Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Is digital sound worth it for me?

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 02-12-2002, 07:26 PM:

I have a 3 plex, all mono (no flaming please

)
I have a 196 seat auditorium, a 155 seater, and a 90 seater.
I want to upgrade the sound, but can't justify $25,000 per screen to do digital. And I have been told that digital is over kill for my small house's. What's the opinion of this group?
Any good used inexpensive ways to accomplish digital?
Any other suggestions appreciated.
Thank you!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-12-2002, 07:32 PM:

I would recomend good optical stereo that is upgradable to digital
That is important since in some markets that can make the difference in getting a print or not
Smart Devices manufactures mny good economical packaged systems or any good engineer can prepare a package for you
there is also a lot of good used equipment available as well but again make sure it doesn't limit you in the future

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-12-2002, 08:42 PM:

Maybe you would get more bang for the buck with Dolby SR optical. It can sound *very* good.

------------------
- dave
Look at this! His chin strap has been cut!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-12-2002, 08:44 PM:

There is a lot of good quality used sound equipment on the market. How about considering one screen with digital and the other two with Dolby SR? Whatever you do, make sure to get a good quality processor like the Dolby CP65 so you can effortlessly upgrade to digital later.

Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 02-12-2002, 08:48 PM:

I agree with Gordon go to a good optical stereo setup first. Perhaps a way to soften the finacial blow would be the following steps:
-Start with a Ultra-Stereo JSX-1000 series processor for each house.
(I don't know what you have now, If you are using a self contained system like the Kelmar AS-8800 system then you will need a power amp to power the existing Center speaker.)
-Next add surround speakers/amplifier. It's better if you don't skimp on amps and speakers. If you do it will hurt the overall quality of your sound later on. Especially if you want digital sound someday down the road. Buy good speakers and amps such as JBL speakers and QSC amps.
This will make your setup a center/surround (or front/back) setup.
-Next add a Left and Right speaker (with amps of course

-Then a Subwoofer (small theaters like yours will not need a big sub, but it will be necessary if you want digital later.
-Then digital sound which would more or less just "plug-in" (with the proper alignment of course) at this point.

-If you don't already have a stereo solar cell in each house than that is the first thing to upgrade (a stereo cell will work with an existing mono setup) for better optical freq. response a LED reverse scan reader would be nice (and a requirement at some point if the industrie's threat ever comes true)

Of course any equipment listed above is only a suggestion there are several manufacturers that make suitable equipment. But the above steps could be done over the course of several months or years with each step offering "improved" sound
Jonathan Bartow

Posted by Christopher Duvall (Member # 284) on 02-13-2002, 05:26 AM:

I have to go with Brad on the Dolby CP65 unit. It is affordable, sounds great when properly tweaked and it can be easily upgraded to digital at a later time frame.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-13-2002, 05:37 AM:

I agree with Brad on the CP-65, however there is actually a better processor available on the market and that is the Panastereo. Its is sold through Smart dealers. This processor blows the socks off any other unit out there, no holds barred! The CP-65 (very unfortunately) is no longer produced and a new Panastereo can be bought for a little more than a CLEAN used LATE model CP-65 can. Buying the Panastereo will get you the very latest in high quality analog performance and it has noise reduction that is every bit as good as the real stuff you'd get in a CP-65.

Once you have great analog capability you could hunt around for a used DA-20-CAT 700/701 system, or a used DTS processor. Either unit will interface easily to the Panastero and you'll have better performance and save $$ at the same time.

Be sure to upgrade to a RED LED reverse scanner when you install any new processor so you will be able to take advantage of everything that is recorded on an analog SR track, this is very important.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-13-2002, 06:43 AM:

Wait! No one has asked the original poster the _real_ questions; What types of films do you show? (If not first run, what is the condition? Do they come with DTS disks? Are the digital tracks playable? Are the films even _in_ digital?) What is your competition? (The answer will be different if his theatre is 200 miles away from every other theatre or if he's right next to a newly constructed gigaplex with full digital sound in all houses.)

In most cases, I'd vote for an upgrade to Dolby SR (or good non-Dolby equivalent; I've not heard the Panastereo stuff, but I'll trust that it's decent). There's nothing worse than a cheap digital installation. It's better to put the money into a good optical processor, amps, and loudspeakers and maintain that system well. Don't go cheap on installation or maintenance; find someone who really knows this stuff inside and out. Dolby SR can sound great and you will never have to worry about unplayable tracks.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 02-13-2002, 05:01 PM:

Thanks all, lots of good suggestions to think over. How much less expensive would a Panastereo processor be than a CP650?
And Scott, to answer you...40 miles from nearest Digital theater.
Owned by a chain to say the least that does NOT use (or understand) Brad's line "film done right". If you know what I mean.

