This is topic Towers and long films in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-06-2002, 09:34 AM:
Well from the looks of the current crop of towers...about 3hours is the limit on a continious show. What do you people with tower film transports do about such films as Titanic, or the recent long films this past winter (Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings, once previews and adverts are put on)? Did they fit on your towers or did you have to create an intermission. And if you did create an intermission, how did you choose? Did the studio provide any guidance on the intermission placement (knowing that in many European countries intermissions are expected)?
I have a potential tower situation and am curious.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 04-06-2002, 11:05 AM:
With polyester stock on a 36 diameter spool the limit is about 2 hours 45 minutes. Titanic I had to have an intermission. Harry Potter I run straight through as it was under 150 minutes, an interval was allowed at the end of reel 5 if requested, the renter then sent you the intermission title. Lord Of The Rings, the intermission allowed in the UK was at the end of reel 3, in Germany I believe at the end of reel 5.No 2 projector was used for the Adverts & Trailers.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-06-2002, 11:14 AM:
Man, the Europeans have it so easy. Imagine calling up any of the distribs here in the good ole US of A, asking for them to send an intermission snipe cause you want to put in an intermission....and, oh, yah, how about sending one with some intermission music on it as well? OK, you can stop laughing now.
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-06-2002, 11:37 AM:
Titanic at 194 minutes will fit fine on a 40" reel (with 8" core) It will also fit on a 39" reel with a 5-3/4" core (but not as fine). Everything else (with a few exceptions) is shorter than that and so they will fit on a 40"er just fine. So if you have a tower with 40" reels, you're set. Most films will fit on 34"-36" reels------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-06-2002, 05:35 PM:
With "giant" reels (my term; I call the 5-6K's "big" reels) rewinding becomes an issue since it must be done entirely between shows. So how long to rewind one of those puppies, about 20 min?
Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 04-06-2002, 06:00 PM:
In one of our cinemas (2 screens), we have Xetron walts that carry 18,000FT. reels, it takes betwenn 18 min. average 105 min. show to 24 min. 165min. show, Twin sometimes runs 4 different pictures a night so, rewinding is done after shows during cleanup or next day during preparation. When running single pictures we give 30 to 40 minutes between shows anyway for cleanup & preparation. 
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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-06-2002, 11:04 PM:
I'm looking to use a Kinoton SPT 5000K spool tower...it will handle 40" reels but claims to want 11" or larger hubs. So I hadn't planned to have 8" hubs offered...only 12" (since hubs in that size move from 10 to 12 inch). So will Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings fit onto a 12 hub, 40" flange reel?Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-07-2002, 12:25 AM:
Haven't tried that one specifically but it's amazing how little difference the hub size matters compared to the outside diameter. Really that 4" difference at the hub amounts to only about 1/3-1/2 of a reel. I'd say no to Titanic but yes to the other two. Maybe you can get into the speed control and up the top end a bit to get down to 8"------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-07-2002, 01:34 AM:
It has been my understanding that the weight of the film mounted on the 14,000-foot reels (or whatever they were) would cause damage to the inner-most convolutions if the reels were constantly left in the vertical position. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Paul
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-07-2002, 07:31 AM:
No, but I've long suspected that the sheer weight of film stock together with its uneven distribution when mounted vertically is a strong argument against the use of towers. I can see that in projection boxes with a very small footprint space they might be a necessary evil, but I've never liked the things.
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-07-2002, 11:28 AM:
Paul
I haven't seen any damage over the last 10 years------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-07-2002, 11:47 AM:
Well the space I'm looking to install one has a space problem and film will only be shown in it 2-6 times per year (so no storage problem...just build it up, show it, and break it down). I suspect even the tower will be on wheels to get it out of the way except on show day. I guess I'm gonna pose the question to Kinoton as to just how small a hub it can really handle (if so tweeked).
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 04-07-2002, 04:14 PM:
I used 6 hubs on 36 diameter spools, and with the projector on slow-mo start e.g. transformer tapped at 165 volts with a relay delay before full load of 230 volts on initial start, the take-up was always smooth without snatching. The wire type Kinoton spools should be very efficient and trouble free. One operator I know of has been touring the country in mostly live theatre venues with the film Singalong Sound Of Music. There of course is an alternative, the Cinemecannica easy-spool with 8 hubs only turning until well after initial start, the cheeks being free revolving! Going by a local theatre which has an annual week of film classics, the hired Kinoton projector and tower is installed in the most confined space.
