Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: "Spirit Of America" Trailer

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-26-2002, 04:51 PM:

This isn't an attached trailer. It's actually a 3-min short-subject montage. Sorry if this isn't the correct forum, but the other one seemed specifically about studio requests.

I am a big fan of pre-show programming, so I've just ordered a couple of the "Spirit of America" trailers from The National Association of Theatre Owners (NATO).

In case you don't already know what this is: "Spirit of America" is a new 3-min montage by Chuck Workman that was produced in reaction to 9/11. It features classic scenes from over 100 American motion pictures. In addition to NATO, Workman's new short received support from DGA, AMPAS, Kodak and Technicolor. More than 9,000 copies were originally distributed in December (2001).

Has anybody seen this 3-min wonder? Is it any good?

If you are interested in learning more about this trailer, or for ordering info, you can go to http://www.natoonline.org/spirit.htm and you'll find all of the information there.

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-26-2002, 04:55 PM:

This was discussed about a month ago on the FHF here. I didn't care for it. We just threw out our copies. I don't think too many other people were impressed with it either, as it was obviously a rush job to jump on that politically correct bandwagon. A big problem I have with the idea in general is that people come to the movies to get away from life's problems for a couple of hours. Running a trailer like that right before their entertainment is like shoving the events of September 11th right in their face to be thinking about during the show. I don't think we are doing our customers a service by reminding them of some of the very things they come to our theaters to take a short break from.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-26-2002, 05:51 PM:

I agree. I don't think it was all that well done; seemed like video (at least some of it definitely was). And the sound was awful--was it even SR? I put it on and went in and watched so couldn't see the CP display but it sounded like mono. I had no interested in running it a 2nd time. It's sitting around here somewhere as I removed a 1.85 version that someone had attached to a Scope print.

I have a couple of the old "Welcome to Sony" policies that I saved during a service call and if I want to see clips of old movies I'd rather run that.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-26-2002, 05:52 PM:

That was a concern I had, but I have not seen it so I was curious. Sorry to hear that. I won't throw them away, though.

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-26-2002, 05:56 PM:

And speaking of the "Welcome To Sony" trailer...

Cinema Concepts makes a cute policy trailer that uses movie clips to demonstrate the points. It's good for a couple of laughs, but I personally prefer a more "corporate feel" in policy trailers, so I get mine custom-made.

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by Richard C. Wolfe (Member # 431) on 02-26-2002, 11:51 PM:

I'm still running the "Spirit of America" trailer before every show right after the national anthem. Regardless of it's quality, my patrons love it. I have never had such a large positive response to any other preshow short other then "Precious Images". I've wondered how long NATO wanted it to be displayed... just over the holidays or what? I only have one copy, and the other week when I split the screen, one show had to do without. I couldn't believe how many people asked why I had stopped showing it. That was enough for me to make sure it stays for awhile. There were a few that were downright upset that I didn't have the national anthem on that show.

I'm curious... I noticed that several of you said that you just took them off or threw them away when you didn't like them. Did management tell you to do that, or did you do that on your own?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-27-2002, 12:00 AM:

Two separate comments here since I just realized my post could have been misread.

#1 I did not like it.

#2 We just threw out our prints. (After we ran them as directed, of course.)

To elaboarate, I never liked it, nor the idea of it. Also, the company only had us run them for a few weeks, at which time we were told to pull them off. Since they were not requested to be returned, we just threw them away. They had been sitting on the shelf collecting dirt for the last month.

While I thought Precious Images was excellent, IMHO this one was sloppy and poorly executed. I'm glad to hear at least your audiences liked it.

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 02-27-2002, 08:34 AM:

If anyone else is discarding this I wouldn't mind having a copy to keep.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-27-2002, 09:58 AM:

While participating in the ITEA Seminar Series in early January, I talked to Mary Ann Grasso, Executive Director of NATO, about the poor image quality of some of the clips. She verified that the tight schedule precluded Mr. Workman getting high-quality pre-print elements from the studios, so much is from video transfers or internegatives made from prints.

