Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: house lights for end credits?

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Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 04-11-2002, 01:10 AM:

i was curious to find out film-techer's opinion's on 'when to fade up the house lights for the end credits?'.
i was always taught to either wait for the cast credits to end or give them 20-30 secs of credits in darkness, then to raise the house lights to a low level, on the occasions where the film has images still/moving on the credits to leave the lights down until either it goes to dark or the very end and then raise the lights as you close the curtains.
for instance on "monsoon wedding" i left the house lights down until the very end, due to the wedding scenes that are intermittent through the credits and also on "the royal tenenbaums" i would wait for the main 'star' cast credits to end then i will raise the lights slightly.
i currently work in a non automated cinema but i have worked at a cinema with panalogic automation and i found it easy to pre determine the best point for the lights to raise, while placing foil cues .
the reason i raise this subject is that, almost every other cinema i go to raises their house lights to full within one second of fading to black (multi plex) and the other smaller cinemas to half lights also in the first second of black.
i am not saying that what i do is right and anyone else is wrong, only that i am puzzled at their actions and would like to know what others do. i have very limited control over our lights but i am always trying to find new ways of making it look better.
when i used to work at the luna cinema in leederville we had these great hand controlled dimmers and we used to do extremely slow fades of lighting, it's good fun to be able to be creative while projecting!

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-11-2002, 02:00 AM:

Good question, Brad, and one we've wrestled with over the years. We found that there are two conflicting objectives when it comes to the credit crawl. One is the respect that is due the cast and crew who made the film. Everyone in the profession knows that crediting work is part and parcel of our business. So you have this goal of playing the film out so that every name on the crawl can be seen by the audience.

On the other hand, you have the practical business of patron safety. As much as we movie mogul type might sit glued to our seats until the last frame of the film, most folk choose to use that credit crawl time to get their butts out of the theatre. Obviously you can't say, well, the film is still running so you are on your own....if you trip and break a leg, too bad, you should have stayed in your seat until the end of the credits. Well, you can say that, but it won't play well with the jury in the "I've fallen and I can't get up and it's the theatre's fault" civil lawsuit that will inevitably flow from an all-lights-out-till-the-last-frame policy. Obviously this is not the solution. You need to bring the house up at least enough so that people are not tripping over themselves.

If one is lucky enough to work in a well designed theatre, the house lighting system will be able to go to a "credits" preset. This is where lighting over the isles can play at a higher level than the seating area and without throwing light on the stage/screen area. This allows people who do want to sit and watch the entire credit crawl, not be distracted by excessive light on them or on the screen. Of course, that's in a perfect world. Most systems have dimmers that simply bring everything up uniformly, or won't allow for a variety of presets. I've been spoiled because all the theatres I've worked in also are live performance spaces and thus have fairly sophistocated lighting systems that you can pretty much set to do anything you want.
In our Cantor Theatre [pictures soon to be posted, right Brad ] we have five settings: FULL, 1/2 HOUSE, CREDITS, SHOW and LECTURE, plus an infinate number of selectable presets that can be customized and assigned to additional buttons if needed. The CREDITS position is just that -- a setting for the credits that brings light up in the isles, just enough for the escapees, while keeping the lights over the audience and stage dim.

Where you don't have those kinds of systems, then I would suggest the best thing to do would be to bring up the lights as high as you need them so that people can see their way out of the theatre safely. You don't what to be named in that lawsuit, stuttering and stammering in the witness chair.

Frank

PS -- Whatever you do, don't use what you see them doing in the multiplexes as a guide to what's the correct thing to do in any aspect of cinema operation.

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 04-11-2002, 06:28 AM:

Yes I've noticed that on "Lord of the Rings" that the lights don't come up until well into the Credits and a lot of people trying to get out find it hard to move when others are still watching the Credits or are slowly making their way out , the way I used to do it was bring half the lights up so that those who wanted to make the dash could , then bring up the full house lights when it turned to Black but there were some exceptions , like "4 weddings & a ..." which went strait to black then showed some of the wedding photo's so I kept the lights down until this finished , you are trying to tell the people that there is more to come , but some just want to bolt as soon as the film is over ,for others that want to watch the very last credit you need to give abit of a nudge along , turn the sound down gradually then close the curtains (if you have them)but you might get abit of a stare from them

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A KIWI eats,roots & Leaves.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 04-11-2002, 08:00 AM:

My rule is NEVER turn on the light if something is showing on the screen different from credits.

