This is topic Cut it out or leave it in? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 04-26-2002, 08:10 PM:
Scenario:You are biulding up a print and find a lab splice in reel 3.
A few feet down, you find 10 frames of discolored film.
In reel 6, you have another lab splice followed by 12 frames of discolored film, and later on in the same reel, you have yet another lab splice with 31 frames of discolored film.
I cut all of these frames out and ordered new reels, but The question I had was is it more distracting to see the discoloration for up to a second and a half each time or to have a jump in the picture and sound at three diferent points in the film?
The reels are going to be replaced either way, so which would you prefer to see and which would you choose to do?
Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 04-26-2002, 08:36 PM:
My opimionfirst question
What sound formatt will the film be played in?
In other words, how will the discoloured frames affect the soundtrack?
Will their be be dropp out to am analog sound formatt?
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-26-2002, 08:36 PM:
Good question. Maybe you draw the line at, say, 1/2 second or 12 frames. If it's 12 frames or more of discoloration, that's too much to remove without creating a jump that's just as distracting as the discoloration, so you leave it. If it's fewer than 12 frames, you cut it out and most likely nobody will notice.If there is going to be a dropout to analog sound (assuming digital), that can be as distracting as anything else and in that case I would say leave in the discolored frames if it preserves the digital playback; or remove the discolored frames if the digital soundtrack is hosed. I find audio dropouts to be as distracting as momentary image problems, maybe more distracting, unless the SR playback is very well calibrated so that it sounds its best.
Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 04-26-2002, 08:59 PM:
The film in question is LIFE OR SOMETHING LIKE IT which has SRD and DTS but no SDDS.
Since we have no SRD or DTS, we are playing it in analog.
The 10 frame clip had a slight purple discoloration on the right hand side of the picture.
The 12 frame clip was blue and a little darker that the previous clip but did not seem to have much affect on the digital soundtracks, but might have affected the alnalog soundtrack due to the discoloration (I dont know how that works).
The 31 frame clip was a light purple that may not have affcted the sound and if was left in, may not have been noticed on screen, but I didnt think about it until after these clips had been cut out.
Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 04-26-2002, 09:41 PM:
If the image problems were "slight" as described. I probably would have left them in. If I was in the audience, I proably would have noticed the jump in the image as well as the sound. I certainly would have ordered the replacement reels, but why add any additional discontinuity? I think the film-savvy viewer (i.e. David Stambaugh) would recognize the discoloration as a lab error, while seeing missing footage as film removed due to projectionist inflicted damage. (What do you think, David?)
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-26-2002, 09:48 PM:
well, whether you cut it out or leave it in. The solution is to order replacement reels. This kind of damage is lab defects and you will not be charged for the replacement. You may have to go through the booking department in order to get a replacement reel or try to get into contact with the film company.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-26-2002, 10:07 PM:
Leave it in. I do remove lab splices, but am loathe to remove more than a couple of frames' worth of a new print. As a viewer, I would rather see discoloration than have a break in continuity.
Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 04-26-2002, 11:02 PM:
Thats what Im thinking ill do next time.
Just leave them in and get the replacements as soon as possible.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-26-2002, 11:48 PM:
My opinion on the matter is that if you have to remove more than one frame, leave it in. The average Joe Customer will probably not care one way or another if the picture tint flashes, but any presentation oriented person will definitely notice more 2 or more frames missing. Plus with no digital, an analog jump will just make it worse. The reels must be replaced any way you look at it, so you mine as well leave them in. That serves two purposes. First if the lab wants the reels back to inspect, the damage will be in tact. Second, it doesn't look like you screwed up in the booth for the shows until your replacement reel arrives, resulting in a loss of footage.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-27-2002, 09:51 AM:
I was invited as a guest to preview Life or Something Like It at another theater. I noticed the same problems you describe, and they did not remove anything. So I wonder if your replacement reel will be any better.There were almost half a dozen (!) missplices that were not removed and highly distracting. If it were me, I would have at least removed these. But there was also some discoloration. You are right that the average person would not have noticed it, but I found it quite distracting. I would not have removed it due to the amount of frames that would be missing, but I certainly would've ordered a new reel. Perhaps they did.
How does a loss of frames affect digital sound? I know with optical, there will be a noticeable jump. But is a digital processor "smart" enough to make some sort of seamless transistion?
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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-27-2002, 10:40 AM:
I doubt the average viewer gives a lab splice or some brief discoloration any thought except maybe "What was that?" and then promptly forgets about it. When I notice a few frames missing, I figure a nasty lab splice was removed. OTOH, when they don't remove the lab splice, I have no way of knowing whether they left it in due to not checking the print carefully when building it up, or laziness, or perhaps they did consider removing it but left it in because there is important dialog occuring there or something.I guess I tend to agree with others who said if it's no more than a couple frames, take it out, otherwise it's better to leave the continuity intact.
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 04-27-2002, 12:36 PM:
James R: That purple is most likely "spillover" developing ink for the SRD track blotching into the picture. John Pytlak can fill you in on that.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-27-2002, 01:21 PM:
I likewise agree with the idea of leaving it in. If customers complain about it, than other action might be in order.
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-27-2002, 03:14 PM:
I've always wondered what the studios would prefer us to do with lab splices.As for passages of discoloration, I have occasionally decided to order replacement reels, based on...
is this movie any good?
is this movie doing solid business?
how long is this print likely to be here?
how noticeable is the irregularity?
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And, hey! Let's be careful out there.
~Manny.
Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 04-27-2002, 05:40 PM:
I think I tend to agree with you guys saying to leave it in.
Like I posted earlier, I think I will do that from now on unless I am told differently.
I will just use the stuff I cut out and saved as an example of what to look for when biulding up and screening a print, along with our collection of lab splices.As far as the replacement reels are concerned, reel 6 looked ok upon inspection, but hasnt run through yet.
Reel 3 on the other hand......
Near the beginning of the reel the picture went completely blank for 81 feet and 11 frames.
since we dont want the customers to look at a blank screen for 51.0833333 seconds, I just cut it out and respliced where the picture came back in.
HAHAHA, just kidding.
I just rewound the film back onto the reel it came on, put it back in the box, and requested another one.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-27-2002, 07:08 PM:
[original dumb-ass comment deleted by author upon further consideration]As a practical matter, Manny's questions seem like reasonable ones to ask when deciding what to do about this problem. In perfect world though, applying the same (high) presentation standards to "Freddy Got Fingered" and "A Beautiful Mind" would be a worthy goal. 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-29-2002, 01:16 PM:
Charles Everett said: "That purple is most likely "spillover" developing ink for the SRD track blotching into the picture. John Pytlak can fill you in on that."No. A blue/cyan/purple discoloration is usually caused by excessive exposure to the darkroom "safelight" illumination. Most commonly seen on leaders or around a lab splice. Often one edge of the film is affected more than the other, depending upon the location and direction of the errant "safe" light in the darkroom.
I agree, if the fogging is obvious in the picture or sound, request a replacement reel, but leave the discolored footage in. In my experience, most audience members will object to missing continuity, but may not notice a few seconds of discoloration. Also, returning the bad reel with the defect intact will help the lab diagnose and hopefully eliminate the problem.
Sound developer splashes (used for the current silver + dye analog tracks) are usually grayish, and localized to where the sound developer splashed/bled into the picture area. The digital tracks do NOT require sound redevelopment, and the new cyan dye analog tracks will eliminate this problem.
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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
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