This is topic Alternate DTS Tracks? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 03-17-2002, 09:53 PM:
Those on the drive-in list have heard this before: We know that separate prints and DTS tracks are produced for foreign language dubs. But what about doing this to "tone down" language in some films? This would allow for some R movies (language) to be toned down to PG perhaps which some exhibitors may elect to run. Alot of movies are fairly harmless, except for the foul language. I suspect that the studios and directors would never allow this as it would interfere with their "artistic vision" and "realism" they think we need. But many remember when movies were about stories and not "realistic" profanity. I say give the people what they want, Frank points out that they already dub for TV, if it's good enough for the home, why not at the theatre?
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-17-2002, 10:04 PM:
That sounds like a good idea to a point but there still would be issues of violene and nudity in some cases. A movie like Erin Brokovich would benafit from this since it's rating was derived from just too much language. There have been cases in the past were a film was edited down and re-released as a pg from an R. Saturday Night Fever comes to mind. An I enjoyed that version just as much as the R version.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-17-2002, 10:32 PM:
I've seen some films that had alternate R rated and PG/G rated takes concerning dialog. "Back to the Future" is one such film that had uncut and TV friendly takes. It costs more money to produce, but often is better than looped over dialog that attempts to cover up profanity. So really if a movie production is going to go to the effort in producing clean and uncut versions of a film, I think they need to do it in a complete fashion than just looping over someone's dirty words. I mean, people can still read lips and the looping rarely ever does a decent match for what is happening on the screen or even in context to the sound character of the other dialog in the scene.One might also ask, "why bother?" When you get down to it, the dirty words, violence and nudity are really superficial things. The overall context of the subject matter is really what may be disturbing. I think some of the junk shown on daytime TV is every bit as harmful for youngsters to view as any porn film or ultra-violent action movie. Sure, there may be no profanity or nudity, but the kids get the idea anyway and form their own conclusions about it when not properly supervised.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-17-2002, 10:35 PM:
Although I will agree that foul language gets a little excessive in today's films, these types of "corrections" should be done when the movie is in production, not after it hits the market. It would stick out like a sore thumb, and I don't think too many people would accept it.Two examples that come to mind: Can you visualize an Eddie Murphy film that has a politically correct bogus sound track? Can you imagine what the film Full Metal Jacket would be like with a politically correct bogus sound track?
IMHO, BAH!
Yes, I will admit, I can have a potty mouth just like anyone else. There was one movie I ran that the sound track was so filthy it shouldn't even found its way into the theater in the first place. I forgot the title, but it was not worth remembering anyway. It was a very crappy movie. It was in and out the door in one week, probably because of the sound track.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-17-2002, 10:39 PM:
Somehow, I never saw "Animal House" during its original theatrical run. The first time I saw it was on network TV. I thought "What a nicely done inoffensive little comedy" (or something like that). Much later of course I saw the original theatrical version, and was mildly surprised at the level of profanity it contains. This was like 2 different movies. And both of them were equally funny to me.I could see some merit to your idea, though it seems highly unlikely that a filmmaker would allow his/her "vision" to be compromised by producing 2 different versions for first-run theatrical release. Doing different dialog for TV or airlines is a different issue.
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-17-2002, 11:16 PM:
I remember seeing a film way back in the 80's called Q & A, this film could have been enjoyable had it not been for the thousands of profane words every few seconds. I walked out of it. The only film to this day that I have walked out of because of profanity. It was worse than Scarface in my opinion.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-17-2002, 11:58 PM:
I would agree that the use of profanity by and large has gotten out of hand in today's movies and pay-cable TV shows. Award winning programs like "Six Feet Under" make a lot of the of potty mouth stuff acceptable.Now I'm not calling for a ban on profanity. But too much of it just turns into a crutch to support bad writing. Colorful metaphors should be used sparingly so they will have appropriate dramatic impact. If you beat an audience over the head with hundreds of dirty interjections then the F-words and all just lose impact and the audience grows numb to the story you are telling. It can actually have a very harmful impact against the quality of the story.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-18-2002, 11:18 AM:
Bobby, I certainly agree with you when you said it is getting out of hand. Darryl, the movie I was in reference to could have been Q&A, but to be fair about it, I cannot say for sure. However, the movie's soundtrack was so filthy I turned the booth monitor off because I didn't want to hear it.