Put it this way, they supposedly have digital (2 yr old complex) but you sure couldn't tell it by listening.
I'm first run 60-65% of the time, 2-3 weeks off the break 25% of the time. More than 3 weeks remainder.
Hadn't thought about digital tracks being trashed on older prints.
How big of a problem is DD tracks being ruined?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-13-2002, 07:14 PM:

DD tracks hold up better than SDDS tracks. The data spots on the film print are quite a bit larger. DTS is really good, provided you can get the film distributors to give you discs for any DTS supported release. Sometimes that is hit and miss, but there are a lot of small town DTS-equipped theaters in Oklahoma that do okay on getting the discs. Dolby Digital is good otherwise. There is a very tiny town in western Oklahoma called Cordele, and they have a 2nd run theater that was restored, THX certified and Dolby CP-500 equipped.

As Brad said earlier, there is a lot of used equipment on the market right now and some that is in the form of digital sound players. Some circuits will try to consolodate good equipment from closed theaters to ones deserving upgrades, but you could get lucky.

I might have missed it if someone else posted this point, but how good are your auditoriums at containing sound? That is going to be a very critical item on whether you can upgrade all 3 screens to digital versus just doing 1 and putting SR/A stereo in the others. Wall treatment is a must for containing the rumbling sub-bass from digital surround sound.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 02-13-2002, 09:09 PM:

No sound what so ever leaks now. But I'm aware digital is a differant animal. The walls were built staggered stud, double sheet rock. And sound board on the Steel studs under the sheet rock.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-13-2002, 09:21 PM:

If it is possible raise the level of sound in the theatre to around 100db (measured with a radio shack spl meter) and then measure it in the adjacent aud to find the ratio of bleed through
That makes a simple starting point

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-13-2002, 10:13 PM:

Brad, be careful what you type. The Dolby CP650 is an entirely different processor than the Dolby CP65! Expect to pay $3000ish for the CP65. From the sound of your situation, buying a brand new CP650 would not be a very smart decision. Also be forewarned that there are different variations of the CP65. Whatever you do make sure one you get has SR. (Even a CP65 with SR has two options there.) I've never had the pleasure of playing with a Panastereo, so I can't comment there, but I'm a bit leery of getting a non-Dolby processor until I can play with one and listen for myself. The CP65 is one of the finest units around for SR and handles digital with ease.

Also, the phrase "film done right" was actually coined by the Kodak man himself, John Pytlak. Most people around here live by those words.

On the prints you get now, what is the percentage of cans that arrive without dts discs? If it's more than one every few months or so, you probably don't want dts since you don't always open films on the break. SRD is on everything and SDDS is on most everything. (Pay no attention to Mark Gulbrandsen when he comes on in a bit and says not to even consider SDDS. )

Posted by Jacob Huber (Member # 1138) on 02-13-2002, 11:01 PM:

Hey Brad, what theatre do you operate, because I work for Showplace Cinemas, which is the theatre chain I think you are referring to. If so, I completely understand what you mean by not understanding "Film Done Right". I normally work at the North Side theatre (9 screen) and none of our films have a single scratch, or anything that would detract even the most lay patron's attention from the entertainment they paid for. The East location (18 screen) has horrid presentation quality. I saw "In the Bedroom" last nite, and it was pretty much trashed, there was even nacho cheese on the screen. We have 12 screens in the "old" section, and about 14 films, all of which are scratched. The other 6 screens have no scratches on them. I've taken this up with management, and they don't seem to care. It really angers me that they would scratch "Brotherhood of the Wolf" the day we got it.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 02-14-2002, 12:26 AM:

Opps, Thanks Brad. I had looked at Dolby's site and that extra 0 was inserted into my brain I guess.

And more often than not, the DTS Disk's are missing, even on first runs. I never seriously considered DTS for this very reason. My booker say's he's always fighting because DTS disks are missing from first runs. Biggest percentage are the films delivered by everyone's favorite courier, Technicolor.

Jacob, No offense, but I'd rather not say what theater I'm connected with. Actually, I was not refering to Showplace operations, but I know for a fact they qualify for my comments in spades and have for years. Are you a projectionist for them? If so, you have my deepest sympathy.
And nope, their management could care less. They never have. I can remember getting films circuited from the North side, that was completely un-playable. Several times, films came from them that had yards, and yards of sprocket holes ripped out. It was bad enough, I finally started refusing to take films circuited from them. If that's the print I had to take, forget it. I didn't want the film. Simply amazing.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 02-14-2002, 06:17 PM:

There is simply no good reason for first run theaters getting DTS prints to not get discs. On most of our agreements with studios, we have signed to make one disc per print.