Edit correction 05.07.2002 - (projector on slow-mo start) inserted in the first paragraph! 
Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 04-07-2002, 04:31 PM:
It's not that easy in all Europe !
The Potter-intermission was made in half the danish first-run theatres after the british tip, found on the Film-Tech site, but certainly not with the blessing of the local distributor, who meant this was to make an extra turn of concession-profit for each show, and absolutely could n o t deliver any intermission-sign.
Had to run without intermission the last 3 weeks, to get schedule to work, and my impression was, that audiences (of course mostly families with kids) were happy with the break. -People leaving after the run-through-shows thought the film was too long !Lord of the Rings prints were delivered with intermission, but many (greedy)theatres took it out to make room for an extra show per day.
A bit tough sitting through exactly that one, i think.
Per
Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 04-07-2002, 04:32 PM:
--but we sure d i d sell a lot during those Potter-breaks 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-07-2002, 05:43 PM:
Fortunately, Kinoton projectors and even the tower use motor controllers to control ramp up speed so if I wanted say even a 10-second ramp up (rather than the factory 5-seconds) is no problem.Steve
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-07-2002, 07:20 PM:
I saw LOTR running at one of my sites on a single reel. I don't know the exact size of the hub sorry. Almost all of the spools in use here are 38" OD.
The floating hub or eazi start type reels are great, but I've only ever seen them with 10" or larger hubs, which limits their usefullness. The cheeks of the Cinemec ones bend too easily for my liking, the Goldberg is a little better in that respect, and has a smaller hub, BUT doesn't seem to be capable of being shipped to the UK without being bent in the process. The Kinoton wire spools are very good, there is also Rigby (Premier) available here which are all but indestructable. Those come in two hub sizes (it was the smaller of the two that allowed LOTR in one shot).Paul, I've used and serviced towers for ten years now, and I've never seen film damage caused by the weight of the film. I had one site (now thankfully closed!) that amongst other bad habits, would take the spools off the tower and place them flat overnight. All this served to do was give the operators back ache and bend the checks of the spools where they grabbed them.
Steve K. The manual for the Westrex 5035 Film Carrier Assembly (Tower to U & me!) states that a full spool should be rewound in no less than 20 minutes. As most cinemas using towers are usually not fim factory type places, that works well as one audience has get out, the auditoreum cleaned, and the next audience got in.
Steve G. As you can control both the Projector ramp up and the tower then I don't see why you couldn't use smaller hubs than Kinoton spec. It's always the smaller hubs not being able to get up to speed fast enough that caused start up problems, so as you can slow the projector ramp up, and probably increase the tower ramp up, you shouldn't have any trouble. That said I've zero experience of the Kinoton tower, but certainly with a Westrex one could always increase take up tension for starting. I set most Westars up to ramp up in 6 seconds, this seems to work really well with the 5035 tower, and generally the operator can find a tension setting that will give a smooth start every time.
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-07-2002, 07:32 PM:
Don't those towers have power feeds as well as take up?------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 04-07-2002, 07:41 PM:
Hi,
Just for your info, The Xetron Walts running here use 42inch reels with a 14 inch hub, Old Instructions for this unit claimed that in tests done ;film is less subject to damage on a reel with larger hub film rewinding slower on bigger hubs,hence the 14 inch hub is required & accepted for these units. In the past, Have used up to 52 inch reels with eprad double muts and found out that we had some film damage using the smaller hubs even the easy start floating hubs available back then,we remedied by putting "dummy" film too augment hub size thus curtailing damage on the begining of prints (20 years ago). Tom ------------------
Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 04-07-2002, 07:46 PM:
Greg,
Cinemeccanica towers 2b4 &4b4s had powered clutch take-ups but no power feed-out, Eprad Doudle-Muts had direct motor take-up & feed out, Xetron Walts have Motor driven take-up and feed out similar to platter motors with rubber pucks (wheels). Tom------------------
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-08-2002, 04:30 AM:
The Westrex tower has powered pay off. Each spool shaft is driven with a dedicated motor and you can adjust the tension on pay off and take up independantly 'on the fly'. The rewind control is proportional between top and bottom shafts.
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 04-08-2002, 08:12 AM:
I have made a correction to my post of yesterday; I somehow omitted projector in the first paragraph.
.As I had 8 very good Premier 36 spools with 6 hubs, the Cinemec floating 12 hub one was never used.