You were lucky - you could walk out. I couldn't.....I had to run the damn thing.
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 03-18-2002, 01:14 PM:
DTS's job is to reproduce what we are given. We are not responsible for content.Karen at DTS
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-18-2002, 01:26 PM:
Sometimes a PG-13 movie comes along that contains a single out-of-place use of the f-word, and you just know they stuck it in to ensure they would get a PG-13 instead of a PG. I have no problem with profanity in movies as long as it's in context and serves the story, but sometimes they are just manipulating the ratings system and it's very obvious.A little off-topic, but Re Scarface: I remember I was sitting behind a mother who brought her young son to it, maybe 8 or 9 years old. I couldn't believe it. You know how intense that movie is. I mean it's hard enough for some adults to sit through it. Well the kid started to squirm and fidget and it almost seemed like he was having a physical reaction to the intensity of the movie. It looked like he was going to throw up. The mom finally takes him out to the lobby for about 30 secs, then they come right back in and sit down. The kid was crying at that point. But good 'ol mom wasn't going to miss the movie, no matter if her kid was traumatized or not.
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 03-18-2002, 01:46 PM:
Not to disagree on "Six Feet Under", arguably one of the great shows on TV today, but its use of foul language really is not that much. I actually did a count on one of last seasons episodes that seemed like it was using the foul language a bit too much, and only found nine instances. A good example of using the words for dramatic impact, making us feel or think like its too much.Now I have seen many shows where it was nothing but swearing. YOu really get tired of those shows. They take a mental toll on you. You start to realize that absolutely no intelligence goes into writing like that. I cant even name a show because I have much more intelligence than that to bother putting it into my long term memory.
As for really bad edits for television, my personal favorites are Total Recall and RoboCop. Both paul verhoven films, both rated X origianally, and both edited down for theatrical release to barely qualify for the R rating. When they went to TV, the editing was so choppy and the overdubbing so horrible, that entire scenes just dissapeared, making the movie unintelligible.
If you are going to make a movie that you want TV audiences to eventually see, you have to take that into account BEFORE you make the film. If anything, those horrible cuts may have caused more damage to Paul Verhovens carreer than Showgirls or Starship TRoopers ever could.
Dave
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 03-18-2002, 01:50 PM:
When DTS came out it was speculated that it could be used for dubbed versions and descriptive tracks for visually impaired, but I've never seen them actually used for that.
As for content, the version that plays in theaters is called the THEATRICAL VERSION. We've already got Blockbuster ruining the concept of uncut movies on video, there's no need to bring that into the theaters as well (unless the producers decide to do it themselves, like with the PG reissue of "Saturday Night Fever").
"What's the big f---in' deal, it doesn't hurt anybody! F---, f---ity f--- f--- f---!" 
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 03-18-2002, 04:35 PM:
DTS narrration and descriptive tracks are being used at selected locations in the USA and Canada. There are also a few in Europe.These applications are with the DTS-CSS system and require special discs. The special discs are usable only with the DTS-CSS system.
You can find general information on the DTS-CSS system by looking on our web site at www.dtsonlne.com and click on 'cinema'.
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-18-2002, 06:42 PM:
Put me down as solidly opposed. There ought to be one version of a movie. Save this kind of tomfoolery for DVD's where you can have various edits and soundtracks. Keep it out of theatres where REAL movies are shown and seen.
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 03-18-2002, 07:32 PM:
New Line has a number of "Family Edited" versions of their PG-13 rated movies on VHS. While I see the reasoning behind it, it still seems wrong. All I gotta say again is fu-(slap!)
Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 03-18-2002, 11:03 PM:
A part of me doesn't want to touch this particular topic. After all, Utah is now notorious for having theatres which censor movies. (It only happened at one theatre which was showing Titanic, but from the press they received you'd think it was state-wide in 1997-98). Then there was more than one video editor "cleaning up" copies of Titanic on VHS and I thought... Come on! Either the movie is good enough to watch or it isn't. There are other movies (including a wonderful A&E documentary) about the Titanic and you don't need to watch this one... especially if you already think there's something wrong with it. Let it go! It's only a movie (...with a really silly love story between all the neato digital effects).The best thing you can do if you're opposed to the offensive material in a movie is to not watch it, not rent the video, not watch it when it's been edited for network TV, not recommend it to your friends and stop telling yourself that "it was really good except for that one part."
It's no secret that movie attendance has gone down in the last few years and that a large percentage of the available movies haven't been very good. Maybe Hollywood will get the message. Maybe not. But by this time next year we'll be asking ourselves which movies made the most money during the previous 18 months and we'e going to see Star Wars, Monsters Inc, two Harry Potters and two Lord of the Rings movies. Combined, the grosses will be in the billions yet you'll be able to count the profanities without taking off your socks. There will be plenty of complaints about violence but nobody's going to be whining that "these movies weren't artistic enough because there wasn't enough profanity." And... Hollywood will still be planning another Scary Movie sequel.
Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 03-19-2002, 01:13 AM:
The funniest TV edit has to be Pulp Fiction. It's nothing like the original ... almost looks like a foreign dub job.
Posted by Josh Kirkhart (Member # 1046) on 03-19-2002, 02:38 AM:
I'm sorry but screw this. Yes, DTS offers cool solutions as far as alternate language tracks. But to happily overdub language so we can get more kids in theatres I say again, screw this! Anyone in the biz has been assaulted with kiddy fare like no other in the last year. I'm sorry, I like the foul language, I like the lack of children in my auditoriums(I must confess I tech most things so I don't have to put up with anyone who I don't wanna). Our busiest days are around kids movies and adventure movies, fine. I love checking I.D.'s at the door(my hobbie at work) and kicking kids out, or pointing them to other movies. I love informing the parents of the rude language and sex they were about to let thier children see, although sad to say they don't care. The only time most parents stand up and say no to thier kids is when we inform them they must see the film with thier child.
I'm ranting and falling away from subject. Use DTS discs to give us great dubs, if those exist, so more audiences will take in that artsy fanfare. Don't get me wrong I love cheesy adventure flicks, I just enjoy them not so PC.
Since I'm rambling. Mirimax blows the big one. Horrible dubs. Making cuts of films to make them generic enough for america. Bad title changes-Kung Fu Soccer- anyone. Terrible campains. Give these movies to Sony, they atleast have a idea of what to do.
Ok, I'll stop but damn I'm pissed, I even edited myself in this post.
Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 03-19-2002, 06:51 AM:
OK, getting back to the topic title:
Alternate DTS tracks??? If one had different sets of DTS discs for the same movie (i.e. one in English rated-R, one in English rated-PG and the same in French and Spanish) what would prevent the regular analog rated-R sound track from playing if the DTS unit failed for some reason during a show (no offense Karen, just making a point)? The distributors would have to have dual inventories. (Dual inventories to accomidate any theater wanting the PG version with SR-D or SDDS too.)
Having a theater dictate what they will and will not show (i.e. requesting the PG version over the R-version) sounds like an invitation for First Ammendment lawsuits.
Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 03-19-2002, 07:06 AM:
OK, dumb idea duly noted, BUT it is still my opinion that there is no good reason to market a film that is R-rated as opposed to PG just because of language. It ain't a moral thing either, that's just stupid marketing.
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 03-19-2002, 12:01 PM:
I liked the idea, then after reading everyone's post... I think the two track versions could survive in the proper setting. If indoor theatres offered the Saturday morning kiddie matinee's that they did long ago, it would work. The other venue that it could work... the drive-in. I don't know how many Film-Techer's frequent drive-ins, but if you did - you would see that the MAJORITY of the clientel is young families with young children. Sure, you may say... if you don't like what being said in a particular film... don't see it, and don't bring your children with their "innocent ears" to the theatre. One of the sole reasons people DO still go to the drive-ins is the fact that you CAN bring your kids to the movies and not have to worry about disturbing the people sitting next to you.
