This is topic Manny's Strip Show in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003175
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-04-2002, 11:29 PM:
Here's what happens when you don't take care of your intermittents!The irony is that I had just cleaned this unit a week ago. I noticed that it was running a bit loud and I told the operator, "Sounds like the intermittent's about to give out on you."
Of course...the shows went on...
A week later, the star broke, the intermittent froze and gears got stripped.
There's also a pic of some "platter bulge"... the film may have wound a bit too tight and the tension got released during play. The danger with this is that the payout head may develop stop-and-go syndrome because the print is no longer perfectly circular. If that happens, the movie could get tossed.
You can also see what this booth looks like after some cleaning. Note the HUGE collection of outbound trailers. We are indeed returning all of them to the depot.
Here's the link to the page o' pic's...
http://homepage.mac.com/mannyknowles/PhotoAlbum1.html
------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.
~Manny.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-04-2002, 11:37 PM:
Manny,
Had U been using LaVezzi oil this probably wouldn't have happened. Expensive lesson.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-04-2002, 11:52 PM:
I have edited this to reflect that I have placed an order for the magic oil.BTW...I'm just returning to these cinemas after a long absence...I'm "putting out fires" all over the place right now (so to speak).
This is the part of our broadcast, wherein Manny gets defensive, saying:
"It's not my fault! I just got here and I'm here to help!"
------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.
~Manny.
Posted by Don Sneed (Member # 955) on 03-05-2002, 05:32 AM:
Hey Manny.....not to sound crazy or out of touch, but I seen the letters BTW more than once in film-tech, what does BTW means ?? Thanks, maybe I can have a chance to use those letters in a topic!!!
Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 03-05-2002, 08:54 AM:
BTW, Don, BTW means By The Way. It took me a while to figure some of those acronyms out.
Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 03-05-2002, 02:55 PM:
i'm still wondering what IMHO means...
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-05-2002, 03:00 PM:
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-05-2002, 03:12 PM:
OTT = Off The Topic!
JK (or J/K or *JK) = Just Kidding! 
So I've put in an order for LaVezzi Projector Oil and I just *know* that they're gonna come back and ask me who makes that.
Who manufactures that oil, and does anybody have the contact info?
Also...what would be the recommended changeout schedule for intermittents. I try to do everything on a preventive schedule. The oldest of these projectors has been in service for a little over three years and I'm sure these are all the same intermittents they started with.
I don't want to have them all failing one right after the other. I've just put a new one in one machine -- interestingly enough, this is one of the newer machines (less than three years) -- and now another one is running a bit loud (more on that one later, see next paragraph) and I'd rather change them all now if they're just gonna die together anyway. I know that can be an expensive proposition, but there are even more expensive ways of dealing with this problem (i.e. "just let em fail on their own") which is precisely what I'm trying to avoid here.
Now...about that loud movement...I changed out the oil and it's still just as loud. And the new oil went dirty immediately. Fresh oil went in nice and pale; moments later (after a short test for shutter timing) the same oil came out dark and "muddy" looking.
Is it true that we should also change out the drive gear for the intermittent at the same time? I was always told that the intermittent and its correspoding drive gear (on the vertical shaft) should be changed together, even if gear damage has not occured.
BTW...I should point out that these are Westar ATAP/K heads - a retrofitted version of the basic Century heads.
AT = Auto Turret, AP = Auto Plates and I think that the "K" stands for Kelmar (plate and turret retrofits).
------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.
~Manny.
Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 03-05-2002, 05:36 PM:
The LaVezzie corporation makes LaVezzi Projector oil. They also make the best projector parts in the industry. Ed Wolk company in Chicago carries their parts www.edwolk.com .
Unless you are having trouble with your intermittents leave them right where they are. There are a lot of intermittents out there that have been running perfectly for a lot longer than three years, Yours are just babies!
I suggest that you change the oil about every six months for your preventative maintenence. (though with the LaVezzi oil you could go for a year between changes. Heck, Christie claims that their intermittents never need oil 
)
Your intermittent that has the "muddy" oil, flush the thing out with a lot of oil (i.e. change it many times, turning the projector on for a few minutes with each fresh batch of oil. It sounds to me like it just got really dirty inside either from cheap oil that broke down, or a missing cap on the filler hole, etc. If you can't get it all cleaned out or if even after it is clean it is still loud (after adjusting the collar, etc.) send it in to get repaired.