Here's a link:
http://www.natoonline.org/spirit.htm
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 585-477-5325 Cell: 585-781-4036 Fax: 585-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Steve Anderson (Member # 364) on 02-27-2002, 10:21 AM:

I noticed Richard, the you still run the National Anthem in your theater. Here in Nashville, Carmike tried that about 10 years ago and pulled it because it would cause a lot of trouble in the theaters. People either stood or just sat there and people would make remarks to each other as to "Stand up!" or "Sit Down!"

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-27-2002, 01:40 PM:

Hmmm, some yelling "stand up" and some yelling "sit down".... aint living in a tolerant society great?!

Anyone know who produced PRECIOUS IMAGES and Where can I get a print? And even though the quality of SPIRIT OF AMERICA might be poor, there probably is a good chance that in 20 years it will be hotly sought after by collectors, if nothing more than for its historical significance. After all, it shows how the industry reacted to the event. In five years you probably will see it selling on eBay for a couple of hundred.

I just ran the AFI 100 greatest films trailer for the first time -- I really liked it -- very well made and great to run if your feature is a title that's got a featured clip.

Frank

PS, Manny, I am glad I am not the only pre-show lunitic out there. In my theatre, when it says "Plus Selected Short Subjects," it's not kidding. Every year the Academy nominates short subjects. To bad nobody ever PLAYS them!! Cept us, of course.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-27-2002, 04:19 PM:

I got my copy of PRECIOUS IMAGES from the Directors' Guild of America. It cost me $200 to purchase a few years ago.

Note: Test your print as soon as you get it...mine had registration problems.

Please advise (maybe a new thread?) where you get your short subjects and are you buying or licensing?

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-27-2002, 04:24 PM:

Where can I get the AFI trailer?

Posted by Richard C. Wolfe (Member # 431) on 02-27-2002, 10:15 PM:

Steve, you are absolutely correct when you mention about the problems running the athem can create. I have run the anthem for over twenty five years, but normally only on national holidays. I ran it for every show during the Gulf War, and have run it for every show since Septempter 11th. During both of these periods it has been accepted profusely, however there have been periods when that wasn't the case.

The anthem was originally given to me by the local marine corp reserve unit along with the request to play it as a regular part of our show. This was, if I remember correctly in the late 1970s, maybe during the Iran hostage crisis. Later after we had run it for quite awhile I started getting complaints about it. I was stunned to say the least. People felt that they shouldn't have to stand, but were embarrassed if they were the only ones not to. I never had any problem with anyone being harassed for not standing, but it did make some people uncomfortable. I wonder if they complain at sports events too? I decided it was best to just go back to using it only on national holidays. Now I try to judge the public mood, and at times of national crisis I test the waters. The current situation has proved to be a time when it is very popular. I have recieved letters, e-mails, and almost daily comments in the theatre from people very pleased to have the athem before each show. And so far... not even one complaint this time. I wonder how long that will last.

Frank. I also like running shorts, but seldom can find those Academy Award Winners and Nominees, so I also would like to know where you get them from. Also that AFI 100 trailer? I have a fairly large collection of old black and white daters, including many "Plus Selected Short Subjects" some silent and some with sound. Do you have any and if so do you use them?

Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 02-27-2002, 10:37 PM:

I saw the SPIRIT OF AMERICA short at x-mas time before a showing of Kate and Leopold. While I have enjoyed Mr. Workman's work in the past and think PRECIOUS IMAGES is brilliant, I was utterly disappointed in SPIRIT OF AMERICA. The problem with it is not only the poor quality source material. The whole enterprise feels like a rushed job. The timing is lousy, the title cards are unnecessary, and the transfers are frequently quite bad.

Off the topic, is PRECIOUS IMAGES still available? Does anyone have contact info for where they purchased their copy?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-27-2002, 11:16 PM:

Ky...read my last post...call the DGA in Los Angeles and you can order it there.

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-03-2002, 06:47 AM:

Manny,

I got the AFI trailer from a collector among some older trailers he was selling, which is not much help, but I would imagine if you contacted the AFI, you might be able to purchase it from them or surely they would know how it was distributed.