So, for example, "I am sam" will be projected with no light until children's drawing are shown. Me Myself and Irene until "bad ciaks" will over.

Unfortunately most of the audiences are not interested in meanless credits. So, for example, while the beautiful landscapes of "twister" are shown most of people start rising and people that are watching the images cannot see them anymore.

So in that cases, I'm "forced" to turn on the light after the "directed by" tag.

However also with black titles I usually raise lights after few seconds the "directed by".

Many many theaters in Florence raise light almost before the credits...

I remember Star Wars episode one. One theater turned on the lights while the screen faded with the "circle" (that discovers the "directed by george lucas")...

Same theater turned on the light on Harry Potter WHILE the last image was fading WHILE the orchestra completed the "tutti"...

Terrible.

Only once I tried to keep the light off during "static" credits: customers while were tring to exit, said "why dark?? perhaps lights has gone??"

Bye
Antonio

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-11-2002, 08:11 AM:

I agree with Frank Angel's comments. A low level of auditorium illumination should be used during the final credits, for the safety of the (IMHO impolite) audience members who leave during the credits. As a matter of "Film Done Right", house lighting should never shine ON the screen, especially while the movie is still playing. It is very poor showmanship and rude for clean-up crews to begin cleaning the auditorium before the credits finish, unless ALL customers have left the auditorium. Show scheduling should allow sufficient time to clean the auditorium without intruding upon the audience while the credits are still running.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
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Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 04-11-2002, 08:53 AM:

Some films seem to have a strange effect on people in which they need to watch the very last credits , I noticed this with "Schindlers List" and "Once were Warriors" where I kept the house lights low to the very end and no music to follow ,as these movies deeply effected them and this is where Curtains had a closing effect for the viewers ,it was not unusual for some to just sit and wait for the curtains to close before moving .

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-11-2002, 11:02 AM:

In general, I think the house lights need to come up to about 1/2 at the first credit. When I saw "The Rookie" yesterday, they did it appropriately for that movie. The film ends with a fade to black that lasts several seconds, then the credits start. The lights didn't come up until that first credit hit the screen.

There are also movies with outtakes during some or all of the credits. Now ideally it would be great to hold off on bringing up the lights until the outtakes are over. But it's a judgment call, since some people will want to leave anyway and might need some light to see where they're going.

Paul makes a good point. Some movies (not very many) do affect the audience in a way the causes many to sit through the credits and ponder what they have just seen. Staff should take this into consideration.

And staff should NEVER enter the theater to start cleanup until it's completely empty.

Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 04-11-2002, 11:34 AM:

We use a low level of lighting during trailers and credits which allows people to see if they wish to leave, yet leaves the screen and auditorium dark to allow for those who prefer to stay and watch the credits.

We raise the lights to this level for the credits only after they have established themselves, and this varies according to each movie. Sometimes there's a change in the music, or some picture credits will end, or perhaps static credits turn into rolling credits.

John Wilson's new procedure(tm) is to cue the print at the very start of the credits, then set a delay time on the automation for however long we like until we want the lights to come up. This delay time can be determined with a stopwatch during the first screening. This also has the benefit of standardising print makeup, and allows 'fine tuning' of 'lights up' without touching the cue on the print. Absolutely brilliant, methinks!

One of the chains I used to work for issued a memo from head office stating that house light are to go to full the moment the first credit hits the screen. Imagine how beautifully that would work for something like 'Taxi Driver' or 'Five Easy Pieces' or the aforementioned 'Royal Tenenbaums'.

Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 04-11-2002, 12:04 PM:

It has always been my habit to play houselights at half during
trailers and also at the beginning of credits. When placing a cue for credits I look to see if there are any out-takes or such. IF there are
then I place th cue a little later. Most of the audience, like me, doesn't sit through credits so it is important to get the lights up for
safety reason. I agree with Mr Pytlak that it is rude for cleaning staff to begin their cleaning process while customers are still in the
auditorium but most theatre managers will send them in anyway so the houses can be clean for the next show. It's a compromise, I suppose.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-11-2002, 12:17 PM:

My biggest problem with light cues is that if it isn't done carefully, the cue on the film will be noticable to the audience. I absolutely HATE those reflective cues which are placed on the framelines; I've seen the endings of several movies ruined where there will be a dramatic fadeout followed by square flashes on the screen. They may as well have scratched "LIGHTS UP!" onto a few frames. I worked at a place that used these and I would always place them so they could not be seen onscreen; it was easy to do with flat films but with scope they have to be placed either on the first frame of black where the last shot cuts to black, otherwise they have to be hidden between lines in the credit crawl.
Personally, I think the lights should stay down until the ENTIRE movie is over, but have enough ambient light so people can get out of the theater anytime for whatever reason- how can a lawsuit from an injury during the credits be any different than one if someone got up in the middle of the movie? I would cue the lights to go up for boring white-on-black credits, but keep them down if anything was happening onscreen- "Twister" would have been ruined if the lights had come up during the end credits with the scenic shots, but if you normally bring the lights up they should come up as soon as the last shot fades to black and you have the few seconds of closing logos.
One thing I don't get is some theaters will leave the lights up during the trailers, but have them go all the way down when the policy trailer starts- to keep it consistent, I preferred to have the lights dim during the opening studio logos if they were going to come back up at the end credits.
I will NEVER understand why people are in such a hurry to leave- if you've done a good job, they should not want to leave your theatre!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-11-2002, 12:20 PM:

We do the same as Carl King. Half-lights during previews and half-lights for the final credits when the dimmers support it.

As John pointed out, it is a safety issue.

Posted by Daniel Boisson (Member # 1027) on 04-11-2002, 12:40 PM:

I usually wait until everyone is out of the theatre, or at least until no one is paying attention to the screen. However, if it was a very crowded showing, the people are gonna have a hard time getting out in darkness, so then I raise the lights to a low level.

Paul has a good point with leaving the lights low on films that may have affected people. I (and the other projectionists) did that with We Were Soldiers. People do notice that as someone thanked the projectionist working on leaving the lights low.

My manager is always tells us to bring the lights up so the cleaners can get in and do their job when the showing is very crowded. I suppose he can make a good arguement also.

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3% Body Fat. 1% Brain Activity.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-11-2002, 01:04 PM:

As John said, cleanup crews should NEVER enter the theatre while the film is still running or even while people are in the auditorium. That is pretty much the equivalent of cleaners coming into a restaurant, sloshing their ammonia water pails and mops around your feet and sweeping up garbage from the floor and turning chairs up on the tables while you are still trying to finish your meal. It's disgusting, and certainly should be right up there as one of the top ten mortal sins of theatre operation.

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 04-11-2002, 01:58 PM:

Frank, where is "Brooklkyn NY?"

The realities are that sometimes cleaning crews have to come in during credits if the next audience isn't going to sit in

Show schedules sometimes don't allow for sufficient down time between shows. When the number of shows per day is set by the distrib. there isn't much you can do.

Besides, if you go to many restaurants today, you'll find the table clearing, sweeping, and mopping occurs whenever a table empties. I can't think of a single restaurant where tables aren't bussed regularly.

Posted by Bob Peticolas (Member # 328) on 04-11-2002, 02:11 PM:

Our houselights are on three dimmers: front of house (near screen), middle, and back. The audience enters and exits at the back. When the credits start, the back lights come up to about half. This allows people to exit without falling and killing themselves (a dead patron won't come back - lost income). This way the die-hards (like myself) can sit in the dark and watch the credits to the bitter end. But, there is still enough light (not on the screen, though) to get up and leave if they must.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-11-2002, 03:01 PM:

Jerry analogized:
>Besides, if you go to many restaurants today, you'll find the
>table clearing, sweeping, and mopping occurs whenever a table
>empties. I can't think of a single restaurant where tables aren't
>bussed regularly.

Poor analogy since diners arrive and depart at random times. A better analogy on the restaurant model would be a banquet room and I don't think you'd want them cleaning up while your wedding reception is still in progress just because they booked Joe Smith's retirement party too closely.

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 04-11-2002, 04:29 PM:

I agree that a restaurant wasn't a good analogy to use in the first place. As far as banquets and rented halls, I give you ShoWest, where I stopped attending the dinners early on because of the rude waitstaff and rush to push everyone out at the end of the meals. The tech tradeshow lunches I've attended weren't much better.

