not understood the mechanics behind such claims. I know that oil forms a thin surface that parts "rub" against rather than bare metal, but WHY is one oil better than others for a particular application? Does it have to do with operating temperature, amount of pressure between moving parts, what?
I'm sorely lacking in knowledge here.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-07-2002, 12:44 PM:

Jerry said: "I know that oil forms a thin surface that parts "rub" against rather than bare metal, but WHY is one oil better than others for a particular application? Does it have to do with operating temperature, amount of pressure between moving parts, what?
I'm sorely lacking in knowledge here."

The subject is so complex, you can actually get an advanced degree in "Tribology":
http://www.mech-eng.leeds.ac.uk/tribology/research.html
http://www.pim.tsinghua.edu.cn/sklt/source/tribology.html
http://www.steelynx.net/tribology.html

One of my co-workers at Kodak is a "Tribologist", an expert in the surface/frictional properties of moving parts (including film), and using lubricants to optimize those properties.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-07-2002, 01:47 PM:

Jerry, John,
It has more to do with how fast the oil in use breaks down, how fast it turns acedic, etc and then looses any of the lubricating qualities. You still have to rely on a filtration system to remove any particulate matter. This is one area that is lacking in most oil bath type projectors. The Brenkert and Norelco DP-70 are an exception to this problem though, the Norelco in particuluar has an excellent filtration system that utilizes a fine mesh brass screen, and large magnet for reducing particulate matter. LaVezzi oil also has an additive that permeates into the metal about a micron or so to aid in reducing friction. Not breaking down under extreme use is where synthetic oil really stands out. There is an interesting web site for Mobil-1 automotive oil that explains how it is made and why one should use it. http://www.mobil1.com/index.jsp
And of course I use Mobil-1 in my car, not the stuff from LaVezzi!
Mark @ GTS

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-07-2002, 01:56 PM:

Using a magnet to catch tiny ferrous particles is such a good idea, I'm surprised it isn't used more. Guess the fear is it won't be properly maintained (cleaned), so all the "nasties" are in a clump that could do more harm than good.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-07-2002, 02:48 PM:

The magnet has almost always been standard in the prevosts, ernamann's and cinemecanica's
Though I still take exception to the magnet being beside the mag head in the penthouse of a vic 8 with the mag stripe passing right by

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-07-2002, 05:15 PM:

Wow you guys are a wealth of information!

What would we do with film-tech eh? (Hats off to Brad Miller) ..... My next Q is ... Does anybody know how I may find an Australian distributor for the Lavezzi oil? And is there a paticular number for the oil. (I assume they have many grades available)

Once again guys, thanks for your help .... now, do I dare ask what everyone uses for the gear side of things? Currently we use a general Valvoline wheel bearing grease that contains lithium compound (it's a blue grease Val Plex EP)

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-07-2002, 06:00 PM:

Oh .... also .... The fork oil the old guy was using in the intermittent was an SAE20 .... however, he likes to spray shellite around a fair bit, and I think some of it may have found it's way in to the intermittent, because what drained out seemed 'very' thin. BTW, what started all this was a 'knocking' noise in the intermittent.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-07-2002, 06:32 PM:

Matt,
There is only one type of LaVezzi oil. Contact Norm Lauderbach at norm@lavezzi.com for the name of your nearest LaVezzi distributer.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-07-2002, 07:18 PM:

I think you will find it too light for the monee machines

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-07-2002, 07:37 PM:

Actually its a bit over 10 weight which is about right. Its actually a bit dark as compared to most oils!

Another avantage is that it does not evaporate and become gummy and leave deposits in the oil spirals. If ya want to question its use talk to Norm or Al at LaVezzi!
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-07-2002, 07:51 PM:

Thanks Mark

.. Cheers

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-07-2002, 07:55 PM:

.... It couldn't be any lighter than what came out of it!!!

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 02-07-2002, 10:11 PM:

The oil that was in it (as well as whatever else!) was SAE 20. Is this right to use or not?

