Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: John Q. is skiing!! .

This is topic John Q. is skiing!! . in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Keith Peticolas (Member # 971) on 02-14-2002, 04:01 AM:

My brand new (previewing right-now)print of John Q is full of snow. White particles everywhere. I'm into the fouth reel at this moment and it hasn't stopped yet. Could this be Deluxe's tribute to the Olympics? Not quite bad enough to order a replacement, but it is driving me crazy looking at it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-14-2002, 05:44 AM:

Are you referring to white negative dirt on the projected image or white flaking powder accumulating in the projector? A print I saw a part of today was jam packed with negative dirt, so I'm assuming that's what you are talking about.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-14-2002, 08:59 AM:

FWIW, "John Q" was NOT printed on Kodak film!!!

Excessive dirt on the print film raw stock will show up as white specks on the processed prints.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 585-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 585-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-14-2002, 10:21 AM:

This being because dirt on the unexposed film surface will stop the printer's light source from striking the emulsion?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-14-2002, 10:39 AM:

Leo asked: "This being because dirt on the unexposed film surface will stop the printer's light source from striking the emulsion?"

Yes. Most of the release printing labs now use on-line Particle Transfer Roller (PTR) film cleaners (developed by Kodak) on the printers, which has greatly improved the cleanliness of release prints. But an excessive amount of dirt on the print raw stock can still leave some dirt to cause the white "shadow images". KODAK VISION Color Print Film and the new technologies Kodak uses to slit and perforate film have greatly improved the cleanliness of Kodak print film, much to the satisfaction of distributors and labs.
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/2383.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/september98/visionFilms.shtml

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-14-2002, 10:52 AM:

What you're describing sounds kind of like something I saw in 3 different movies in the last 6 or 8 months. The Others, Don't Say A Word, and one other I can't remember, all had 1 reel that looked like it was severely water-spotted or something. The effect on the screen image was like it was raining or snowing. The reel was like this from first frame to last. I complained to the theater and they seemed indifferent toward the issue. This wasn't regular dirt, either on the print or from the negative. The splotches were huge compared to flecks of dirt.

------------------
- dave
Look at this! His chin strap has been cut!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-14-2002, 11:11 AM:

White "shadow image" dirt can also occur during any handling stage with a negative. If the dirt becomes embedded in the negative, it may not be easily removed by the routine solvent and PTR cleaning methods used by the lab.

White "spotches" may be water marks, splashes, or some other problem that got on the negative and could not be removed by the lab.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-14-2002, 12:09 PM:

To me, water marks would be the best description. They were not opaque. It literally looked like it was raining on interior scenes.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-14-2002, 02:07 PM:

Out of interest, is there any limit to the number of release prints that can be contact printed off a single interneg? I assume that a negative is ultrasonically cleaned between passes - is there a limit to the number of times you can do this before the emulsion starts shedding or another issue comes into play which reduces the quality of release prints made from it?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-14-2002, 02:23 PM:

Leo asked: "is there any limit to the number of release prints that can be contact printed off a single interneg? I assume that a negative is ultrasonically cleaned between passes - is there a limit to the number of times you can do this before the emulsion starts shedding or another issue comes into play which reduces the quality of release prints made from it?"

Much depends upon how carefully the lab handles the duplicate negative, and the type of printer being used. Although the printing negative is solvent cleaned before loading the printer, most labs rely on Particle Transfer Roller (PTR) film cleaners to clean the film while it is being printed, so runs of many hundreds of prints are possible before the printing negative is pulled from production to be solvent cleaned.

Last year, Kodak introduced a new intermediate film for making master positives and duplicate negatives. KODAK VISION Color Intermediate Film 2242 features a more robust film structure and a conductive antistat that makes the printing negative more resistant to wear, and much cleaner during extended production runs:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/products/lab/5242.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/products/lab/tech5242.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/products/change/kn1dec2001.pdf

Today, making thousands of prints from a single 2242 duplicate negative would not be unheard of.

Posted by Keith Peticolas (Member # 971) on 02-14-2002, 02:44 PM:

It must be the white negative dirt, I'm not finding anything in my projector. I can not wait until digital film catches up. Really tired of the rotten quality, of late, from the labs. I'm also assuming nothing can be done about this if it was printed this way?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-14-2002, 03:29 PM:

Keith said: "Really tired of the rotten quality, of late, from the labs. I'm also assuming nothing can be done about this if it was printed this way?"

The lab usually does not specify the brand of print stock, and do the best they can with what they are told/contracted to use by the distributor. "Excessive" white dirt is a subjective judgement. Here are the Lucasfilm Theatre Alignment Program (TAP) print guidelines:
http://www.thx.com/professional_services/labgrad.pdf

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-18-2002, 03:45 PM:

Keith said "I'm also assuming nothing can be done about this if it was printed this way?"

My print was not like that. I'd try to get a replacement if I were you.