The real analogy to the situation is that of live theatre, where the "credits" are the bows at the end of the performance. These usually take only a minute or two and provide feedbak to the performers. Movie credits, the offspring of curtain calls, have become long, dull, boring, stupifyingly slow, tedious credit rolls, touting the wares of everyone right down to the third lacky that served donuts to the crew on alternate Tuesdays.

The public is voting with their feet and our system of self-gratification is too self-absorbed to notice. The white on black credit roll is not art nor is it a movie. If you waited 15 minutes after one and then asked 1000 people who actually stayed to watch the entire credits to name just five names on the roll (that weren't recognizable actors), I'll bet that only a dozen would be up to the task.

If people are supposed to sit and watch credits, aren't film makers and producers supposed to entertain them? "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" had decent credits. Some of the outtake bloopers credit rolls are cute, but for most of the white on black rolls, the cleaning crew is the most entertaining thing in the auditorium.

How many people read a book and then read the index at the end? I'd much rather do that than read some credit rolls.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-11-2002, 05:25 PM:

The credits aren't for the audience, they're for the people who worked on the movie. At Dynamix, whenever a new game was ready to ship, the development teams were always very careful to make sure they didn't inadvertantly omit the names of anyone who had a role in producing the end product. For some people it's a small "Atta-Boy" to be recognized. Of course nobody who buys the game (or watches the movie) cares about the minor contributors though.

Who is the arbiter of who gets their name on screen and who doesn't?

I know a guy who left Dynamix and went to work at ILM as a digital artist. His name often shows up buried deep in the special effects credits. Kind of like "One of the 27 Artists Ordered By George To Spend 6 Weeks Adding Another Storm Trooper To Scene 17, Frames 97 Thru 145". I say they all worked directly on what showed up on the screen, so by George they deserve their names in the credits!

Is the exit music timed to the credits, or is it the other way around? Sometimes it seems like when a film has a particularly good symphonic score, the end credits are timed to match the length of a musical composition.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-11-2002, 06:00 PM:

I have no problem with raising the lights for the credits. I don't think it is rude at all. In fact, I feel the length of the credits are the imposition since it begs people to stay in their seats.

Whilst the people do deserve their do, I don't consider it part of the film or entertainment. They are like the bibliography to a book...not required reading but there if you are interested. Back in film's glory days, after the "THE END" card came up, that was it, the show was over....on some occasions, there may be "The Players" that lasted a couple of seconds. Heck, even Apocolypse Now for the original 70MM engagements did not have ANY end credits but there was a hand out card. Now that is a way to give people their credit without the imposistion. Kinda like a live stage show. There are a whole bunch of people that go into a live production but only the "talent" takes it's bow, not the crew yet the play bill does list the crew.

With that said, I also agree that the clean up crew should NOT come into the theatre until the film is over, curtain closed (and if you don't have a curtain, GET ONE!)...intermissions should be scheduled to provide for the clean up and if that is just so impossible, please stay out of the way and don't block those people that actually wish to read the credits!

Therefore, in the desire to accommodate all, I too side with raising the house lights some to allow a safe exit yet not fully to make reading the credits impossible.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 04-11-2002, 07:00 PM:

As far as the house lights go, i cue mine to start fading up as soon as the first credit hits the screen. The lights fade up to about a quarter of full brightness, so this is ok for an adult feature although i might set them to half for a kids film (kids ALWAYS lose something and need the extra lumination!)

What i find over here in the UK is that when the credits roll, the audience interpret that as their cue to leave, and sometimes it seems like they believe first out the door wins a big prize, even if it means second guessing the ending and starting to get up when it seems the film is wrapping up!

So you can understand when i tell you that customers often APOLOGISE for watching the credits, because they either wanted to know where it was filmed, what that song they really liked was or because they wanted to see the name of their second cousins girlfriends hamster in the credits!

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 04-11-2002, 07:17 PM:

As allready mentioned above: Those enjoying a film owe those people, who made the film enjoyable, to wait and see who did what - and those impolite ignorants

who can't, should be welcome to break a leg or two on their way out in the dark - but next show will be delayed, while waiting for the ambulance to come, -and therefore: a little bit of light to let even them safe to the exit...
Average cinema audience, i'm afraid, aren't that well-trained as you would like them to be. -Just think of running a "real movie show" today with curtain in after trailers and maybe even overture without pics. -Most of the auditorium would be turning around to se, what the idiot up there now is up to...