Always remember, the discs belong to the studios, not to DTS. If a studio decides not to let us send a disc, that is their call (even though we'd love nothing more than send a disc to everyone that needs it). We will do all we can to get discs to all theaters that need them.

Karen at DTS

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 02-14-2002, 07:58 PM:

Karen,

Question for you....why are DTS discs not sent out w/prerelease promos and special screenings? I showed many a promo and was forced to run on a DTS house because of scheduling, etc, and discs were NEVER sent out w/proms...only on actual release date!

As for the answering the actual question topic of this thread....

1)How many screens do you have and what are your revenues?

2)Can you afford to have a tech come out every 6 months or so and eq the screen?

3) Where are you located...are you in the-left-hand-side-of-the-middle-of-nowhere....what would it take to get a tech out to you in case of emerengcy?

there are probably other questions to consider. What do you charge for tickets? Digital sound and its maintenance may increase your operating costs, and this may have to be passed along to your patrons...listen to and poll your patrons...are they willing to pay more?

There is no reason why you cannot get excellent sound with an analog LED set up...if you choose digital, my first choice is Dolby, because for one reason,it is the most universal of all the formats, then I would choose DTS...

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-15-2002, 07:18 AM:

Brad A, the sad truth is that the vast majority of the population cannot tell the difference between digital sound and analog sound, provided the analog is played on a well aligned, fine slit soundhead with a top quality analog processor. And most of the remainder aren't interested anyway - they're there just to enjoy the movie, not marvel at the technology (just ask any of my three daughters).

All the fine detail, like better channel separation, occasional stereo surround effects or louder "bangs" is something that WE pick up on, appreciate and are tuned into, because it is what WE do. The success of digital sound is due more to the advertising hype, the lack of well aligned, well maintained optical systems and the fact that digital installations also usually get new bigger and better amplifiers and speakers, than it is due to any real or perceived improvements that the digital technology itself may offer. It is afterall the same soundtrack, just treated a little differently.

I have lost count of the number of times I have witnessed patrons leaving a well equipped cinema in which movie has been playing in analog and when asked "what did you think of the digital sound" they say "it was really great"! This has become a standard joke for certain projectionists I know in Australia.

So as others have said, get your analog top notch before even thinking about digital. The small percentage of people who can tell the difference probably would not come to your cinema anyway, even if you did have digital, because if you are still running mono (gasp), then it is highly likely the rest of your presentation is a bit lacking as well.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-15-2002, 01:58 PM:

Karen,

I understand that the DTS disks belong to the studios. But since it is in your interest as a company to make sure that EVERY theatre having DTS systems gets disks to play with their prints, I'm surprised there isn't some kind of a deal whereby you would have some extra sets on hand to send out to theatres that need them at your discretion? I suppose there is some copyright-related reason why this can't be done, but it would seem to be a good idea.

Actually I feel like some people must be overstating the problem of not getting disks. 50%? I get prints from Technicolor just like everyone else, and we have less than 1% of prints arrive without disks. (ETS is the same, but since they're more regional, we could just be in a more dependable area.) On the very rare occasions I have been unable to get disks by calling TES, I almost always have been able to them by calling DTS direct.

I think that if a theatre company started getting billed, say $100 for every set of disks not returned, the problem would end overnight. TES scans the disks into the cans, so they must scan them back into the warehouse again. A billing system would be simple and would result in a nice little temporary windfall for the studios.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 02-15-2002, 07:43 PM:

As mentioned previously on other threads, the discs do not belong to DTS, they belong to the studios/release company. It's that simple. Most times, we can deliver discs over night.

As far as screenings or reviews, if discs are ready and the studio requests it, we can provide discs for the screenings.

Karen at DTS

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-15-2002, 09:52 PM:

Pitch this idea to the studios next time you're "chatting" with them Karen. I would gladly make available the dts discs via download free of charge to everyone during the theatrical engagement. There is almost always someone (even if it is an usher) who has a high speed internet line with a cdrom burner and that would solve a LOT of problems.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-16-2002, 03:43 AM:

Ray

I do not completely agree with you.
I agree with you that a good "analog" theater can sounds better than a cheap "digital" theater.
However I believe that a good "digital" theater sounds much better than a good "analog" theater.
It depends also to the film you are watching: a comedy will sounds the same in both systems, a Sci-Fi movie will not!!