Why could you not have two DTS tracks playing simultaneously, but broadcasting on different frequencies? Adults tune their radios to channel "X" and families tune to channel "Y".
If you could get the remaining 400+ drive-ins in the country to offer an alternative, it might catch on. I would willing to think that a drive-in that caters to the family-types would even pay a small premium to offer such a service. I know I would.
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-19-2002, 03:38 PM:
Greg Anderson claimed:
>It's no secret that movie attendance has gone down in the
>last few years It has? Not according to the MPAA which states that not only did boxoffice $$ set a record but to dispute that this was entirely due to rising ticket prices, says that more tickets were sold last year than any year since 1959.
From the MPAA web site:
---
To bolster his observations, Valenti announced that "2001 was the greatest box office year in film history" with total receipts of $8.41 billion. He noted that "a record twenty films released in 2001 soared to more than $100 million box office, with a record five films reaching the rarefied air of $200 million box office."
In addition to the success of the box office receipts, Valenti reported that admissions in 2001 came to 1.5 billion, a 5% increase from the previous year and a 30% increase from since the beginning of the decade. "It was," said Valenti, "the largest ticket buying total since 1959!"
---
I presume you can cite a source for your data which you claim refutes this.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-19-2002, 03:51 PM:
Actually attendance in Canada according to the stats can report is up
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 03-19-2002, 03:54 PM:
You guys bave some really good ideas. Maybe someone from the studios is reading and, if they are, DTS is ready to support it.Karen at DTS
Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 03-19-2002, 04:09 PM:
Hey in Quebec, we get DTS discs in english for English prints, french for french prints, actualy It's the same time code for all versions, did a test discs work fine with any print! Here is the snag , it is illegal to run an English soundtrack on a french print or vice-versa, the reason, local classification board (read hidden taxation departement) gets so much per foot of film "classified", they would lose out revenue on an extra print if you they would accept to use different language discs on prints!------------------
Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 03-19-2002, 04:27 PM:
Well, nuts! I read an article just a few days ago about lower movie attendance but I can't remember where I saw it... so I'll have to stand corrected for now.Meanwhile, for those of you who don't appreciate unnecessary profanity in the movies, you're never going to convince Hollywood to change its standards so long as people are paying money to watch movies which they still find offensive.
Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 03-19-2002, 05:18 PM:
Well BINGO Barry! We could test your system at a Cine-Parc in Quebec! One frequency for french, one english. Or, can that be done?
Two sets of DTS discs running off ONE timecode? That would be a neat option for you Tom, those wishing to hear the movie en englais could tune in to a low-power FM with their walkmans!
Posted by Steven Gorsky (Member # 603) on 03-20-2002, 01:14 AM:
I believe you can use two players with one reader using the 70mm "failsafe" board. Although in this case you need two sound processors.Steven Gorsky
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 03-21-2002, 12:43 PM:
In regards to what DTS offers in playing back films in multiple languages, we make feature discs in languages selected by the studios. It is very common for them to have us make French Canadian discs at almost the same time domestic (English) discs are made. Then, after a week or so, they may ask us to do other langages.We do have 70mm failsafe boards to run DTS 70mm shows. The board connects two DTS players to one CP and reader. Multiple readers can be used but it's more common for the system to use one reader. Either way will work. Anyway, each DTS player has a priority. One is the main player and the other is the "backup." So, if the main player has a problem, the failsafe board will look at the fallback pulse from the main player and use that to switch in the "backup" player. Only one player feeds audio to the CP at a time.
To run two languages at the same time, you'd need two players and feed the center channel of tbe "alternate" langage to a transmitter picked up by patrons wearing headsets. We do this for special venue but it is not generally used at "regular" neighborhood cinemas.
The DTS-CSS system has this feature built in and if it's used with a DTS player, you have many possibilites - you'd have the versatility of running different presentations for each show time. You could play the film in French with English subtitles at noon and then run in Spanish with French translation on headsets for the 3pm show. It's a pretty cool system.
If you'd like more info on the DTS-CSS system, please visit our web site a www.dtsonline.com once there, click on 'cinema'.
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com