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 04-11-2002, 07:20 PM:

Andy: SPOILER>>>>
Cousins hamster is called "Rachel" - Now You wont need to watch all those titles to find out - let the curtains close, ready for next show chop chop

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-11-2002, 09:16 PM:

I certainly do not consider it rude to raise the house lights to half-mast during credit roll. They are raised, in my mind, for safety purposes for the people who get up and leave.

I do, however, consider it rude to turn on the cleaning lights during the credit rolls.

I know of several people who will sit and watch the entire credit roll. Maybe they are looking for a certain thing, or maybe they are just listening to the music. Some of the music is quite nice.

Whatever the case may be, the people who buy tickets are entitled to see the entire film from beginning to end. That also includes the credits.

I have never heard of one complaint because we raised the houselights to half mast during the credits. However, I have heard of complaints of staff coming in to clean the auditorium during the credit roll.

Several times when I was running a booth, the manager or owner came into the booth and told me to snap off the credits so the people would get up and leave.

I think you all know what my answer was.

Well, I was never removed from my booth, nor was I ever going to be, shall we say, over-ridden?

Management generally figures out it is a waste of time bothering me with such an assinine request.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-11-2002, 10:02 PM:

Andy's post reminded me.....on "adult films"....that is one where the house lights NEVER are brought up until everything on the screen is good and done! Adult film here being of the rating X and higher!

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Miguel Angel Martorell (Member # 1110) on 04-11-2002, 10:14 PM:

Tomorrow with "Panic Room" the ground people have only 6 minutes between one show and another to clean up the auditorium so they have to start cleaning when the first credit starts so I have to turn on all the lights. This is a normal practice in my company
I find it a shame but they rule, they pay (little) so I obey.
Un saludo

Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 04-12-2002, 03:17 AM:

In Arizona, we had a cleaning policy that you couldn't go further forward than the person sitting the furthest back. So if someone was sitting in the last row, you didn't clean. If they were in the middle, you could clean the back half *quietly*. But even so, you still had to stay close enough to the aisle and doors to thank everyone for "comming out and visiting us today."

Back on topic though: At the single screen art theater I worked at, our wall sconces were actually five different circuits, each a different color, each controlled seperately. Each sconce had about seven of each color bulb in it. It was really cool, i'll try and get a photo to post. Anyway, At full bright, the yellow and white bulbs were on. At half, the red and yellow, and "presentation" was blue and green. When the credits rolled, green and yellow, and then back to yellow/white. It worked extremely well, and always got "oooh-ahhhh's" from the crowd.

-Adam

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 04-12-2002, 04:20 AM:

It seems strange that some mix the amount of credits played before and after the meat of the movie ,You know that when you go to a 007 movie that you are going to get the opening scene with the gun being fired at the audience then the opening set up for the movie then the theme music with lots of the credits there , this seemed to be the way most movies started ,now we get hardly any credits at the start and about 10 to 15 min at the end , to me the theme music at the start with the credits set the scene for the whole movie , when I saw "Lost in Space" I never felt that the movie started at all ,we just got a big splash of Silvery Title , what do you think?

Posted by Thomas Hauerslev (Member # 566) on 04-12-2002, 04:58 AM:

Isn't it "Superman" that carries the world record for lenghty end titles; 11 minutes!!!!

I think the speediest credit scroll is in one of the "Cheech & Chong" movies. Maybe it was "Still Smoking", there's a film within the film and credits go up so fast you can't see any of it except white lines just speeding up.

Main titles for "The Shining" are blue and goes from top to bottom. In "M.A.S.H." and "Farenheit 451" they are spoken. Saul Bass' "West Side Story" end-credits are beautiful in Super Panavision 70.

For those of you who haven't had the experience, it's a nice feeling to see your name on the credit scroll.