Rewinding on the Westrex tower was always done using the pay-off & take-off controls only, in preference for better tension taking 15-20 minutes.
Personally I would like to see a double sided tower system made without having to use spools completely. Say, solid 40 fixed diameter plates with a horizontal bar to keep, therefore only the film would move on 6 cores. I did several experiments a year or so ago, with a 6K plate, which worked perfectly! Pity I didnt think of the idea many years ago, I would have done this myself and have the only tower (that I know of) with no spools.
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-08-2002, 09:49 AM:
Rewinding on the tensions? I've come across that in one location on the coast, something about the air makes the film always rewind soft. Other than something like humidity causing poor rewind, having to use the RUN to rewind usually means that the large wirewound variable resistor in the rewind circuit needs attention, or has broken. I've also seen the contacts in the rotary side selector switch do odd things, which can cause that, amongst other wierd faults. Replacing those is a real chore. Youcan't get the original switch ( I believe Westrex made these in house ) so we use a readily available industrial control switch. Of course the pin out doesn't match, and with hell knows how many wires on that switch, working out what goes where is great fun. After the first time I did it ( a whole mornings work!) I literally wrote the book on replacing the selector switch on the 5035. Thankfully those towers are almost indestructible, so this is a rare task to perform.
Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 04-08-2002, 10:07 AM:
Am I the only one who has never seen a film tower?
I used to think film-techers meant five-platter stacks,
but apparently towers have vertical reels.
Perhaps they were not used in the NYC area, or are of
very recent invention.Can someone provide a link that explains how they work,
and what advantages (if any) they have? Or a photo?
Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 04-08-2002, 10:19 AM:
Gerald,
Look in the manuals of film tech, Cinemec. tower is there, also look for eprad sword, and there is a picture of Xetron Walts in one of the stored topics in forum film handlers. Tom------------------
Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 04-08-2002, 10:27 AM:
Thanks, Tom--
Manuals to the rescue!
GeraRd.............................................
"Si tienes prisa, paseme por encima."
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 04-08-2002, 12:12 PM:
Gerard: Check out the 'Phoenix Theatre' in the Pic Warehouse, they have a Cinemeccanica tower in the booth there.-Aaron
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 04-08-2002, 01:15 PM:
Gerard:If you search Alan Plester in Film Handler's Forum and click on Platter systems, you will find two pictures of the Westrex double sided tower.
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-08-2002, 02:11 PM:
For my interpretation of a film tower see http://users.silverlink.net/~mueller/film6.htm
since the picture was taken I've added power feed to the system. I used to rely on the projector to pull the film off but after a couple of disasters I added a feed motor and "dancer" arm------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 04-08-2002, 07:12 PM:
Wow!
You guys are as good as a seminar or Towers 101!
I'd guess the tower concept antedated the widespread use of
platters? I seem to remember the Eprad/Sword threat to the
livelihood of union projectionists when the Jerry Lewis' Mom
and Pop "Movies on every crossroads" proposal was floated.
I guess the chains steamrollered that idea by building multi-
plexes, but I thought the machines were obsolete. At least
they were kept out of the NY metro region by the unions, but the
platters damn near did us in.
Seems to me the big advantage is the saving of space, enabling
rotund types to tinker in tight booths; also the saving of muscle
power over changeover systems, appreciated by near-retirement Moms
and Pops. But from Greg's example, the idea seems ideal for a
personal screening room at home! Which has me studying the links
you posted.... Many thanks!
Gerard (IATSE pension after 26 years.)
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 04-08-2002, 07:31 PM:
I remember installing a platter in the early 1970's in a grind house in Tampa, Florida and the business agent from the local dropped by and announced that this was the biggest piece of 
he had seen and it would never last.... it ran for 18 years until the cinema closed down. The booth had BX-60/RCA 9030 and the second machine was left in in case of emergency ( never needed ).In the early 1970's AMC was building 4 plex cinemas with the Perdue automated large reel transports, which made a racket when the film was being rewound. My associate in Spain has noted that large reel transports are very common and work as efficient as platters up to three screens...then platters make more sense.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com
Posted by Tom Fermanian (Member # 1094) on 04-08-2002, 07:43 PM:
I agree, loads of smaller houses (twins mostly) run towers, some double muts etc. to fine results, Europe does have plenty of them, older projectionists swear by them,Some others swear by changeovers, some of them swear by platters, some of them just swear! 
Vive la difιrence!!------------------