Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Interface for 16mm DTS...

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 02-28-2002, 09:41 PM:

I was going to post this inquiry under the "do you prefer DTS or Dolby ?" thread, but the topic was drifting more than a tired driver on a highway...

Someone recently approached me about the feasibility of showing a 16mm DTS print. I've heard it could be done, but have not found any facts on the interface. Is there a specific model of interface and is it readily available? Does the interface connect to the DTS playback unit (in my case, it would be a DTS-6) in place of the customary 35mm reader, and can it be connected without having to tweak the playback unit in any way? Can it work through a 600? line output, if the projector is so equipped? Any of you have recent experience with such a critter?

TIA

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-28-2002, 09:52 PM:

It is actually quite easy. Both of the times I have done 16mm-DTS I came right off the pre-amp output right into the TC input on the DTS (either 6 or 6D). As I recall, I took some SMPTE P16-SL test film (400H at 100% modulation) and set it for 300 mV or so. The DTS input has an AGC so one merely must be in the range. I have done it with a Norelco FP-16 and an Elmo LX-2200.

Now DTS does have an adapter board to go between the preamp and the TC input if desired. From what I understand, it will clean up the signal for a more reliable operation.

Steve

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 02-28-2002, 11:24 PM:

Which timecode input did you use steve? I assume you used the reader cable. if this was the case, which pins are TC input and Ground?

Josh

Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 02-28-2002, 11:39 PM:

Steve,

Thank you for your quick reply! I checked the DTS-6 manual in the Manuals section, and it looks like I would have to wire the 600-ohm output between pins 1 (TC signal) and 6 (TC ground), assuming I am going directly into the playback unit and using a balanced run with the shield tied to the shell of the DB-9 connector. Does this look correct?

(Josh, this may be the answer to your question to Steve)

I will probably be using an Eiki EX-4000P xenon for this exercise.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 03-01-2002, 06:46 AM:

Sound very complicated. It is really that much hassle.

Not that i know anything about that stuff.

Is their a difference in the timecode?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-01-2002, 11:09 AM:

Jon, you got it correct. It is quite easy and no glitches were encountered on either of my set ups (these were before the adapter board was available).

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 03-01-2002, 01:44 PM:

I have to admit I'm curious, guys. What's out there with DTS in 16mm?

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 03-01-2002, 02:09 PM:

Well, I guess I'll have to build that DTS reader out of that old Westrex Penthouse

Josh

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-01-2002, 02:16 PM:

Josh, you defiler of Westrex penthouses you!!!! JJ

This is interesting, I've never heard of 16mm DTS before.

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 03-01-2002, 05:23 PM:

The way we play back DTS 16mm films is by using a DTS Model E376 Timecode Preamplifier unit. No reader is used and the timecode track is placed where the mono track used to reside.

The timecode is read by the 16mm projector's optics and is fed to the E376 that feeds the timecode information to a DTS-6D digital playback unit. Then, the digital 5.1 soundtrack (on CD-ROM discs) is fed to the auditorium's sound system or cinema processor (if one exists).

We work very closely with the film makers as most times they are new to the industry and need a little helping hand delivering their mix to us in a form we can use (like DA88). Then, it's business as usual for making discs and we are there to help during screenings/presentations.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-02-2002, 11:21 AM:

Are any of the studios considering using 16mm with DTS for the non-theatrical market? Or even more intriguing, is there any thought afoot for using it for theatrical releases where screen sizes are small enought that 16mm can look acceptable (like half the older multiplexes)? It would be a much easier way of saving print costs and shipping costs rather than going to the MUCH more expensive DLP route. Imagin, the entire film on one reel...no buildup or breakdown, very cheap UPS shipping.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-02-2002, 12:16 PM:

Over here we are finding that 16mm has all but died a death. I am informed that there are now no labs in the UK which can process it. Fumeo are no longer making 16mm projectors, and I am also informed that after 'Harry Potter' there will be no 16mm prints of new features struck.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-02-2002, 01:52 PM:

Pete Naples said: "I am informed that there are now no labs in the UK which can process it."

NOT TRUE!

16mm film is still very popular in Europe and the UK, especially Super-16 origination.

Check out the labs that process it:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/industry/dyn_labs.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-03-2002, 06:18 AM:

And even though the non-theatrical market has shunk to a fraction of the size it used to be, the 16mm houses like Swank Motion Pictures still book 16mm prints to all those non-theatrical venues like universities and museums who have held out for quality presentation but can't afford 35mm but who still have enough understanding of quality not to go to video projection -- albeit an ever shrinking number -- but enough that the non-theatrical market still gets 16mm prints for all the latest releases. True, it's a nitch market, but once the dust settled from all non-theatrical implosion of the 80s, the ones who have hung on now seem quite healthy. If Swank could start offering DTS prints, that might be a shot in the arm for that market.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-03-2002, 06:41 AM:

Thanks John, I am misinformed!!