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Cheers, Thomas
www.in70mm.com - The 70mm Newsletter

www.dp70.com|www.70mm.dk|www.hauerslev.com|http: //hjem.get2net.dk/in70mm

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 04-12-2002, 05:40 AM:

End credits need to be either condensed or livened up , maybe some colour or design the titles in artistic ways, i'm not suprised that people do a runner as the titles hit the screen!.
i do agree that there should be enough light to exit safely, i only ever leave the lights down if the credits have bright scenes in them, which gives them more light than it would if the screen was black and my house lights on low!. i do think that we should give them a few seconds atleast before the lights raise!.
i find that the most common thing they stay for is for the song list on the soundtrack , i guess thats why its normally at the end , 10 mins of torture just to know what that damm song was!

Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 04-12-2002, 11:56 AM:

I agree that the opening credits can set the mood for the movie and that, without them, the movie seems rushed. What I hate, though, is when it seems as though ALL of the credits are at the beginning. Like in the Nineth Gate or Shadow of the Vampire. I was looking at my watch three minutes into the movie and it hadn't even started! At least if the credits are at the end, it doesn't seem like as much as an imposition on those moviewatchers who don't care.

Maybe we could add "Best opening or closing title sequence" to the Film-Tech awards.

-Adam

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-12-2002, 12:44 PM:

"Maybe we could add "Best opening or closing title sequence" to the Film-Tech awards"

A nomination for best (most effective) opening credits: Se7en. This includes not just the title design but Howard Shore's musical score that accompanied the titles.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-12-2002, 06:24 PM:

I've seen several movies where the end credits were the best part of the entire film! (But I also watch the "Turtle" sides on laserdiscs, so what the hell do it know!)

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-12-2002, 06:27 PM:

This isn't easy for me, we've been together a long time, but I've found someone else, OK? I'm in love. Don't look at me like that! We can still be friends, we just can't- no, NO! OK! Just one time!

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 04-13-2002, 12:13 AM:

Our house lights come up to half at the beginning of the credits. We do not begin cleaning, however, until the last patron exits the auditorium. Doing otherwise is simply rude. The remaining patrons feel like they're holding you back from doing they're job and feel rushed to leave. Just wait patiently in the hallway, with one guy standing in back, to signal the others when the coast is clear.

By the way - the manager that scheduled that 6 minute intermission ought to be shot. 30 is the absolute minimum to allow for efficient cleaning and seating.

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 04-13-2002, 09:57 AM:

Based on some of the movies I've seen recently it's basically "wing it".

Death to Smoochy: When the screen goes black after the ice dance at the end, just as the song "Higher and Higher" by Jackie Wilson fades out. The AMC Hamilton put the lights-up cue at the start of the ice dance. Not distracting that way but easy to notice.

Monsoon Wedding: When the screen goes black before the end credits/wedding ceremony start. Otherwise it'll distract.

Gosford Park: The credit roll starts while the camera pans the countryside. Ideally you should wait until all the credits are done. The AMC Hamilton placed the lights-up cue at the start of the end credits -- and that tended to distract.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-13-2002, 11:37 AM:

I agree that for safety reasons, the lights should come up partly during the credits. That is probablly why it is our company policy to do so. But I don't raise the lights if there are outakes or other scenes during the credits. I wait until they fade to black. But if it's just a matter of the credits being shown over some backround pictures, I'll probablly bring the lights up to 50% when the credits start.

Michael Barry said: "John Wilson's new procedure(tm) is to cue the print at the very start of the credits, then set a delay time on the automation for however long we like until we want the lights to come up. This delay time can be determined with a stopwatch during the first screening. This also has the benefit of standardising print makeup, and allows 'fine tuning' of 'lights up' without touching the cue on the print. Absolutely brilliant, methinks!"

Brilliant, indeed. Whay type of automation?

Michale also said: "One of the chains I used to work for issued a memo from head office stating that house light are to go to full the moment the first credit hits the screen. Imagine how beautifully that would work for something like 'Taxi Driver' or 'Five Easy Pieces' or the aforementioned 'Royal Tenenbaums'."

Was this by any chance AMC? I've only seen one movie at AMC, but that's exactly what happened, and it was *extremely* anoying! The lights didn't even fade up, they just came full on right away! Grrrr....

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 04-14-2002, 08:40 AM:

Hi Ken,

Congrats about your job!