I don't know if I mentioned it before, but AMPAS puts out a yearly list of the short subjects and in the past offered a reel for that year's nominated shorts on 16mm. They discontinued the 16mm reel but now offer it on video (ugh). Most of these quality shorts don't have distributors, but for the art house that wants to do some grunt work, you can get some good results by contacting the filmmakers directly. They usually have prints that they circulate and most times they are overjoyed that a real theater wants to play their work. The down side is, that only a handful of this material is available on 35mm; most is on 16mm. Which is why it is always nice to have an Eastman 25B in the booth.

One last point before I am off to Florida for 2 weeks, if you want some beautifully produced, high quality PSAs that are designed to make the viewer THINK as opposed to proselytizing at him/her, which is the down side of a lot of PSAs, the Earth Office, an environmental group, has produced a series of "pro-earth" spots that are outstanding. Audiences love them....they enhance the theatre's image and they give something back to the community. rather than like most everything else we do, that tries to extract money from their pockets. I might be able to post their contact information before I leave for vacation. If not, do a search on Earth One or Earth Office. If you doubt that a PSA can be made that doesn't scream "agenda," they have a tape of all their spots that are available in 35mm which they will send for free. You need to be a theatre, not a collector (they can't afford to be giving 35mm prints away for free to everyone).

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-03-2002, 08:07 AM:

Kodak has been a co-sponsor of those environmental trailers, donating the film for them:

http://www.oneearth.org/fs_index.htm

The titles so far have been:

Think More, Use Less

Health & Environment

Hidden City

Neighbors, Speak &
Water Planet

Mother

Power of One

Connections

Wonderful World

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 03-03-2002, 09:02 AM:

Hi guys and gals;

When I was a kid hanging out in the theatre that my late father managed I remember the Canadian national anthem being played at the end of the performance. For a while we even played God Save the Queen.

I haven't seen an anthem played in a cinema for 20 yrs. Hearing that some of you do play it in your houses I wonder why. Is a cinema a fitting venue for that, or for that matter is a baseball or hockey game?

Anyway , that's my rant.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-04-2002, 05:30 AM:

When Princess Diana was given a demonstration of just how awful French drivers are, the cinema where I was working at the time was told to play the national anthem before the start of the first show after the funeral (morning shows had been cancelled).

It proved impossible to obtain a (copyright cleared) recording of the UK national anthem on its own, and in the end we had to buy a CD box set of all the world's anthems just for that one 2-minute track.

Looking through the lyrics of some of the others was quite fun, though - especially the anthems of some of the African dictatorships, most of which were about praising the glorious <insert name here>...

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-04-2002, 10:17 PM:

HEY!!!

That's pretty neat stuff there. I've sent in a request for the Beta tape. I love running stuff like that.

Can anybody in Los Angeles tell me if the LA Times Calendar Section still runs those trailers?

Let's see...the series included...

Special Effects (the guy in the coal mine)
Foley Artist (the woman doing footsteps editing)
Aerial Stunt ("the physics are right here!")
Gloria Estefan in Concert
First Day (the new gaffer looking for a "spinner," which is just a coffee stirrer)

...any others?

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-05-2002, 03:47 PM:

Since it took me a while to find contact information, the ECO people can be reached at +1 310 656 0577. They were happy to send me a variety pack of their 35mm PSAs (available in both flat and scope). They seemed to be looking for more theatres to run them.

--jhawk

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-05-2002, 04:08 PM:

John:

Thanks for that phone number. The website made no mention of 35mm film (just videotape formats).

I'm going to call them to place an order tomorrow.

What exactly did you get in that variety pack. I've got 20 screens, so I'd like to have an idea of what to ask for in order to cover them all.

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-05-2002, 04:12 PM:

I'm not really sure; it hasn't shown up yet. We'll see.

--jhawk

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-12-2002, 12:25 PM:

Manny Knowles said: "The website made no mention of 35mm film (just videotape formats)."

As I said, Kodak donated the film for producing and distributing the environmental trailers, so 35mm prints definitely were made. I'm sure the ECO group would welcome theatres wanting to play 35mm prints. The videos provide a way of previewing the content, but don't do justice to the high production values in the film prints.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-15-2002, 10:01 AM:

The variety pack came with a cover letter that asserts it contains:
. A Perfect Balance
. Connections
. Mother
. Why Are We Here
though the package also contains:
. The Hidden City
. He
it came in a mixture of flat and scope, at my request.

