Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinotone ST200 Platter

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-26-2002, 08:35 AM:

Returning film goes around the roller at lower left up to one of the rollers jutting out in the foreground and then has plenty of room for a gentle 90 degree twist to one of the vertical axis rollers in the back ground then to a control arm roller (similar to Christie) not visible in the background. So... how does one take up on the lower deck given that there are rollers in the immediate foreground for middle and top only? I'm told that even the domestic seller is stumped.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-26-2002, 09:27 AM:

Well, looking closely at the picture and what you are saying. I would say that instead of the film going on the left side of that lower roller to one of the 90 degree rollers jutting out. It would go on the right of it and straight back with a hard twist to the roller going to the bottom platter.

Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 04-26-2002, 10:06 AM:

Steve,

The ST-200's that we have at work are exactly the same as the one shown at this link:
http://www.kinoton.com/iprodukte.htm

From that link, click 'Cinema Products', then 'Non-Rewind Systems', for a photo of all models.

Actually, it looks more like the ST-270, the 35/70MM equivalent. The difference is that those extension arms are present in the 35/70 version to facilitate more gentle twists for 70MM operation.

Either way, going by the method that the ones we have at work take up to the bottom plate, you don't thread to the bottom-left return roller the way you do to go to the middle or top plates. Instead, you simply bypass it and go directly to the perpendicular roller (the one directly corresponding to the lower plate) just behind it. From there, you simply go to the control arm roller on the lower plate then wrap the film to the centre ring to take up counter-clockwise as per usual. I hope that description makes sense.

When you take up to the lower plate, the film barely twists at all. From the lower gimbled magazine under the projector, all the film has to do is become perpendicular - a 45 degree twist at best, so it's suitable for 70MM operation. Obviously, the height of the projector's lower gimbled magazine roller must be similar with the take-up rollers on the lower plate of the platter for this to function. It's only when the film must travel to the middle or top plates that the extension arms come into play for a 'Z' shaped take up pattern. (Top plate take-up would go: lower roller, across to middle extension, then up to top extension, then twist to top roller next to column, then control arm, then centre ring.)

My description applies to the platter being on the operator side of the projector. If the platter is on the other side of the projector, then the film simply wraps around that lower perpendicular roller next to the main column from the other side, goes to the control arm then back around to the centre ring for a 'Z' pattern (viewed from the top). The degree of film twisting is identical.

John Wilson comes back next week with his digital camera so we can take pictures of film returning to the lower plates if you like. We have examples of both operator and non-operator paths.

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 04-26-2002, 06:41 PM:

Steve,

If you go to http://www.blsi.com/kinoton/technical.htm and look at Tech Note # 01-5 you will find a link to a image of exactly how to thread that deck on that platter.

I'm a lot of things, but, at least in this case, I'm not stumped.

-Larry

------------------
Larry Shaw
Boston Light & Sound, Inc.
North American Distributor of Kinoton GmbH
290 North Beacon Street
Boston, MA 02135-1990
Tel: 617-787-3131 x104 Fax: 617-787-4257
E-Mail: larry@blsi.com
Web site: http://www.blsi.com/kinoton

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-26-2002, 11:35 PM:

Ok, overall I am impressed with the Kinoton platter, but this is one of the major grips I have about it. I brought this point up at ShoWest and still see no logical reason for the way Kinoton has designed this.

Even though I am not a fan of turning the film upwards to run onto the deck, I see no reason why to take up on the bottom platter the lower magazine roller on the projector HAS to be the same height off of the ground. I find this quite foolish. If Kinoton would just add one more of those "arms" like is on the top two decks and another roller at the base of the tree, the problem would be solved.

Also, please do consider making the exit and enter roller on the platter adjustable. I hate having to pivot the platter around so that it "points" to the projector. This is just not possible in some booths.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-27-2002, 03:17 AM:

Indeed, we considered the solution shown in the photos as one possibility but immediately dismissed it as absurd to think that a manufacturer would design a platter that could only work with a lower projector arm roller of one height and one height only. The immediate application, BTW, is with a AAII.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-27-2002, 10:53 AM:

you know I see a modification that could be done by doing the following. The roller that is used for bringing the film up and over to the roller that extends out from the platter. That one could be lowered about 4 or 5 inches and another extention bar drilled into the post that is the same size as the other two add a roller to that and it will operate the same as if it was going to the top or middle.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-29-2002, 07:14 AM:

The good aspects of the machine are awesome such as the smoothness of operation and the makeup table that lets you change direction from makeup to breakdown with the flip of a switch. The bad aspects of the machine defy explanation especially since a better design is so obvious (make the bottom deck take-up just like the others by adding a roller on an extension of that bracket; making the to/from rollers either swivel or adjust & lock). The MUT also has some issues as regards roller height adjustment. Also, 35mm tends to walk out of its path in the dual gauge rollers.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-29-2002, 07:28 AM:

Actually all you need to do is add a roller on the wall between the projector and the platter if it can't align directly (been there and done that) Some of the early AW1's didn't have adjustable rollers either.
I have never had any major complaints with the kinoton platters

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 03:00 PM:

Yes another roller is certainly an option, but we shouldn't have to mess with that. Besides, if another roller must be added to get the film to the projector, you just KNOW there will be someone who will thread it bypassing the *extra* roller and scratch the film as it drags over the Kinoton roller. It's just not a very user friendly design as no two booths are laid out the same.

Steve, the Christie AW3 platter can switch from makeup to breakdown mode with the flip of a switch too.

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 04-29-2002, 03:44 PM:

The reasoning behind the roller design is less rollers is better. Every roller adds drag, and a potential for damage from misthreading. Additionally, adjustable input and output rollers can be (and in my experience often are) misadjusted either by poor installers or incompetent/careless operators so as to damage film. I've also seen a number of setups with the film dragging across the floor because of low input roller position and excessive projector-to-platter distance. Further, the thinking is that if additional rollers are sometimes needed to correct height and/or position variences they are best installed in fixed positions by competent installers who can carefully position them to allow sufficent distances for the twists required. Kinoton's main idea is quality presentation, and sometimes ease of installation takes the back seat I'm afraid.

Few people have complained about this issue, however if customers want something we try to accomadate the request. What I'm thinking about now is having additional holes put in the column to accept a "input & output swivel roller kit" that could be ordered by those that want it.

Of course I'd be happy to hear any comments.

-Larry

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 04:16 PM:

A swivel roller kit would certainly work nicely for me. I think you may be misunderstanding the complaint here though. Ease of installation isn't really the issue. Many theaters like to turn the platters at an angle to make access for threading easier. The Kinoton platter does not allow for this, unless you set up extra rollers. Check out the picture below, as this is the most common setup I see that is done with ease and convenience of threading in mind by the installing engineer.

Note how this gains better access to the film cleaner mount (which Kinotons should have, but don't) as well as access to the back of the tree (most particularly useful with Strongs, SPECOs and any platter with an "elevator" on the back of the tree) for the projectionists to be able to easily walk around the platter during threading. (Whoever instaled the Kinoton platter in the picture Steve posted at the top of this thread was either completely out of room or had no thought process put into what a major pain threading would be with the platter so close to the sound rack.)

I still fail to understand why having the receiving roller from the projector set to the height it is at is beneficial. If the platter to projector distance is very great, that makes the lower magazine roller have to be even higher, which means the film must make more of a twist over a smaller distance. Plus, your *better* operators out there do not thread through the lower magazine roller when initially lacing the platter. They make a triangle like this, which absolutely prevents the film from hitting the floor. See next pictures.

Just check out Christie, SPECO and Strong platters (to name a few) to see what I mean when you design a swivel roller kit. It will use less rollers, will not be so confusing to some of these *operators* out there and will be an improvement to the overall design of the platter. I was quite impressed with the payout design of the Kinoton platter that I saw at ShoWest, but these items would prevent me from ever recommending one.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-29-2002, 06:09 PM:

Well if you want to angle the post do the way I do most instals anyway I put the rollers on the wall so that the reel arem is clear for a reel to go on anyway. The film comes from the platter and angles down to the top of the machine and exiting it goes on an angle to the front wall and back to the platter. I know Brad has mentioned he doesn't like having angled input output rollers but I have found that there is less twisting in a short distance involved.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 06:16 PM:

With a Kinoton, that still wouldn't work, as the film would be exiting the platter toward the rear of the lamphouse.

My reasoning for disliking angled magazine rollers is that it wears out the leader 3 times as fast, which isn't well thought out in terms of the theater's expense in purchasing new leaders more frequently. Plus angled rollers do not easily permit speed winding of the film when needed. For theaters that run platter and reel to reel, there is little option though.