The automation we use is the Multimation III, which is Windows based software that communicates directly with AMX Axcess(tm) automation hardware. Perhaps John and I should work on a product review! The Christie/Pennywise unit that is reviewed on this site has a similar 'delay' capability that allows a film cue to be read but a delay to kick in prior to the intended function being performed (in this case, lights up). I'm not sure how long a delay can be set in those units, but the principle is the same. Often Kinoton consoles come with this unit so you might be able to use the same technique at your new job.

The chain that I referred to is Greater Union, which I think only exists in Australia and perhaps a handful of other territories (they are expanding now). I would think that many chains would adopt that policy, however.

Does your new location use Filmguard? If not, get some!

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-14-2002, 11:27 AM:

Michael,

Only our projectors are Kinoton. Our consols and automation are Big Sky. Out of curiousity, do you know if that delay can be done with the Strong CNA 150 or 200?

We have a media cleaner. I'm going to ask about Film Guard once I start working there.

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 04-14-2002, 11:37 AM:

Hi Ken,

I'm not familiar with the strong automation units, but Pat Moore will most likely have the answer.

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 04-14-2002, 11:51 AM:

I remember seeing "Greatest Story Ever Told" at the CINERAMA on the Giant Curved screen

and recall the Credits were sooooo long that I was wishing for them to end

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A KIWI eats,roots & Leaves.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-14-2002, 12:06 PM:

If I made a movie I would have a scene that looks like it could be the ending then roll the credits, then afterwards have the movie continue for another good 40 minutes.

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 04-14-2002, 01:14 PM:

Actually you could have done that in "True Lies" just after the Nuke went off ,roll the credits then carry on after that....

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A KIWI eats,roots & Leaves.

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 04-14-2002, 03:14 PM:

I think that, in general, the house lights should be raised to a pre-set level once the background on the credits fades to black.

Of course, it depends a lot on the picture and venue. I have noticed on Woody Allen films, for example, that most if not all of the audience tends to stay until the last credit.

One runs the risk of strangulation by the director if one brings up ANY lights during the credits at the Toronto Film Festival. These performances, of course are run manually without automation.

Using CPA-10 automations, I used to set the timer so that the house lights came up to pre-set on the credit lights cue and then up full at 1:30 min. after that.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-14-2002, 04:53 PM:

We are using the Christie CA-21 Automation units. The cue is placed about 5-feet before the moment that the house lights should be at half. This is to account for the fader slew setting.

The point of cue insertion is variable...some credit sequences (like the ones in Disney/Pixar movies) have outtakes and some (like those in WILD THINGS) occur with additional scenes still playing. Patrons who were moved by tear-jerker endings would probably appreciate it if we wait a few extra moments before raising house lights. It's a matter of taste and there really are no hard-and-fast rules.

Still, the issue of safety inevitably presents itself and, at some point early in the credits, the lights simply must raise to at least half. We have our automations set up to raise lights to "House Half" upon receiving the credits cue, and then there is a one minute delay before raising all the way to "House Full." By this point, there is nobody in the auditorium...unless the crowd is so large that they are *still exiting*...but the point is that only a few people read credits here and those few who read them have never complained that we raise the lights during the credit roll. In any event, their desire to read credits is outweighed by our need to allow two hundred and fifty people to exit safely (especially when one considers that raising the lights does not render the credits illegible).

Cleaning should be forbidden if patrons are reading credits. If the room is empty, then the ushers should certainly go ahead and start cleaning early.

But the credits are part of the movie and they must be played. It's the same as starting a show with nobody in the auditorium. Just because nobody is there, doesn't mean we're off the hook and don't have to run the show. Someone might come ten minutes late...similarly, a viewer might come back into the room to read those music credits that are always near the end.

A competing cineplex cuts the credits off...you couldn't read the credits even if you wanted to. They also don't play the opening studio logos. And these aren't "Bid Prints" either...I've checked. I know their "chief projectionist" personally. We used to work together and he's always had a distaste for showing credits...especially on the last show of the day. The lights come up about a minute before the final fade, the credits play for about another minute and then...whoosh...they're gone and the screen goes white.

Say whatever you like about us playing credits with the lights all the way up...and say what you might about us playing trailers with the lights at half. What we're doing is certainly a compromise...but what those other guys are doing is poor showmanship due to sheer laziness. Not to mention that it probably constitutes a breach (sp?) of contract. That's DEFINITELY NOT "film done right."

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And, hey! Let's be careful out there.