Unless the intermittent drive gear is worn/broken there is no need to change the gear with the intermittent. That would just be an extra, unneeded expense.
Jonathan Bartow
Posted by Richard C. Wolfe (Member # 431) on 03-07-2002, 11:30 PM:
I have to agree with Jon 100%. If there is nothing wrong with your intermittents don't touch them. I find it hard to believe that they are failing at three years of age. They should have another 25 years left in them. I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the newer equipment, and maybe they don't last as long as the old stuff, but at three years they should hardly be broken in yet. My Simplex E-7s have been running perfectly for the past 57 years, and while I have changed several gears over the years, never have I had to touch the intermittents. Of the eighteen theatres that I owned during my lifetime I think I only ever replaced one intermittent. I have had Simplex, Century and Brenkert heads and they all had excellent intermittent movements requiring no maintainence other then oiling, and cleaning of the external parts.If you want information about maintaining your intermittents, check the manual or call the factory direct and they will give you that information.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-08-2002, 08:09 AM:
Actually Al LaVezzi once told me that they rate the life of an intermittent at 5 years of use running 8 hours a day. Thats based on platter operation. Of course use of LaVezzi oil can greatly extend that life.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-08-2002, 11:15 AM:
Five Years!! Wow!! That sounds like a money making figure to me. I have numerous Westrex and Century mechs in service all over Scotland, Most of the Centuries are no more than three years old, but there's a pair in Edinburgh that are well over twenty, and a Westar in the same complex that is circa 1955. We've changed on Century intermittent sprocket (although we probably could have got away with turning it) and a rebuilt intermittent was fitted to that Westar a couple of years abck. Checking the theatres maintenance logs (and they keep EVERYTHING), that Westar has had a few sprockets and bearings fitted over the years, but certainly never an intermittent. These particualr machines are used 363 days a year, at least four shows a day and on long play. The intermittent was replaced due to a lightly jumpy picture but moreso because of the noise.Most of the other Westars around here are not so meticulously cared for, and have required intermittents in a shorter time, but still more like 20 years, not 5!
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-08-2002, 11:43 AM:
I had no idea they could go that long. The LaVezzi oil is ordered and shipped already. Thanks for the tip!
"Manny listens...Manny obeys."
I should point out that these machines have managed to get VERY dirty. I'm cleaning out each one and maybe I'll get some before-and-after pics.
I'm now using Film Guard on the edges to reduce shedding (this company doesn't have a Kelmar web media cleaner...yet).
The cap on the oil-fill is indeed missing on that one that's running loud. I'm waiting for a loaner and I'll be sending that one in for rebuilding - second one this week. In the meantime, I'm changing its oil daily in hopes that the oil will start clearing up.
Thanks again for the tips; they are much appreciated.
------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.
~Manny.
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-08-2002, 12:14 PM:
One of the things that will determine an intermittent units life is the amount of work it has to do to move the film. To get the longest life out of them you must bang in to operators to run with only as much gate tension as required. I normally back the gate right off until the picture begins to jump, then slowly tighten up until the jump dissapears. That was instilled, no, drummed into me by a very old and very wise chief operator, we had Kalee 21's, which were no spring chickens ten years ago, and are still perfectly serviceable now. Unfortunately operators these days, either don't care, or don't know any better, and I find they are usually running with way too much gate tension, which results in the quicker death of gate runners, intermittent sprockets, and intermittent units. Incidentally, the oil used in those Centuries and Westars in Edinburgh that have lived so long isn't LaVezzi, well not AFAIK, it's whatever Westrex used to supply with the machine, comes in a gallon container, which is big enough to last many many years.I might get hold of some of this LaVezzi oil to try out though, can't hurt!
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-08-2002, 11:10 PM:
I don't think Lavezzi oil would of made any difference
I have many Century's and there clones running on good old SAE20 non detergent for well over 15 years with absolutly no grief from them
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-09-2002, 12:14 AM:
Gordon: you don't think LaVezzi oil would help...whose situation? Mine?------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.