If you look at the picture above, you will notice the keeper roller was removed from the upper magazine roller. This was done because for some oddball reason the open side of the keeper was toward the lamphouse, making threading an extra pain. By having the rollers straight up and down, the keeper became unnecessary and could be removed...so long as gravity continued to function, of course.

Below is a picture of a very common, but poorly thought out alignment of the upper magazine roller. Sure this setup runs fine, but having the roller aligned at an angle like this kills the life of the leader as it is dragged over the flange of the roller during threading. (Notice two pictures above how the film enters and exits the roller without dragging over either flange during threading.)

The lower magazine roller doesn't matter how it is angled.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-29-2002, 06:20 PM:

I have used a single angled roller on the front wall on the take up side back to a offset 2 deck Kinoton platter in several locations with no problems

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 06:23 PM:

Gordon, are you referring to the takeup? I was speaking specifically about the payout rollers being unable to be turned toward the projector when the platter is set up in this manner.

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 04-29-2002, 06:33 PM:

Brad,

Regarding the angling of the platter (which I do understand as I've installed hundreds of non-Kinoton platters) it's not really required in the 35mm 3-deck Kinotons as all threading is done from the location about where the film cleaner is on the AW-35. There's just nothing to do on the other side. With the 5-deck 35mm or 35/70 platters usually a set of front wall rollers accomplishes anything that's needed to get the platter away from the wall. But again I hope to have the kit mentioned in the previous post available soon, even though Steve G. told me platters were almost dead anyway.

Regarding the cleaner shown in that beautiful installation, we use the Kinetronic or PTR cleaners mounted on the projector. I'm not sure I see a great advantage to the platter mounted cleaners, but maybe thats just because I've come up and bonked my head on a few over the years.

And as far as the height of the input roller,

1. It seems most of the operators these days are *worse*, and might not know what a triangle is.
2. When I mentioned film dragging on the floor, sadly, I didn't mean during threading, I meant the whole length of the print being dragged over the floor each showing.
3. When you get as old as me, that bottom roller looks awful far down!

-Larry

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-29-2002, 06:36 PM:

Larry as long as the roller is no lower than to required to get a beer out of the case on the floor it shouldn't be a problem

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-29-2002, 06:56 PM:

Re Brad's comment about the position of the platter in the original picture: That was just a temporary location for a two shows that were to run plattered, one 70mm, one 35mm. Otherwise it's a reel to reel house. However, now it looks like the Kinotone is staying so perhaps it will go to the left of Machine 1. But actually it never seemed in the way where it is now and we do prefer Machine 2 for such special shows where plattering is indicated rather than set up two both machines for whatever special need. But it's not like it can't be moved as needed.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 07:06 PM:

Trying to work with a cleaner that is projector mounted, especially if it is atop other penthouses is a pain. I have yet to find a PTR or Kinetronic cleaner that worked well in a typical booth. Those who say they do, have not done direct comparisons and know how good their prints COULD look. IMHO these are best left for labs and specially controlled environments, like special venue. For regular 35mm in-house print cleaning, the media cleaner simply can not be beat, as has been noted more than enough times throughout these pages by projectionists around the world. Drilling and tapping the two extra mounting holes in the side of the tree would not jack up the cost of the platter by more than a buck and would offer your customers the best solution. According to Steve, Kinoton is about being the best, right?

Just please don't put the film cleaner mount at the top of the tree like Big Sky did!!!

1. It seems most of the operators these days are *worse*, and might not know what a triangle is.

Of course operators today are not as good overall as the operators of yesterday, but it is much quicker and easier to not thread that lower magazine roller, so once the newbies are shown, I've never had one not follow the recommendation. The operators of yesterday had training, why can't we give today's operators the proper training?

2. When I mentioned film dragging on the floor, sadly, I didn't mean during threading, I meant the whole length of the print being dragged over the floor each showing.

If the platter is THAT far away, then a jumper roller should be used. However, I've worked with Christie and SPECO platters that were 20-25 feet away from the projector and neither of them had any problem. That sounds like an installation error.

3. When you get as old as me, that bottom roller looks awful far down!

When you are as short as me, that bottom roller is still far down, but is still the best approach.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-27-2003, 10:30 PM:

With a little welding, grinding, drilling, and painting you too can have a proper Kinotone platter.