This is topic Subtitle framing adjusted independent of picture in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-19-2002, 02:09 PM:
Just as the topic says. Someone claimed to have seen a screening where subtitles were being cut off and the projectionist allegedly framed them higher without affecting the image itself. At first I thought no way--they don't know what they're talking about. Then again I suppose someone could be projecting picture sans titles and a 2nd film with subtitles against solid black. But who would bother when it would be cheaper to laser burn them right into the print? Then again, could it have been video projection they saw?
Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 02-19-2002, 02:27 PM:
Could it be that new DTS subtitling thing?
http://www.dtsonline.com/cinema/dts-css.html
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 02-19-2002, 04:06 PM:
You're right; ti was probably video projection. Unless they had adjustable bottom masking? Doubtful, I know....
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-19-2002, 06:55 PM:
Every other week, Regal here in Eugene shows a special subtitled version of a current movie on 1 or 2 days in the middle of the week. Last week it was "Lord Of The Rings". The newspaper always runs a news blurb about it to get the word out, and the Regal display ad explicitly says "Open Captioned". Someday (yah right) I plan to attend a showing just to see what kind of subtitling they use and how well attended the shows are. Would be interesting if it's the DTS thing.------------------
- dave
Look at this! His chin strap has been cut!
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-19-2002, 07:08 PM:
I once ran some Greek Films(ancient history m,id 70's) and in the booth (e7's peerless lamps) were also 2 standard symplex with selsyns on them
We ran the film on the E7s and a black reel of subtitles Black film clear lettering on the standards in sync
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 02-19-2002, 07:47 PM:
They are probably using the TRIPOD system of etching the titles onto the film. They are not using the DTS-CSS system for these shows in Eugene. We don't have any installations in Regal Theaters yet.Karen at DTS
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-19-2002, 07:51 PM:
Dave, Karen is correct. Regal often has Tripod Open Captioned films. The subtitles are right on the film. My theater currently has LOTR and last month we had Harry Potter.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-19-2002, 08:12 PM:
Well, in that case, I guess I *won't* be checking out one of those shows. 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-20-2002, 02:45 AM:
A small number of so-called 'Hearing Impaired Subtitled' (HIS) prints of mainstream titles are now doing the rounds in the UK, the result of an initiative started by the British Film Institute back in the early '90s. Towards the end of my time in the cinema industry I showed a few (usually one or two afternoon shows) and they tended to do quite well. On one occasion, a special school for the deaf and hard of hearing booked 50 seats to see Chicken Run, and other smaller group bookings were becoming quite frequent. The bottom line is that these screenings need to be well-marketed in order to work.However these were conventional, laser-titled release prints (like with most European films released in the UK, the subtitling was by LVT or Titra), not subtitling by any form of synchronised electronic projection.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-20-2002, 06:22 AM:
Here's a link to Tripod:
http://www.tripod.org And the MOPIX Project of WGBH Media Access:
http://ncam.wgbh.org/mopix/
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 585-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 585-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-20-2002, 12:03 PM:
I know of two home brewed subtitling methods that the theatre might be using, Both are manual, not the eligant DTS system. One, which we used once was a simple dual slide projector system with the subtitles shot on slide film. An operator simply watched the film and advanced each slide as needed. Making the slides is costly, but fairly simple to execute. The producer traveled with this film so the cost was probably amortized pretty quickly. I can't see that being cost-effective for a two or three day run. The other is the use of a computer to generate the text in a presentation program and that is then outputed to a video projector. Again, the operator must be the "synchronizer," advancing or retarding the subtitles as needed.
It would seem that getting a regular print AND a subtitled print for every booking would be an extremely expensive proposition, especially just for a few shows during the week. That sounds about as unlikey as the bottom mask moving. If it is not DTS, then I would bet it is a some jerry rigged system, maybe even with some sort of tach reader that could record where each title was placed once it was manually cued by a human. Then all additional runs could be automated.
I saw this type of thing once done with an audio track where a guy simply translated dialogue in Russian into a tape deck and then it was played back mixed over the soundtrack -- they used some sort of synchronizer that read a piece of white tape on the projector flywheel. As rube goldberg as this was, it worked reasonably well. Since I have no idea what was being said in Russian, I don't know how close the synch was, but the audiences seemed fairly content with it.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-20-2002, 11:41 PM:
Regal does not get subtitled prints for *every* release. Only a few major ones. But they are seperate prints with the subtitles as part of the print. No seperate subtitling system is used.I find it very anoying to build a print that will play 4 shows and break it down 2 days later. It's proablly not cost effective at all, but Regal probablly feels it is worth the expense to accomodate the audience who requests such films. Good for them.
Posted by Steven Gorsky (Member # 603) on 02-21-2002, 01:42 AM:
Tripod doesn't get many prints to have subtitles etched on, so the print moves from theatre to theatre.Only select films get subtitled, see the Tripod Website FAQ for details on how they decide.
Steven Gorsky
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-21-2002, 07:44 PM:
Although it's not connected to the origin of my original question quite coincidentally the Festival of Cinema for the Deaf is coming up shortly here in Chicago, featuring the DTS subtitling projection system. http://cinemaforthedeaf.org
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 02-22-2002, 01:35 PM:
Thanks Steve, yes, indeed we will be in Chicago for the festival presenting MONSTERS INC using the DTS-CSS System.Karen at DTS
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-22-2002, 08:52 PM:
Is there a variant of the DTS "subtitles for the deaf" system that actually projects the titles on the screen? I thought that the usual installation involved an LED display mounted on the _rear_ wall of the auditorium and rear-view mirrors which could be attached to the seats to allow viewers to see the subtitles...There's also a DTS "theatrical narration" track that is supplied for some prints that can be played through headphones....
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 02-22-2002, 11:19 PM:
Scott the DTS CSS system does exactly that: projects the subtitles ( in any language no less) onto the projected image.Saw a demo of all three systems (the LED screen/rear view mirror system, the, CSS and the narration for the blind) at ShoWest last year.
-Aaron
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 02-28-2002, 07:21 PM:
Hi Scott,I didn't see your posting til now.
Yes, captions may be projected onto the screen. You'd use the CSS projector for that and it would require captioning discs other than the "Rear Window" type.
Karen at DTS
Posted by Owen Shave (Member # 1156) on 02-28-2002, 07:31 PM:
Last Captioned print we had was 'Ocean's Eleven'. Its a shame that we only get the biggest movies in captioned format at the rate of one ever 2-3 months. The worst bit is that Ocean's Eleven only showed for one day (2-3 shows) with captions at our theatre. We normally find these screenings are fairly well attended. Especially if you forget to tell the general public that it is captioned... but thats another story
Sorry for being thick/lazy, but any bright soul want to enlighten me as to the difference between close and open captioning? I had assumed that open would be this system of subtitles projected seperately, but am confused now you mentioned that Regal were advertising 'open' when they were showing my idea of 'closed'.
hmm
Owen
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-28-2002, 10:03 PM:
Well, the usage I am familiar with is:OPEN = everyone can see it. In this context it would be sub-titles etched or printed on the film or shown with the new device on-screen. I suppose an electronic display board in the vicinity of the screen would also qualify.
CLOSED = not visible to everyone. Like those on TV that are visible only to those who switch them on. In the theatrical context, a display board on the back wall displaying mirror image text visible only to those who see them reflected in a clear viewing panel that they look through.