~Manny.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-09-2002, 06:37 PM:
Lavezzi is a high quality oil but it is not recomended by the manufacturer
Your Westars are probably not the UK machine but a hybrid that was assembled in Miami and was probably mainly Monee or Cinecitta or the mexican century
As such i would hesitate to blame just the lubrication frequency
I usually recomend the specified lubricants only
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-09-2002, 07:55 PM:
Gordon: You're right about them being rebuilt in Miami...Is there any way to tell exactly what they were prior to rebuilding? This is just a point of curiosity.The manual that came with the newer projectors is a Xeroxed copy of the Monee manual, with a few alterations (a new front page that says "Westar" instead of "Monee," for instance). Otherwise, the text, pager numbers and font all match the original Monee manual. But, that, alone, doesn't mean they were once Monee machines, right? Maybe they all shared the same, basic manual?
How come I get the feeling that the Monee machines are inferior? Did I read that somewhere on this site?
------------------
And, hey! Let's be careful out there.
~Manny.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-09-2002, 09:09 PM:
Gord, All of the manufacturers specified lubricants are old fashioned. Most projector manuals were written before modern lubes existed. I guess if U want to be old fashioned thats your choice, however more modern lubricants have far more benefits that the old fashioned stuff could ever provide.
Although Monee or Cinecitta may not reccommend synthetic lube(LaVezzi for instance) I doubt that they even know of it. These machines are manufactured in 2nd and 3rd world countries after all. Being about the same as a Century however they will run just fine with the LaVezzi stuff. After all it is the correct viscosity for that type of machine.
After you know and understand why they are better you wouldn't want to use anything else! From the Selco pages....."EXCLUSIVE GUIDE TO SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS
Most people have heard that synthetics are better than petroleum based lubricants but don't know why. Well, here's why. Because synthetic oil is composed of molecules that are uniform in weight and shape, its heat of vaporization is much higher (more than 300°C compared to conventional oil which evaporates at temperatures as low as 175°C). This means you'll burn less oil and have less sludge, which is the result of evaporated oil. Added slipperiness is another positive attribute of synthetics. The uniform length of synthetic oil polymers allows them to more easily slide over one another. Mineral-based oil has a film strength of about 500 psi, synthetics are closer to 3000 psi. This means that the oil is less likely to be pushed out from between two metal surfaces where a lot of pressure exists, like bearings. The advantages of synthetics are so great that they out weigh the initially high cost. When you're looking for that little extra edge, synthetics can provide it.
Synthetics are the logical lubricant choice if:
1. Equipment failure or excessive downtime is attributed to ineffective lubrication products or practices
2. Performance demands are beyond the capabilities of petroleum products
3. High or low temperatures (-60 to 260°C) are encountered.
Manmade synthetics reduce wear because they provide a better lubricant film in the load zone or nonconforming surface of bearings, gearboxes, compressors, vacuum and diaphragm pumps, rotary shaft seals, valves, and hydraulic systems. Reduced wear leads to reduced maintenance, parts replacement, and energy costs. Synthetics also provide long life because of their enhanced thermal and oxidative stability, which reduces the formation of sludge, corrosion, and deposits.
However, other important variables should be considered when selecting and applying these products. These factors include pour and flash points, demulsibility, lubricity, rust and corrosion protection, thermal and oxidation stability, antiwear properties, compatibility with seals and paints, and compliance with testing and standard requirements."
MArk @ GTS
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-09-2002, 09:28 PM:
Manny,
Westar, a trademark belonging to International Cinema Equipment is basically a Monee two piece ( picture head / soundhead ) projector in which a Kelmar auto turret has been added. Steven also made some models with different gear pitch for longer life but was not too popular ( too confusing...besides when you buy a Century or equal you expect the normal shortcomings for that design ). The machines as they arrive from India require some work on the intermittent ( oil seals, gaskets and sometimes bearings ) due to the fact in their country the majority of the cinemas are still two projector, reel to reel operation and what they ship is O.K. for their normal situation.
Cinecita projectors has been out of production for many years and has recently restarted production due to increased cinema construction ( small lots, less than 50 sets a year ) and there is another company by the name of Poly who also builds Century style....besides Mexico, Peru, England, India, Century type mechanisms where also built in Pakistan.
We also import Monee ( rarely ) which we modify with features different from ICECO when neccessary....and of course Strong.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com