--jhawk

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 03-15-2002, 01:53 PM:

I do not like pre-show programming. I go to a movie to see the movie. A few (3-4) trailers are acceptable. I do not want to see TV commercials or PSAs. I certainly do not want to see the national anthem. I have heard of theaters doing this, but I have never seen it. If I did, I would complain.

We received 3 Spirit of America trailers and were told to play them in some of our smaller houses. No time frame was given. I played them for about 2 weeks. Eventually we lost the movies they were on, and I never bothered to place them anywhere else. I think I have one left. Anyone who wants it, it's yours. Let me just check to make sure we don't have to play it anymore. BTW, it's Flat.

------------------
This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-15-2002, 02:01 PM:

I really think it depends. I agree that commercials or advertising are very troublesome. But a Short Subject is an excellent thing to have. We used to run them a lot more regularly, and are running them again this term.

A well-done PSA can hold some of the same value as a good short. Since I haven't actually seen these yet, I can't comment from personal experience in this case, but if the audience is amused or inspired to think in interesting ways, that's probably good enough.

--jhawk

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-16-2002, 06:51 AM:

Ah, impatient youth! Ken, you are too young to remember when preshow material was PART of the theatre experience. There were cartoons, short subjects, trailers, even newsreel....none of which were ads and all of which provided welcomed entertainment "extras." Granted, times have changed, and audiences are more impatient nowadays (although their tollerance of such tacky, low-brow devices such as slide ads or commercials never ceases to amaze me), but we found that once we educated them to the classic presentation values -- we always run a cartoon, trailers, and short subjects when we can find them -- the audiences love it, appreciate it and are one of the reasons they often site for coming back to our theatre.

Well produced PSAs are also very much applauded and, as I said, produce a very positive image for the theatre. The PSAs from One Earth are exceptional works with spectacular production values and IMHO, are as much Academy Award material as any of the other shorts that win those awards. WHY WE ARE HERE and MOTHER are outstanding, compelling pieces of filmmaking. We are happy to put them on the screen, and the audiences reaction is always postive -- many times they get applause.

I may have told this story before, but once a patron complained that we wasted her time with all the "junk" we showed before the feature. That junk as she called it took hard work to obtain and book and was part of our whole presentation. I pointed out to her that all of our ads and press material make it a point of saying that we have programmed preshow music, and then we show cartoons and award-winning shorts before our feature films. We even give the starting time of the feature in addition to the starting time of the entire show. Then I told the box office people to memorize her face and never ever let her in our theatre again. My co-director told me we couldn't legally do that. How unfortunate.

Frank -- tanned and back from Florida.

Posted by Dennis Atkinson (Member # 345) on 03-16-2002, 07:46 AM:

Waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy back in the early 70's, commercials that played in theaters were made for theaters, not the same junk you got to see on the tube for free. I didn't mind seeing them because they were totally different. I don't know how anyone can watch the video on film commercials. Deluxe kinescopes for all!

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 03-16-2002, 10:34 AM:

Frank,

Although, yes, I am too young to remember what you are talking about, I think you are being a little extreme. I would tend to agree with that woman, but that's just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, right? If someone complained about my preshow programming (not that I'm the one who makes the programming choices, it's all corporate), I certainly wouldn't ban that person from my theater.

------------------
This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-16-2002, 11:57 AM:

datkin said: "I don't know how anyone can watch the video on film commercials. Deluxe kinescopes for all!"

Some of those TV commercials printed on 35mm look absolutely awful. Dreadfully bad. What are they thinking?? I guess all they care about is the number of "impressions" the ad makes, favorable or not.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-16-2002, 01:03 PM:

Is that a literal question, Dave? ("What are they thinking?)

The answer is clear. They perceive a market in showing their advertising in theatres, and have found a cost-effective way to do it; and they probably choose the cheapest. Why pay thousands of dollars a minute for last film recording when you can get a 16mm transfer with a kinescope (O($60)/minute), and then blow it up to 35mm ($0.30/foot)?

While discriminating individuals will notice, a) The average moviegoer just isnt' discriminating. Sad, but true. b) Just because the quality looks low doesn't mean that the advertising won't be effective. This very thread summons in my head that stupid Sony VAIO theme from the 35mm ad with the people jumping into the sky....

