This is topic CIR Splicers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-11-2002, 09:01 PM:
I have 3 different kinds of splicers at my theater. I am pretty sure they are CIR, because they all say "Costruzione Incollatrici Rapide ROMA" on the bottom. Here are what they look like. 
(The one above says "CIR M.2" on it, so I know this is genuine CIR.}
I have several questions.
1. Is CIR the same as CIRO? If so, where does the "O" come from?
2. Why do these not have the side cutter that springs back up? I thought this was a feature of CIRs.
3. Someone on this site said that CIRs have a screw hole on the bottom for a base plate. None of these have that. I've used economy splicers at my last theater that did have the base plate. I know they were not CIR. What's up with that?
4. In regards to #3, the presence of the name "ferrania" would seem to indicate that it's a knockoff. Yet is still has that phrase whose initials are CIR.
Notice the part that you stick the tape down on to hold it back on the first splicer:
I have never seen this before. I have 2 of this particular kiind of splicer, and on one of them the bar fell out. Does anyone know what this peice is called and where I can get it from? A part number would be great if you have one.
I assume that the M.2 is an older model than the M.3? The two I have look brand new and are in great condition. Im asking about thise because CPI doesn't have the M.2 on their website, only the M.3. Could anyone tell me what models number 2 and 3 are?
Thanks for your help.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-11-2002, 09:43 PM:
They are all different vintages and models that is why they are different
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-11-2002, 09:54 PM:
Aaaaaaaaaaggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!The flashbacks! The nightmares! Take them away! Take them far far away!
Nice splicing tape. 
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-11-2002, 10:18 PM:
Joe,I know you think they blow, but I have no problems with my CIRs. The economy splicers at my last theater were, however, a different story. They were cheap peices of junk.
For the record, I have switched to using only clear tape for building prints. No more zebra tape.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-11-2002, 10:35 PM:
You know I have never had grief from a CIR splicer infact all I own are CIR's as well
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-11-2002, 10:40 PM:
The M3 is the deluxe version of the splicer. The M2 is the "standard" or no frills version.The M3 is the only one people should use though (presumming you like the CIR, which I don't have any problem with either).
I was under the impression that CIR and CIRO are the same and only differentiated by their importer (Goldberg uses the CIRO name). They have the same lettering with the "O" going around the "CIR" in the logo.
As to the parts, we can get what ever you want for the M2 or M3 of the CIR/CIRO.
Their part numbers are not fancy...they start with 1 and go up to however many parts are in the splicer.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-11-2002, 10:44 PM:
The "deluxe version". hehehehahaHAHAHAHARDYHARHAR! What a piece of crap. Nothing beats a Neumade 35SS! Nothing! Once you go Neumade, you'll never go back. (Assuming Strong fixed that little problem in the review, their splicer is awfully nice too...but I'll take a pair of scissors, a roll of splicing tape and a paper clip before I'll take a CIR splicer. Not even a print of "Freddy Got Fingered" deserves being spliced on a CIR.)
Gordon, make me some sample splices on a CIR and bring them to ShoWest. I want to see how your CIRs are performing. I've never met one that did not deserve to be thrown in a trash compactor.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-11-2002, 11:07 PM:
Funny that is my opinion of neumade splicers (sorry bob)
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-11-2002, 11:47 PM:
I know there has been much debate on this forum about which splicer is best. Unfortunately, I have no control over what equipment my theater uses. I simply want to know about the splicers that I have.BTW, I have had no problems with my M.2's.
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 02-12-2002, 12:22 AM:
The Ciro parts manual is here on the manuals page. The main importer of these splicers, J&R Film Company distributes them under the "Ciro" name as J&R Film/Ciro Equipment Company. The Ciro name does come from the "O" around the CIR.Only the later models of the splicer have the popup cutting arm.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-12-2002, 12:22 AM:
Oh no one is blaming you for the purchasing choice of your theater Ken. However, get yourself a Neumade splicer. Then and only then will you realize what a pile of crap it is that you have now. As it is right now, you just don't know any different. It's kind of like people who have never seen a 70mm print before. Then one day out of the blue they go to some other theater and see 70mm projected onto the screen. Suddenly they realize that the 35mm films they have been running for years that they *thought* looked great just don't cut it.
Posted by Paul Harnden (Member # 1034) on 02-12-2002, 12:31 AM:
I agree with Brad: GET A NEUMADE!!! As previously stated: they are so much better than CIR's, but then again most anything is. My reasons for the Neumade is that you don't have to worry about adjusting the gap in the film as you would on a CIR, and the tape goes on oh so smoooooth. Well that's my two cents, hope it helps you convert..
