Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Big Sky film cleaner

This is topic Big Sky film cleaner in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-25-2002, 07:08 PM:

Anybody have any info on Big Sky Formula 141? Is it supposed to be like Film Guard, or Xecote, or something else? We have a whole case of it, and one of the projectionists looked at it and assumed it was generic Xecote. Which brings me to another point: What exactly is Xecote? I've heard of it, but that's about it. thx.

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-25-2002, 08:17 PM:

I compared the chemical listings on the bottles at some point. Both XeKote (well, XeKote II) and Formula 141 have the same two ingredients: something like 2,2-dichloroethane dissolved in paraffinic oil. (Don't have a bottle right in front of me.)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-25-2002, 08:21 PM:

It's most certainly nothing like FilmGuard.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-25-2002, 10:23 PM:

Well, if you use FilmGuard you probably won't NEED Formula 141!

If you have a bunch of it on hand, don't despair... The stuff is good for removing the gum from the bottom of your theatre seats.

Posted by Gregory N. Jones (Member # 805) on 04-26-2002, 09:22 AM:

Christopher is correct in that Big Sky's Formula 141B is the EXACT formula(surprise!)as XEKOTEII - 1,1-dichloro-1-fluoroethane. They use the number 141B because that's the chemical number the company that makes it uses. Both of these products are used to clean and lubricate film gates, pad rollers, transport rollers and shafts.

There is an ongoing debate on who's product is better, FilmGuard or XEKOTEII and I have heard both sides of the debate. I would like to say XEKOTEII but I have no experience with FilmGuard so I can't judge.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 04-26-2002, 09:25 AM:

If anyone needs me, I'll be hiding under my desk.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-26-2002, 09:38 AM:

Well, I havn't used filmguard either but not by my choice. You can not use xekote or formula 141 the same way as Filmguard. Now I am going to go hide in the closet before things start flying around in here.

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 04-26-2002, 09:50 AM:

How many registered people want me to be "The Judge".

Gee, this could be a whole new career.

Note to Brad: You can use that picture of Gregg at Showest to put under his name.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-26-2002, 10:30 AM:

Xecote and Filmguard are completely different products.

The only one that I've used on film has been Filmguard; I have been very happy with with the results. FG works.

Xecote is fine for cleaning gate bands and splicing-tape goo, but I wouldn't use it directly on film.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-26-2002, 11:29 AM:

What's flying? No need for that. Ken, just try it (on a print you know will not last long) and then report back. It won't take you long to find the superior cleaner. Darryl, want to try it? Just don't go mixing that other stuff with FilmGuard. With all of the double and triple prints of movies about to open, this should be very easy for you to see the difference. Same movie, same lab, same film stock, same projectionists, yet one print will look substantially better.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-26-2002, 11:30 AM:

So if Xecote is for cleaning your projector, not your film, why not just use alchohol??? What's so special about Xecote?

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-26-2002, 11:51 AM:

With the advent of Film-Guard, nothing is really useful about XeKote/Formula 141 IMHO. XeKote/141 evaporate far too quickly to be used in conjunction with a media cleaner; you'll have to wipe down the side of a print to lubricate it. Besides being a sloppy process, using XeKote/141 in this way will result in a waxy buildup of crud on all your rollers (which is kind of fascinating if you have the time and energy to clean it off). If you can get Film-Guard, there's no reason to buy any other oil-based lubricant (for the film that is).

Posted by Gregory N. Jones (Member # 805) on 04-26-2002, 12:06 PM:

Ken, our original lubricant, XEKOTE, was 1,1,1, Trichloroethane which worked very well on film but since the government likes to ban everything it has been nixed. So, the company we get this from came up with this replacement after playing around with a bunch of different solutions. So to answer your question, there really isn't anything special with this formula, only that it was the closest thing to the original we could find.
With all this talk about FilmGuard, I would like to know what is in it? Can anyone forward an MSDS sheet on it?

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 04-26-2002, 12:22 PM:

"With all this talk about FilmGuard, I would like to know what is in it? Can anyone forward an MSDS sheet on it?"

Rumor has it, film-guard is based on a secret Bob Maar martini formula.

Pardon me while I install double firewalls, five anti-viruses, and hide under the bed for a few days.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-26-2002, 12:28 PM:

Jerry said: "Rumor has it, film-guard is based on a secret Bob Maar martini formula."

You've got them mixed up. Since Nuemade sells XeCote, their new formula is the one based on President Bob's secret martini formula.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-26-2002, 12:52 PM:

For those who want to buy bulk, Kodak's website has a list of solvents suitable for film cleaning, along with the pros and cons of each:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/hse/solvent.shtml

Because there are so many proprietary film cleaners and film treatments, Kodak does not make specific recommendations. Recommendations of satisfied users and lack of reported problems are probably the best guide.

Here are guidelines for "hand cleaning" with a quick-evaporating film cleaning solvent:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/hand2.shtml#cleaning

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-26-2002, 01:05 PM:

Before I was a test theater for Filmguard I once used Renovex to clean a very dirty print. After the cleaning all the dirt was GONE. But boy did it take FOREVER since you can't clean it with a media cleaner, and the dirt came back after a week or two with our then very abrasive projectors. Also you will supposedly die or something after using Renovex. I haven't died yet, but I probably will someday in the future.

I'm very happy with Filmguard, and not just 'cause I named the product (original name was Liquid Death for all you paranoid people out there) and receive 110% of the profits. Even just one pass of FG helps out tremendously vs if you never applied it at all.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-26-2002, 01:58 PM:

Christopher,

I would say that if someone wants to compare cleaning/lubricating effectiveness that they should perform the tests fairly.

If you want to apply FG to the print, use a media cleaner. For applying XeKote, also use a media cleaner, but beware you will have to go to the cleaner every so often to resoak the pads while the movie is running.

If you want to wipe the edges of the print, not to clean, but to act as a lubricant, do so with both products. Giving one product an advantage over the other would not be a fair comparison (even though the advantage would be on FG's side either way).

(Liquid Death? Joe, I think you're going to scare some people who don't know you are joking.)

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-26-2002, 03:24 PM:

I have indeed tried soaking media rolls in XeKote/141 and running film through them... it evaporates so quickly, and the idea of resoaking them every 5 minutes is so impractical, that I didn't think it was worth trying to make it work. Hence for all practical purposes you can't compare XeKote/141 to Film-Guard, with a media cleaner.

And yes, I didn't specifically mention that I have also wiped down prints with Film-Guard as compared to XeKote/141. Unless my application technique improved drastically between my early-on attempts with XeKote and my later attempts with Film-Guard, there was no contest.

Anyway, it's true that for a pure product comparison you would want the usage conditions to be identical, but in terms of practical effectiveness a product certainly gains points for ease of use. Even if XeKote/141 were 10 times the cleaner and lubricant that Film-Guard is, which it's not, the difficulty of applying it to the film evenly would lower its overall value.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 04-28-2002, 01:02 AM:

The difference between Film Guard and Xecote...

Film Guard = excellent film presentation and preservation...

Xecote = "hey, why is my bottle of xecote evaporating?"

Dave