~Manny.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-15-2002, 03:37 AM:

Being an arthouse purist I would insist on no houselights at all during the credits. They're part of the film, and if people want to watch them they should be allowed to do so in the same conditions that they saw the rest of the movie. I don't always sit through credit runs, but I do sit through some, especially if I like the music or want to find out a specific piece of information, e.g. where the location scenes were filmed.

The health and safety argument - that 90% of the audience will walk out during the credits and so the lighting is necessary for them to get out in safety - is a flawed one. After all, if there is a power failure in the middle of a performance, perhaps due to a fire, then 100% of the audience will need to get out without any help from the houselights. If the primary maintained (i.e. battery powered) lighting is not bright enough for someone with average sight to see their way out, then that theatre is a serious safety risk. Furthermore, by leaving the houselights out during credits you are constantly testing the PMLs and ensuring that they are sufficient to allow a house full of customers to leave in safety.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-15-2002, 10:53 AM:

When we played "We Were Soldiers," we had a used print. Somebody had put a cue at the beginning of the part where the casualties were listed. Talk about ruining the emotional end of the movie! (Yes, luckily I caught this and removed it.)

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-15-2002, 12:23 PM:

Does anyone know if that delay timer can be done with Big Sky automation?

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 04-16-2002, 12:38 AM:

From what I have seen of the Big Sky manual, Ken, I don't see any easy way to do it.

However, if you buy your local service technician a beer or two, he might be able to provide you with a second sensor, which could be used to pick up cues from the edge of the film, (along the sprocket holes).

This sensor could be independantly wired to pulse whatever function you wanted to happen. (P.S. I have found old garbage Scope aperture plates can be bent and mangled into excellent emergency sensor brackets).

Depending on the current and voltage this sensor would be required to drive, an interface relay may be required.

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 04-16-2002, 06:43 PM:

It Hurts My Feelings When You Leave Before The Credits Are Done

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-16-2002, 08:01 PM:

That poor woman must be an emotional wreck.

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 04-16-2002, 08:10 PM:

Well she would of killed the owner of one cinema owner in Auckland as he (name with-held) used to cut the End credits all together ,until customers complained and he was forced by the distributors to finish all the credits or have no films to show

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A KIWI eats,roots & Leaves.

Posted by Michael Swarbrick (Member # 1108) on 04-16-2002, 08:16 PM:

At my cinema we don't put any house lights on until the curtains close after the last studio credit on screen (or until every customer has left the auditorium). Also, there' a chance that we might have the director or other crew member sneakily watching the presentation, and we wouldn't want to piss them off!

If the film is really busy (like 1000+ customers in our main screen), then our GM might request that we have 'Credit' lights on during the ads and trailers only. But our lights aren't designed too well, and they can easily shine on the screen, so we don't do that often. Plus, our contract with our advertisers states that the ads must be played 'in the dark' (and at Dolby level 7, yeah right!).

I will admit though that at my last cinema, I sometimes put the house lights on towards the end of the end credits if it was the last show, but only if I didn't have any time and my taxi was coming soon! But I didn't put on any lights that would shine onto the screen, and I don't do that anymore.

I agree that if your standard 'emergency lights' aren't enough for people to leave safely during credits, the film, or an actual emergency, then you shouldn't have the public in your building anyway.

As for cleaning the screen during the credits, I never used to clean or turn on the cleaners lights until everyone had passed me by at the exit. Unfortunately I've noticed not every usher today is so polite. In just 2 years I've been in booth, I've had a moan at many an usher for turning cleaners lights on before the curtains have even closed! It can bloody hurt your eyes if bright halogen lights come on when you've been in the dark for 2 hours!

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Michael Swarbrick
Projectionist, Empire Leicester Square

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-17-2002, 05:33 AM:

At one place I worked there was an usher who was so bad about putting the cleaners' lights on during credits (regardless of whether customers were still in the auditorium or not) that in the end I had to switch them off at the breaker in the projection box in order to prevent a deluge of complaints from customers. She even did it once at the credits of The Big Sleep - a 1946 film which has nothing but a 30-second cast list at the end! No sooner had 'The End' appeared on the screen than she'd lit up the room like Wembley Stadium during a floodlit match!

None of the managers wanted to tackle her about it becuase she'd cause a scene and complain that we were victimising her.