I plattered up the ECO shorts and watched them all last night. I think they're nice and tasteful, but unfortunately they don't have quite the "hook" of a good short (no real exciting drama or comic humor, etc.). I'd grade them a 6 on a 1-10 scale. But they're certainly good enough to show and we'll throw them in when we have some free spots.

--jhawk

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-16-2002, 02:47 PM:

Just to throw in one extra point on those poor quality blowups...some theaters start the show, the projectionist checks framing and focus and then walks away, never to return. If the first thing to hit the screen is one of those low resolution video blowups, that can easily damage the entire presentation's focus (and framing too, since many times those are printed out of frame). I know many theaters use timers and leave the booth lighting on next to the projector for precisely this reason. Sometime during the trailers, the projectionist sees the light on and projector running (signifying "check focus"). He goes over and checks things during an actual preview and then turns off the light. Now of course the projectionist should return randomly during the movie to keep checking on things, but at least if he forgets or is too busy building 8 new movies for the complex the feature should play well. It's an interesting approach.

Frank, I agree with you that we are bombarding our customers with tasteless garbage before our presentations these days, but adding newsreels, cartoons, short subjects and whatever else we can add is just too much. I agree with the woman. While things like that were commonplace a long, long time ago and would still be a pleasant addition to a reportory type of theater, in today's times I agree that they are inappropriate for a commercial movie theater.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-17-2002, 11:05 AM:

I have done a number of video commercials specifically for 35mm conversion. There are a couple of basic rules to follow (no swish pans) but I find that the conversion house plays a major role.

These days I send all of my video-to-film jobs to Cinema Concepts in Atlanta. They're primarily an animation house (policy trailers) so they're really set up to work in very high resolutions. I've been very happy with the results. They've even re-done some of the older promos we used to run and so there's some basis for comparison.

I can safely say that the techs and the lab will help or hurt.

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-17-2002, 01:04 PM:

In general, the audio and video quality ("production values") of many TV commercials seems to be quite high. Why would an advertiser not want to apply the same high standard of production values to their commercials showing in theaters, which is a venue where a poor-quality production will stand out in comparison to the rest of the presentation (trailers and the feature). Of course we all know the answer: Low cost, and a very tightly-targeted audience. Bah.

The best-quality TV commercial shown in theaters I can recall recently is the Mountain Dew one with the alien spaceship being piloted by the Dew-drinkers ("I told you not to let them drive"). That one looked and sounded pretty good. Many other commercials really look and sound awful though...

I agree with Brad's comments about commercial theaters and pre-show programming. At a first-run theater, I want (even enjoy) a few trailers and hopefully a sound snipe (though around here they rarely do sound snipes any more), then move on into the feature.

Memo to self: In the future, when asking a rhetorical question in a public forum, be sure to provide your own response to said question.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-17-2002, 04:01 PM:

Brad, I agree -- our persentation style would not be practical in a commercial setting. It is an easy way for the arthouse to make a mark in our nitch market -- all those little extras create a style that is distinctive and sets us apart from the multiplexes.

In fact, we are GLAD they put crappy looking slides on the screen and play that track with the "DJ" babbling incessantly in attempt at humor. We are glad their concessionares are rude or simply have that glazed eye look, like deer caught in headlights. We are glad they put low res video ads before their main feature -- sets a tone as to the kind of attention to detail the theatre ascribes to. We are glad they let patrons walk in to see a naked screen staring back at them --it allows us to be impressive with our Grand Curtain.

And Ken L., just for the record, of course we didn't ban her from the theatre (we certainly couldn't afford THAT lawsuit); naturally it was said it tongue-in-cheek, but I agree with you -- for those who are not particularlly taken with our style of presentation, we are not about to alienate them as customers and we do give three times for all our shows: the time the doors open and the Preshow music program starts (they get to drop suggestions in a box in the lobby as to what music they would like to hear programmed on our 6 Channel Total Surround MegaSound [tm] system) -- the start-time of what we call the "Cartoon and Attraction Reel" AND finally, the start-time of the actual feature. Patrons are free to come in whenever they wish.