Posted by Christopher Duvall (Member # 284) on 02-12-2002, 01:45 AM:
(In Homer Simpson mode) MMmmmmmm, Neumade Splicer. I love Neumade splicers. However, I have one of the new Strong splicers and it is pretty damn good too. I absolutely hate those crappy Italian splicers.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-12-2002, 03:05 AM:
Christopher, did Strong fix that punching plate like I was complaining about in the review?
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-12-2002, 03:41 AM:
Chistopher said:
"I absolutely hate those crappy Italian splicers."What do you have against Italians? Italians makes better...
I have a CIR of course. I have to clean it periodically, and align the blades periodically but, after all, it makes its job.
Yes, it left few piece of tape on the splice sometimes but nothing terrible.
If the blades are dirty and in bad alignment, however, it will left piece of tape everywhere and it will not cut the tape correctly.
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Dan Spence (Member # 777) on 02-12-2002, 04:09 AM:
Ken,
I see you're using frame to frame splicing tape. I've just received some with my last supply order and will begin using it in a week or so. Any idea who makes it? And how well does it perform?
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 02-12-2002, 04:24 AM:
Personally I can't really split hairs between the Neumade and the CIR. I find the CIR easier to use, but that's what I started with so I'm used to. I must strongly disagree with comments made about the Strong splicer (no pun intended!). The best use I can find for those is for holding open doors. A place I installed bought those, everyone of them didn't cut the tape accurately to the edges of the film, which caused it to pick up dirt, and worse still caused the film to jump out of any flanged guide roller (Cat 701). They borrowed a Neumade from another theatre in the chain and the problem went away. The other theatre wanted the Neumade back so they bought a bunch of CIR splicers and have no further problems. It was going to be more hassle than it was worth to send the Strong splicers back to the US, so as doorstops they stay!
Posted by Christopher Duvall (Member # 284) on 02-12-2002, 04:33 AM:
Oops! My Bad! 
I didn't mean to mean to take at shot at Italians, Antonio. I have just had maintenance problems with those CIR splicers. Let the flames head my way for being a bad Film-Tech member.
Posted by Jonas Heijkenskjold (Member # 1085) on 02-12-2002, 05:59 AM:
Ken, in my opinion, youīre better off with the ones that donīt spring the cutter blade back up. Iīve come across several CIRīs with that spring, wich have, if you donīt pay attention, the cutter blade going down along with the handle when cutting the tape, (of course from getting beaten in the past), resulting in a new cut in the print.The base plate isnīt attached to a screw hole, its attached to the two middle screws going through the perforation plate.
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-12-2002, 07:40 AM:
Christopher,I know, I was kidding... I would like to have a neumade too...
I have instead a CIR and a "Cinemeccancia" as you in USA call our Italian coffee machines...
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-12-2002, 11:07 AM:
If they're in perfect condition CIR joiners can make good splices. But I find that the U-blades and perforating blocks tend to wear out very quickly and you're forever having to strip the base plate to get the sticky tape debris out from where the teeth have gone through the perforations in the film.In other words, they're expensive and time-consuming to maintain, and if you don't do it they start leaving ragged edges and failing to go through the perforations properly.
To be honest I prefer cement splices. It might take a little longer to do them, but if they're well made, they're less visible on the screen than tape joins. But of course you can't cement join polyester.
Posted by Wes Hughes (Member # 981) on 02-12-2002, 06:49 PM:
PETE: I have had problems too with a splice that is a tiny bit wider than the film jumping off of the cat 701's rollers. I just took a dremel hand tool and tapered out the inside edges of the rollers a little bit then sanded them smooth. No more problems. Some might say that this is a silly way to fix a problem that is only a problem due to something else (improperly shearing splicer blades), but I have seen this problem even with splicers that are cutting properly. The roller flanges on the 701's have a problem: they are perfectly the size of the film....then need to be a little wider and there is absolutely no harm or disadvantage in making them so.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-12-2002, 07:00 PM:
According to the CIR book you should not clean out the perfhole of the plate as they grab the punch out from the next splice
Also there is supposed to be 2 layers of tape across the block as well
As I have said almost every neg cutter that uses tape uses a CIR and up here they are the norm in theatres as well and they give stirling service.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-12-2002, 07:08 PM:
That's stupid to have to keep 2 layers of splicing tape permanently laid across the block. I also suspect they are the norm where you are because they are cheap, not because of quality. Either that or people up north aren't too picky. 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-12-2002, 07:14 PM:
I never say it is stupid if that provides reliable results and I usually don't question the designer why they did something
Also the CIR is substantially more money in canada than the neumade and definitly more than the asian white knock off piece of crap
Also I regretably have to deal with a neumade one for assembling large format splices with the saw tooth cutter and that is positvly the worse piece of engineered crap i have seen. I have yet to find two that have matching saw cuts
CIR rules
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 02-12-2002, 07:30 PM:
Gordon, I'm totally schlocked (Ooops! and shocked!) that you are using that POS saw-tooth thingie! Where's the Metric? It IS the best!