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-16-2002, 05:26 AM:

Antonio

Sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear. I am not saying that digital does not sound better than optical. I was simply stating my observations and experience regarding the majority of the cinema-going audience.

My personal opinion as a "professional listener" is that DTS is by far the finest sounding, most accurate film sound system, and it does offer very low noise, discrete channel separation and extended dynamic range, not to mention relative freedom from playback system deficiencies, all of which optical film sound cannot offer. But these are things that you and I know.. the problem is the average cinema-goer either cannot tell the difference or doesn't care.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-16-2002, 08:21 AM:

Ray,

I mean that to a medium movie-goers a good digital theater will sounds better than a good analog theater...
Ok, there are a LOT of people that doesn't care, but I believe that most of them at least recognize that (good) digital theaters "sounds better". They don't know why, they don't know how, but I believe that they recognize the differences.
I agree with you that most of them don't find differences between Dolby and DTS.. That is why I show the DTS logo at the start of each DTS encoded movie... I believe that the difference is in that logo...

However I think that at the base of this conversation there are GOOD installation that, in my town, in my country, are very hard to find.
So usually in italy a good theater has a very good Digital system while a bad theater has a very bad analog system... In that situation customers WILL hear the differences...

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-16-2002, 04:38 PM:

Ok Antonio, I assume you run a top notch digital theatre so try this little test some time: Make sure your reverse scan analog system is correctly aligned and then run a film with a well mixed soundtrack in Dolby SR. Then stand at the door as your patrons are leaving and ask "what did you think of the digital sound?" I will bet you pounds to peanuts that almost all of them will either say that it was great (or some similar superlative), or that they didn't take all that much notice (the latter comment particularly from women, who seem to be generally less interested in such things). Of course there will be some folk who will say "that wasn't digital" but you will find only a few in an average crowd.

BTW I should correct one previous statement that I made. I said that in my opinion DTS is the best sounding film sound system, but I meant "commonly available" film sound system. IMHO there is nothing that even comes close to a Dolby SR encoded 6 track mag soundtrack.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-16-2002, 06:55 PM:

Ray said"BTW I should correct one previous statement that I made. I said that in my opinion DTS is the best sounding film sound system, but I meant "commonly available" film sound system. IMHO there is nothing that even comes close to a Dolby SR encoded 6 track mag soundtrack."
Well I think 35mm 6 track full coat is the best with or without Noise reduction
And actually one of the best I heard used DBX on the dubber but I cant remember the model of the DBX card that replaced the cat22's

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-16-2002, 10:30 PM:

Gordon wrote:
>Well I think 35mm 6 track full coat is the best

Given that nowadays it's coming from a digital source whether it actually sounds better I cannot say. It's certainly more **fun** to run just on principle somehow. Running the workprint of "Moulin Rouge" with the clever opening fading in on the theater proscenium and the guy vigorously "conducting" the 20th Century Fox Fanfare ("with CinemaScope extension") was especially good fun. I did a couple of 6-track unmarried screenings last Sunday night in fact.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-17-2002, 06:08 PM:

There are a couple factors on whether a 6-track Dolby SR mag audio track is better than a 5.1 digital track. If the source material was made in digital form (particularly in 20-bit or 24-bit) then the digital audio versions might actually sound better. They'll at least have as much headroom if not more than Dolby SR.

Dolby SR mag is better than regular 16-bit LPCM in every way. But when you jump up to something like 20-bit digital, particularly with the uncompressed 20/48 LPCM 5.1 audio on some DLP shows, there is the potential to surpass Dolby SR mag.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-17-2002, 06:25 PM:

Sure...but if we're talking about the regular digital formats then perhaps the SR Mag would be a better transfer of the 20 or 24 bit digital than would a highly compressed 5.1 digital track. Who knows.

Some field preview work is now being done with digital dubbers--still shaft encoder driven.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-17-2002, 10:13 PM:

Yah we are doing a gig right now that is doing its final mix down in a comercial theatre and the recorder is the AKAI digidubber hard disk running off biphase tach along wiht the 12 twin magnatechs that are the source of each of the stems

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-18-2002, 05:59 AM:

Ray,

I agree with you.

But now tell to the leaving customers to stay again because the next show will be played using a new Digital System.
Go to the booth and turn on your DTS player.

Then, after the show, stand at the door as your patrons are leaving and ask "what did you think of this new digital sound?" I will bet you pounds to peanuts that almost all of them will either say that it was so much better than the other one (or some similar superlative... (sorry for the cut&paste!! )

So, I mean that customers will never realize what kind of sound system will be used; but I'm sure that a big percentage of them can hear what is "good" and what is "bad".