Posted by Stan Gunn (Member # 554) on 02-08-2002, 02:42 AM:

Hi Matt

Idont think you will find an agent for lavezzi here in oz
I us SHELL TONNA 68 in every thing it even decreases the lens misting problem with the BAUER U3, I feel grease is not a good thing to use on the rear of most open geared machines as it can prevent oil from getting to the right place by blocking oilways.

The tonna oil is great for open gears as it sticks to the gear and does not get thrown off as other oils will, it can be used in the intermittant as it is light enough, it does not load up a cold machine as some oils do.
After useing it for ten years and no problems I think that speaks for it self, and you can buy it at your local shell agent.

------------------
KALEE FOREVER.
ALL PARTS FOR VICTOR AND KALART VICTOR 16MM PROJECTORS.SERVICE TO 35 AND 16MM PROJECTION EQUIPMENT.
35MM sprockets made to order.

Posted by Jonathan Worthing (Member # 803) on 02-08-2002, 03:25 AM:

If you can't get the right oil for the Monee, 3 in 1 is the best alternative that I've found.

Also with the filling cap on the Monee it is probably one of the best ways of filling it without spilling oil all over the shop..

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-08-2002, 11:39 AM:

Stan,
There should be someone down there in OZ. If a dealer can supply an Intermittent rebuild kit for a Century, or older Simplex he must be a LaVezzi dealer or a Wolk Dealer.....It is also available through Edw H. Wolk in Chicago as well.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-08-2002, 06:09 PM:

I don't think oil is a good choice for Century type open gears. maybe the member suggesting that is thinking of a closed, oil lubricated machine? There aren't any oil holes to block on the Century - there isn't any oil either

I'm assuming the Monee is the same...
Make sure you use a grease made for "open gear" use as this type is a bit sticky, and doesn't liquify as readily as chassis or gearcase grease.
The gears themselves just need a dab of grease on the meshing teeth occasionally. Overgreasing just makes an unholy mess as the grease gets slung all over the inside of the machine. Also, rack the framing all the way to one end, grease the vertical shaft that's exposed, rack it the other way and repeat. You want the shaft-gear area to be well lubed. Check for keyway wear while greasing it too, the sliding gear shouldn't turn very much at all on the shaft.

Posted by Stan Gunn (Member # 554) on 02-08-2002, 10:41 PM:

Mark
Not that I am aware of, we have monopolys here that beleive they should be the only ones to supply cinema parts. So they may take on an agentsy and do not promote it, stops the oppersition from geting it.
Intermittants are usualy repaired by makeing one out six.
I am slowely tooling up to make parts for some types of movements,
I repin cams and rebuild and rebush movements for our locally made projectors also simplex and century.

Dave
have you ever seen a Century full of Graphite grease?
When you deal with this mentality, oil is the best way to go, But yes I agree with you, I look after a pair of centurys were grease is used sparingly and with little mess, But I still advise oil on the vertical shaft.

------------------
KALEE FOREVER.
ALL PARTS FOR VICTOR AND KALART VICTOR 16MM PROJECTORS.SERVICE TO 35 AND 16MM PROJECTION EQUIPMENT.
35MM sprockets made to order.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-09-2002, 09:26 PM:

Ben,
Nothing worse than a projector gear train full of grease no matter what type it is. The worst is a machine full of heavy bearing grease or lubriplate! I agree with you on the oil. In fact the original Century C manual specifies a few drops of oil on each gear pair at the start of the day, once and a while on the vert shaft. Of course that was before the modern greases(superlube) that one should be using on these gears today.

On another note, LaVezzi makes a nice hardened steel verticle shaft assy for the Century. It cannot bend like the stock shaft does. I used to rebuild tons of Centurys and I had a batch of hardened shutter shafts made to go along with their vert. shaft. I used S-7 tool steel hardened to R65 and then ground to size at Boston Centerless. All of these machines are still running very well, many after 10+ years. If any of you down under need something from LaVezzi just let me know.
Sometimes with older stuff there is no choice but to make one good one out of 6. Thats common with Motiograph projectors around the states.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-09-2002, 10:56 PM:

Hadden theatre supply had a hardend century shutter shaft available