Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Film-Guard Problem

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Posted by Mike Williams (Member # 1140) on 03-18-2002, 10:48 AM:

The theater I am at runs the Strong Model 1060 projectors and seem to have the same problem.

If I apply film-guard to a print, I have a major problem with it shaking as it passes the main gate in front of the apperature plate. I have tried adjusting the pressure bands to the maximum tightness and it still does not seem to help. Luckily, after 2 or 3 shows, this problem goes away. I am pretty sure I am applying it correctly. I am using the Kelmar media type film cleaner with the media soaked in film-guard (just like in the directions).

Does anybody have any ideas to fix this? I do not want to have to run each movie 2-3 times on Thursday nights to get the film-guard worked in.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-18-2002, 12:07 PM:

I have only found that on a freshly Film-Guarded print, I have to turn up the tension "1-click" for that show. Since the Film-Guard contains a lubricant, it will have less friction for the gate to work with. I'm surprised that you can get the gate tension up to "5" on a Simplex and still not control the jump.

Incidentally, what media are you using. I have found that some soak up and apply more than others.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 03-18-2002, 01:37 PM:

Make sure you use the "Film-Tech" Media Pads instead of the Kelmar ones. They work much better.

I have had this same problem on Strong/Simplex projectors. I found at least in my case two problems, one of which is solved easily. Just make sure that your film path in the projector is squeeky clean between each run. The other is a maintenance issue so I wont bother to go into that one.

Also, while soaking the pads is good, I used a wire mesh screen to sit them on after soaking, so they could lose any excess film guard. Too much film guard is not a good thing.

Dave

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 03-18-2002, 01:53 PM:

Check your tension spring and make sure it isn't starting to bend.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-18-2002, 02:01 PM:

Most Strongs run it just fine, but I have seen a few that exhibit this problem. It's always the later models with the separate gate and intermittent shoe.

Assuming there isn't a legitimate problem with your machine, sandwich a tiny piece of thin cardboard at the top of the gate bands like has been done in this picture on a Christie projector. This will solve your problem. Do be sure that this is not only happening on one specific projector. If it is specific to one, have your tech look at it. If you see it on all of them, you got one of those batches of projectors. It is normal to raise gate tension a couple of clicks when running FilmGuard because the film is now well lubricated and when the intermittent pulls each frame down, it keeps "sliding" further downward after the intermittent stops if proper gate tension is not there.

Posted by Mike Williams (Member # 1140) on 03-18-2002, 05:41 PM:

I think you are right. It must be the media. I am using the Kelmar media.

Thanks

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-18-2002, 08:40 PM:

With respect to tension on Simplex projectors, my customers have had no problem with Kelmar, Film-Tech or Neumade media supplying the Film-Guard. Now there are comments as to how each of the media perform but that is another topic.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-18-2002, 10:29 PM:

Simplex PR-1060? This is the one with the flip-up gate, similar to the Christie's... No?

Adjusting the gate tension on these babies is an inexact science. There's a stop screw that adjusts the gate closure. It just might be the case that you need to (have your tech) check up on that.

From everything I've been able to find out, there's no specific setting for that screw. You just have to "eyeball" it.

Point is that if you don't have stop screw set correctly you won't get enough tension, no matter what you have the tension knob set at. Normally, without F.G. you should be setting it at the minimum number to get a steady picture. With the F.G. making the film slippery, you might be needing a tension setting that's outside of the range of normal adjustment.

With luck you should be able to find a gate stop setting that will give you a happy medium between the two... Dry and with F.G.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-19-2002, 01:11 AM:

Steve,

AMC Mesquite 30 has these projectors and they had issues 2-3 years ago when they started using it. Apparently Strong had some sort of gate/shoe/trap/something-or-other upgrade/fix and that solved their problem. Any idea what that could've been? I can call and ask their tech to see if he remembers what they did specifically if this doesn't jog your memory. Overall though, people with problems in the field are extremely rare. 99% of all projectors run FilmGuarded prints perfectly without any extra steps. Those few that do I generally tell them if on their first time to use FilmGuard (not the first time on a given print, but the first time period) that if they can not control the jumping during the trailers, just to pull the film out of the cleaner and the fix is always easy and generally needed to be done to the projector to run film properly anyway.

BTW, the AMC I spoke of earlier was using "white" Kelmar pads.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 03-20-2002, 01:02 PM:

At my last theater, we had Simplex Milleniums, the kind with the seperate gate and shoe (Century-inspired). I had the same problem. Not just with one projector, but with most. Whenever I would run FG for the first time, I'd have to tighten the tension all the way (or almost all the way) for one or two shows. After that, I could return the tentsion to were it was. It really bugged me! I feel bad for the customers, too. They shouldn't have to see any jumping, even if only for the first 10 seconds of the first trailer.

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2002, 01:19 PM:

Ken, please read the directions before you use a product, because you are complaining about something that is not a problem and is discussed in the instruction sheet. That is perfectly normal and the fact that you were able to steady the picture with the gate tension control shows your projectors were fine and were not part of the rare group that is being discussed here.

Just find a setting that works and leave it there. That's what everyone I know does. Otherwise you'll have to change that setting every time you load up new pads in order for it to work properly...kind of like having to change out those pesky dts discs every time you load up a new movie. You don't forget to change out discs, do you? Of course not. This is no different, except for the fact that you CAN find one gate tension setting and just leave it there.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 03-22-2002, 10:38 AM:

The problem with finding one setting that works and leaving it there is that the setting that worked with the Film Guard was usually 5 - the tightest. Am I correct in understanding that for normal operation it is best to run and the lowest tension that still acheives a steady picture? I don't want to run at 5 on a normal basis.

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-22-2002, 12:16 PM:

Things are a bit different when you use FilmGuard. Regular booth guidelines such as gate tension are suddenly not the big deal that it is when you run film dry. No two projectors are the same. A setting of 5 on your projectors may be equivalent to 3 on another complex of the same model projectors made 1 year later, or another type entirely. All of the people I know of personally who use FG find a gate tension setting that works for them and just leave it. There have been no detrimental effects and as has been proven many times, even the digital tracks show improvement, instead of wear like happens when the film is ran dry.

Bottom line, just set them once and forget about it.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 03-22-2002, 01:28 PM:

Okyday. If I ever work at a theater again that has a media cleaner and uses FG, I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....