As to 16mm still being popular, I beg to differ on that. Certainly in exhibition. All of my art house type theatres here are 16mm equipped. I was asking around lately, and none of them have shown any for nearly two years now. Even at the Edinburgh Film Festival I haven't seen 16mm or Super 16 run for about the last three years if my memory serves me right.

I know Neil from Edinburgh Uni Film Soc, who posts on here sometimes, was running 16mm in one of their venues, I don't know if they still are. They were running material that is not available on 35mm mainly. There were a couple of 16mm only cinemas over on the west coast, but those shut up shop a couple of years back too, due to lack of available programme.

Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 03-03-2002, 02:23 PM:

Frank Angel said:

quote:
If Swank could start offering DTS prints, that might be a shot in the arm for that market.

Possibly. We ran a 16mm print of Tora! Tora! Tora! (on December 7, 2001, no less; surprisingly enough, nobody else had booked Swank's only print of the film) It was 'scope and looked quite impressive apart from the scratches that had accumulated over the past decade or two. However, the sound by no means matched the image quality (and to think that it once ran in 4-track mag with Sensurround!).

Making the 16mm vs. DVD video projection choice basically comes down to a question of image quality vs. sound quality. DTS removes DVD's sound advantage.

On the other hand, Karen Hultgren said:

quote:
No reader is used and the timecode track is placed where the mono track used to reside.

Like CDS, this introduces the double inventory headache.

------------------
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 03-03-2002, 04:05 PM:

Tora! Tora! Tora! was a 70mm blow-up.

Midway was Sensurround.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-03-2002, 04:26 PM:

I'd love to see 16mm DTS prints available of current titles for the nontheatrical market. Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen on a large scale, since the venues which run 16mm are not likely to be able to afford DTS (otherwise they'd be running 35mm anyway).

At the very least, I'd like to see more availability of 16mm scope prints, which are hard to come by for recent titles. Recently, I ran both the old and new versions of "Planet of the Apes," both in 16mm. We could get the original version in scope (pinkish print, but it still looked great), but the latest version was only available flat (letterboxed, losing half the resolution)...

With respect to 16mm availability in the UK: what are BBC documentaries currently being shot on? At least through the late 1990s, they were all either 16mm or super-16. Have they switched to 35mm or video since then? In the US, 16mm or super-16 is a very popular production format for medium-budget TV shows, low-budget features, animation, etc. The newer VISION camera stocks look very nice when blown up to 35mm or projected in 16mm with adequate illumination.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-04-2002, 02:24 AM:

Whilst I agree with Pete that hardly any 16mm reduction prints of theatrical feature films are now being made, the format is still supported by a number of labs serving the TV and archive sectors.

We (the Northern Region Film and Television Archive) use Hendersons in Norwood, South London, for making preservation dupes and viewing copies on black-and-white 16mm (they are a specialist b/w lab and don't do any colour work). They offer the full range of services: ultrasonic cleaning, contact and optical printing (step and continuous, including wetgate), sound negative recording and enlargement/reduction from 35mm. We use Soho Images and Bucks Labs for colour 16mm, and they offer an equivalent range of services.

That having been said, the days of film societies and multipurpose auditoria (e.g. arts centres) using a portable Eiki or whatever to show the odd film every week or two are definitely gone. The multiplex revolution sent demand for 35mm release printing through the roof and as the cost of 35mm prints decreased relative to 16mm, these places either equipped themselves for 35 or went under. If you look at a typical lab rate card you'll find that (assuming your source is a 35mm combined internegative) the cost of a 16mm projection print is around double that of a 35.

I guess from an environmental standpoint and ease of transportation, the idea of reviving 16mm with DTS is an attractive one. However, if I understand Karen's description of the existing system correctly, the prints are not backwards compatible, i.e. the timecode replaces the analogue track as with CDS. If the prints did retain an analogue track too, I suppose you could start a phased comeback of 16mm using the existing (though small) equipment base as a core market, but with non-compatible prints you'd be starting from scratch and I can't see that happening.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-04-2002, 02:44 PM:

Leo, we've seen 16mm die a death in the realm of the independant and student productions too, up here at any rate. I guess the comparitively low cost of video has done that, not just UK either, as 16mm exhibition at the E.I.F.F. has become something of a novelty.

Posted by Pete Lawrence (Member # 130) on 03-04-2002, 09:14 PM:

We booked LORD OF THE RINGS for a Sci-Fi convention at a local college (non-theatrical) for April 19 and can only get it on 16mm or 35mm film. We don't have 35mm capability yet, but I'm working on that for next year. I would have thought it would have been on video by then, but thankfully it won't. 16mm is alive, but definitely not as healthy as it used to be.