What do you think?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 02-18-2002, 06:28 AM:

All I can say in reply Antonio is try it. If you are saying that your analog is bad and your digital is good then of course people will notice. But you seem to be missing my point and I don't know whether my elaborating on it any further is going to change that.

If you are running good digital sound and you are happy with the results AND your customers keep coming back, then that is all that matters my friend. You don't need me to justify the money you spent if that is what you are after.

Bobby and Steve, I think it is fair to say that 16-bit @ 44kHz digital was always considered the bare minimum for hi-fidelity sound. Once you start raising the resolution the comparisons with analog (SR or otherwise) soon become irrelevent. I feel that the sampling rate is a bigger issue than amplitude resolution (number of bits) because it affects the audio at all levels, not just primarily at the low level end of things. If I had to choose between increasing the sampling rate or the number of bits, I'd choose sampling rate every time.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 02-18-2002, 08:17 AM:

Keep in mind that although a good stereo optical setup using reverse scan LED will be just fine using digital sound can be a marketing tool that will bring in customers especially if you have competition nearby. The use of Dolby/Sony/or DTS digital logos in your print ads tells customers that you have what they want. In this business you do what you have to in order to get the bums in the seats.

Carl King

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-18-2002, 08:52 AM:

Antonio:
Try running your experiment the same way, except lie to them - run digital first and then SR but tell them the opposite. I think the same proportion will say the second was amazingly better.
I've heard many many customers come out of a "digital" house I was waiting to get into - to fix the dead digital system - raving about the amazing Dolby Digital and how awesome it sounded...
The digital snipes should have analog sound that says "this film should be in digital, but it isn't".
I'm not anti-digital, far from it. A decent digital house with acoustic treatment and a good B chain will sound excellent in SR. Few people will be able to appreciate the difference in a crowded cinema. There is still a big difference in many films though, and I appreciate it!

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-18-2002, 10:02 AM:

Dave M -- You are absolutely right on the money. Sound is VERY subjective and the differences in perception of it varies WILDLY between individuals, old and young, male and female. You can have people in the audience who think the sound is too loud (most usually women and older folks) while simultaneously there will be people who would like it a little louder (usually young males).

I have worked live concert shows were the talent insists they know what the house sounds like although the are on stage, behind the speaker stacks. They will tell me to "increase eq on the guitar at 3k by 6db." As I stand at the console and with my hands resting on the leather arm rest, I ask, "How's that?" "Better, but kick it up a bit more." "How's that?" "Great; maybe back it off just a tad -- maybe split the difference." "Ok, how's that now?" "Perfect." Mind you, I haven't touched anything. Gives you some idea of how subjective it all is.

The real power of digital is on the marquee and the perception and expectation the public has of the quality of the sound in a digital theatre. Sure, there are a few "golden ears" out there (and a lot more who think they have 'em), but it's the general population that has to be wooed and satisfied since there are the ones who make a difference in the total grosses column of the box office report, not the one or two golden ears who sit in the theatre and think they can hear the difference between 16bit or 20bit. You and I may think we can here the difference between SRD and DTS compression ratios and which is better (DTS, of course) but we aren't paying the bills -- the other 1000 patrons who are in the theatre who CAN'T tell the difference or even care, are the one who have to perceive a significant difference. To that end I say, buy an extra subbass enclosure and let them feel the explosions in the pit of their stomachs and THAT'S when you'll hear them oooing and aaahing. It's the ooohs and aaahs that you need to get out of them; something you will rarely get by switching to between digital systems or even between digital and analog tracks for that matter. Should your SRD reader crap out and switch to SR, how many out of 1000 people do you think will even notice the difference (assuming of course a well aligned analog A-chain)? I bet some of those golden ears might even miss it. Thing is, a top-notch sound system shouldn't be calling attention to itself anyway.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 02-19-2002, 04:46 AM:

Dave and Ray,

I agree with you but I think that we are writing two different thing.
You are saying that normal people will recognize as "digital" a good SR sound. Ok, I'm agree.
I'm saying that normal people will recognize what of two systems sounds better instead. No matter of how they call it!
Let your audience see the same movie in SR and then in DTS (a Good SR and a Good DTS of course). I'm sure that a big percentage of them will say that the second show was superior.
No matter if they'll think that the second show was in analog and the first in digital: the big fact is that they'll recongnize what sounded better.
This test with a "action" movie of course: I believe that with comedy movie there are almost no differences between Digital and Analog sound.
And let ignore that people that think that surround FX are coming from noisy people waiting out of the theater...

Bye
Antonio