And I have a little confession to make.... One of the reasons I love running cartoons and stuff before the feature, aside from the fact that my audience loves it, is also for showmanship as well -- with a cartoon, I can go from 1.37 to either flat wide screen or scope. It
is VERY dramatic and there isn't a show where you don't hear the audience wooing and ahhing when it changes. Why bother with ANY wide screen process at all if the audience isn't aware that they are indeed seeing a film in wide screen? We have a few multiplexes in Brooklyn where there is only ONE screen size -- everything is run in 2:1 -- both Scope and flat. The only way you know which is which is by....well, you know. What's the stupidity behind that?!

Sometimes exhibitors deserve that chapter 11 thing.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-17-2002, 04:38 PM:

Actually I think it would be a good idea to bring back shorts and cartoons to comercial theatre experience. It is no more involved than adding all the comercials and garbage at the beginning of the presentation anyway
Until Cineplex took over Canadian Odeon theatres they still had cartoons and shorts before most programs in there multiplexes

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-17-2002, 04:57 PM:

Well, in fairness, it's more involved if you have non-35mm shorts, it can sure be a pain. This is the case with 16mm shorts, like the one we showed last night, where the film broke as the projector was starting up...

--jhawk

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-18-2002, 01:10 AM:

The problem with doing the cartoon/attraction reel in a multiplex/platter operation is that the level of automation in the average multiplex is not universal. Most booths will not have the necessary lens and aperture changing equipment that it would require. My guess is that booking for mulitplexes is most efficient when programs are the same from house to house, screen to screen. Corporate head offices would probably look pretty unfavorably on having to adjust packaging programs specifically for which screens have automation and which don't.

Does anyone use lens and aperture changers on their projectors? How fast can these thing actually change from one to the other? And can you set it up for different flat ARs? Obviously lens turrets are easy, but what about the plates? Can you have a scope plates plus a variety of spherical cropped plates?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-18-2002, 02:19 AM:

John: In my experience, most 16mm film breaks on start-up were caused either by a loop being lost due to the feed-out sprocket pulling the film before the gate claw had advanced it, or by a 6,000 foot take up spool pulling too hard and either breaking the film altogether or destroying the loop below the gate.

My trick with fragile 16mm was twofold: firstly to join 20-30 feet of polyester spacing onto the front. That way the projector is totally up to speed and the take-up spool is pulling smoothly (a big advantage if you're running heavy 6,000 foot spools) before the brittle stuff starts going into the mech. If you lose a loop there should be enough spacing left to safely abort the start. Secondly, if you are using a projector which advances the film using a claw in the gate (as distinct from one with an intermittent mechanism, e.g. an FP-18), manually advance the mechanism so that the claw is engaging a perforation before starting the motor. This prevents a loop being lost.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-18-2002, 10:40 AM:

Leo, I was thinking almost the same thing. This particular projector doesn't get a lot of use around here (16mm is relatively rare for us), and so of course, our projectionists are less experienced with it (it's an EIKI 6120).

This particular short broke on the countdown, which is hardly a terrible failure, all things considered. I was thinking about replacing the countdown or adding more leader, and still might do that. Still, my first preference would be to see what can be done to reduce the jerk on initial startup, I suspect something needs tweaking...

--jhawk

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-18-2002, 02:06 PM:

IMHO, if you're using a 6,000 foot spool for 16mm, the initial jerk is going to be pretty severe whatever you do. Projectors which have a separate motor for the take-up (e.g. a Fumeo HL3000) are slightly kinder, but I really don't think there's very much in it. I guess you could try manually restraining the spool as the motor comes up to full speed in order to lessen the impact, but I found that sticking miles of polyester on the front (which can withstand the jerk) was much less hassle.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-18-2002, 02:17 PM:

This is probably obvious, but I'll mention it anyway: as with 35mm, be sure to use floating-hub reels for anything larger than 2000'. If you have a pile of fixed-hub 6000' reels, use them for feed only and get some floating-hub ones for takeup use. Using fixed-hub 6000' reels for takeup will almost guarantee film damage as the reel comes up to speed...

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-18-2002, 02:25 PM:

Boy, lots of answers for a question unasked.

This was with a small plastic reel (500'?), though there are definitely issues with the takeup tension jig on the Eiki. I'll have to play around with it more.