>>> Phil
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-12-2002, 07:34 PM:
I assemble all complete prints with the metric (that I calibrate myself)
But trailors use tape since they change them nowdays in large format almost as much as the multiplexes do 35mm
I wish CIR made the tape unit
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-12-2002, 09:28 PM:
Jonas, thanks for the tip on the base plate. I can't picture how it works. Do you have pics? Yes, I like the cutters that don't spring back up. That seems dumb.Leo, I clean my splicers once a month. I do not find it too expensive or time consuming, and it is well worth it.
Gord, what CIR book? Is there actually a manual for this thing? If so, how can I get one?
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-13-2002, 04:58 AM:
Well maybe CIR spares are cheaper in the US. Over here a perforating block costs around Ģ50 and a U-blade Ģ20. Both wear out pretty quickly in my experience.Gordon: I know about the two layers of tape on the base plate, but I had no idea that CIR recommend never cleaning out the perf holes in the base casting, and I must admit I don't like that prospect. Eventually they'd get packed with adhesive which would start to come off on the perforating teeth and contaminate the film. I've seen this happen on joiners which had never been cleaned in ages.
And as for the idea of using tape joiners of any sort to cut negatives (let alone CIR ones), yikes! Surely the edges of the tape would be clearly visible on the dupe (unless it was made by wet gate printing)?
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-13-2002, 07:10 AM:
Another issue with using tape splices on printing originals (e.g., negatives) is that the solvents used for ultrasonic cleaning will dissolve the adhesive in the tape, possibly transferring a sticky "goo" to adjacent laps:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/hse/solvent.shtml ------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 585-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 585-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-13-2002, 10:11 AM:
I gather the reasons for leaving the punchings in the plate is the next layer sticks to the one in there and not rise back up to the print
I just break the long trail hanging out the bottom off everyso often
Also for the record CIR was the first splicer that used non perforated tape And shinko electric made the first knockoffs, for neumade.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-13-2002, 04:01 PM:
Leo said: "Eventually they'd get packed with adhesive which would start to come off on the perforating teeth and contaminate the film. I've seen this happen on joiners which had never been cleaned in ages."Key phrase: "never been cleaned in ages." I clean mine at least once a month, and I don't ahve any such problems. I don't care what kind of splicer you have, it must be cleaned on a regular basis.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 02-13-2002, 04:34 PM:
I have tried to use CIR splicers and could never get them to line up correctly and give me a good clean butt joint!I do like the Neumade splicers. Very rugged machines that do need to be handled gently. Should the punch and die come out of alignment, you may have to send it back to Neumade for repairs. It is also very important that the film cutter be kept sharp and snug against the chassis. It is possible to have an AWSHIT and scrape a frame rather than cutting. Generally speaking, properly cared for and gently handled, this is an excellent machine.
I really do not have any practical experience with the Strong splicer, but have had a chance to briefly examine it. Compared to the Neumade, the thing is a tank. From my limited observation, this also looks like a very well belt piece of equipment.
I would definately take a Neumade or Strong over the CIR
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-14-2002, 05:42 AM:
Ken - I agree. Which is why I'm so surprised that the manufacturer actually tells you not to clean a vital part of it.I wouldn't go as far as Brad and Joe and condemn all things CIR to the dust cart, but it must surely be possible to design a tape joiner which produces good, clean splices with less ongoing effort.
If not, could someone please invent a type of film cement that works on polyester and which does not cost as much as an ultrasonic joiner? That way we'd never have to settle for second-best (i.e. tape joins) again.
Posted by Stan Gunn (Member # 554) on 02-14-2002, 11:23 PM:
Hi all
Here in oz ciro splicers cover about 99% of splicers used.
the early models, to get a good butt splice The cutter blade has to be adjusted, the later (m3) has an adjustment to move the left pins to butt the ends.The early units can have a bottom cover made with cardboard to stop the punchouts from sticking all over the place, I have used the ciro
for around 25 years and have found them to be reliable and easy to use, and with a minemum of care will give many thousands of perfect splices.
I have also used some of the copys 
commonsense and care will always produce a good splice no matter who made the splicer. 
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