When I did a post-mortem this afternoon, though, it was discovered that one of the rollers on the path just before the takeup had fallen off the projector onto the floor. Fixing this doubtless helps (sigh).

--jhawk

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-18-2002, 02:52 PM:

In the USA, the majority of national-market television commercials are still shot on 35mm film. However, the effects, titling and editing are often done in the digital realm, with just enough resolution to satisfy normal NTSC or PAL television. It's when the advertising agency decides to play the same commercials in theatres that sometimes a low-resolution video master is transferred back to film. If the effects, titling and editing were done using film, or 2K or better resolution digital, these film-originated commercials could rival the image quality of feature films.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-19-2002, 12:05 AM:

Our Eastman 25B has been customized with extended feed and takeup arms with the takeup arm motor replaced with one that has more torque and a slightly faster speed than the original. It is outfitted with a torque/speed control. When the projector is started, the speed control knob is set at a much slower turn speed and less torque "pull". This prevents the otherwise inevitable snap when the reel catches up to the speed of the film playing out. I find I still have to put a finger on the reel edge to make sure there is no snap even at the lower torque setting. As the reel gets full, the projectionist needs to increase the torque just enough so as to keep the film taut as it fills the reel.

What every projector that uses anything larger than 2000ft reels needs is a simple spring loaded guide roller same as used on platters, that will momentarily take up the slack as the reel acelerates from stop to full takeup speed. An even more sophistocated design could be borrowed from those Eprad drive-in monster reel transports, where the spring loaded roller would be attached by an articulated arm to an autotransformer which would act as a feedback servo that would automatically adjust the takeup motor speed as the film pulled on it. This would never allow the film to get any tighter than necessary for a firm rewind.

BTW, I recently saw one of those Eprad Mega-Reel transports and couldn't believe how gentle it was on the film. When the projector started up, my knee-jerk reaction was to "hold back" the takeup reel with my hand because it looked for sure like it would have to rip the film apart as it accelerated to speed. Much to my surprise, the regulator arm simply adjusted the speed and the reel slowly and gently rotated to speed while the film wound with nary a tug. It was really a pleasure to watch. No reason why 6000ft takeups (including 16mm) couldn't be outfitted with the same design principle, given how simple it is -- nothing more than a roller and spring.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-19-2002, 02:22 AM:

Absolutely. And such a system would do a lot to remove my prejudice about towers, too.

Scott: Yes, it was taking it as read that John was not trying to use solid hubs for 6,000 foot 16mm takeup.

John: 400 or 800ft plastic (e.g. Tuscan) spools would be so light that a take-up motor designed to pull a fully-loaded 6,000 would be pretty violent. Even so, I'd have thought that polyester spacing on the front should get you through the start-up.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-19-2002, 08:51 AM:

Leo,
Indeed, normally it does on this projector. I think the missing roller had a lot to do with it. And also, the springloaded tension jig appears to be out of adjustment.

--jhawk

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-22-2002, 06:18 PM:

While I was working in a remote theatre location, I came across two copies of the "Spirit of America" trailer. I guess I'll screen it when I get back to home base.

------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by Steven Gorsky (Member # 603) on 04-05-2002, 02:32 AM:

If anyone is looking for an alternative for the National Anthem, Filmack is now offering an America the Beautiful trailer at $62.80 each in both flat and scope. You can find out more at the Filmack website.

Steven Gorsky

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 07-04-2012, 06:53 PM:

It has been 3743 days since the last post.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-04-2012, 06:53 PM:

Bump. (ooh...look...a decade-old thread!)

Did anyone else dig this one up for July 4? I showed it before a regular feature in a commercial cinema. I have also used the national anthem, but this one avoids the awkward stand up/sit down problem that the anthem creates.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 07-08-2012, 11:29 AM:

Ijntweresting you bumped this up, Scott.

I ran it last July 4th on a couple of screens where I worked.

Unfortunately, not this year. In May, our owner was evicted due to falling behind on the rent. A new company took over, and I was out the door along with anyone else who believed in film done right.

Understand the new tennants converted to digital.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-17-2012, 09:20 AM:

John, you needed to go out the door WITH that short! [thumbsup]

You can be sure it's been trashed once they converted.