This is topic Patton dts70 in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 03:24 PM:
In the FITA forum, Steve Kraus listed running Patton in dts70 with a mandatory intermission to change discs. He listed the movie as 10 reels. Now I have no idea how long the movie actually is, but could this not have fit on 3 discs and ran non-stop with a dts6-D player? (This is of course, not taking into account that an intermission might be preferable to the patrons.) I'm wondering why dts did not make three discs such that if you wanted to run it with a dts6-D you could load the 3 discs and forget about it, but if you were to run it with a dts-6 you could load up disc A and B and run to your intermission, then exchange disc A for disc C for the second half.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-29-2002, 03:36 PM:
IMDB says the running time for the 1970 release was 170 mins. The DVD says 171 mins.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 03:40 PM:
If that is correct, I see no reason why it would not have fit on 2 discs.
Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 04-29-2002, 03:42 PM:
I remember running it when it was first released. It had 10 reels then, with the intermission at the end of Reel #6. Of course, I ran a 35mm print with mag sound. The 170 minute running time sounds correct, as we had shows scheduled at 1,4,7 & 10. Sometimes the manager would call up and ask to cut out the intermission. There was five minutes of callback music on Reel #7.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-29-2002, 03:43 PM:
Does DTS always use the same level of compression? Or could they reduce the compression if they wanted to (requiring more discs)? [speculation]Maybe since it's special-venue they decided to use less compression[/speculation].Paging Karen Hultgren! 
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 04-29-2002, 04:55 PM:
The compression is never changed from disc to disc or film to film. This is true for feature films released to cinemas.The reason that PATTON was released on three discs is because the studio wanted to mandate an intermission. Partly to give the audience a break and also to ensure that customers that had DTS-6 (2-drive) units could also play the film. During intermission, the projectionist simply had to take out the 1st set of discs, load the 3rd disc alone, and then cycle power.
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 05:05 PM:
But it *could* have fit on 2 discs, right? Is there anything in the discs that would prevent someone from running it straight through on a 3 drawer unit? (Like perhaps treating the C disc as a "single disc feature"?)
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-29-2002, 05:46 PM:
Surely given the equal (mild) compression as Karen has described it six channel sound will take up more space for a given running time than the normal five channel sound. Patton is 171 minutes including a brief entre'acte on the head of R7.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-29-2002, 06:01 PM:
If it is on the DTS 6D or DTS 6 it is only 5.1 channels not six and Karen will correct me if I am wrong but I don't think the 3rd disk is supportable as more of the feature. That is what one of the Bollywood sound people told me as why they had to run disk 1/2 intermission and then disk3
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-29-2002, 06:14 PM:
Titanic was 190-odd minutes and came on two disks. Maybe there's an issue with reel breaks, since, as far as I know, each file on the disk contains one full reel's worth of sound. Maybe there's some limitation on splitting reels into two or more separate files which necessitated the use of three disks. Or maybe it's a 5.1 vs. 6 channel issue, as Gordon pointed out.
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 04-29-2002, 06:15 PM:
Karen,I didn't understand...
Doesn't the DTS6D can handle three movie disks at the time??
The movie has been released in three disks to force the theater to have an intermission because they have to change disks (and 70mm dts doesn't have analog backup so that operators cannot stop the player w/o having the sound in the theater gone? Cool...
Karen, it is necessary to cycle power the unit also when the same set of disk is inserted?
Antonio
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-29-2002, 06:21 PM:
The bollywood film was 210 min I believe that Titanic was the absolute max on a 2 disk film with out an intermission
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-29-2002, 06:24 PM:
Gordon, it's DTS/Special Venue which is six full range channels. Track config is L, LC, C, RC, R, Surr. And yes, it plays on a DTS-6D with the SV mod. If it's true that 190 min Titanic maxed out 2 five channel disks then that means that 2 can hold 190 * 5 = 950 channel-minutes. 950 / 6 channels = about 158 minutes. That's a very rough calculation that ignores various things and may be based on a faulty premise but it tends to support the idea that a 171 minute SV release will require 3 disks.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-29-2002, 06:30 PM:
Well there would be more data for 6 full range channels rather than the 5 on normal dts 5.1 so the disks would have less running time
What were the mods required to the DTS6 for SV
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-29-2002, 06:32 PM:
SV simply requires the addition of an IC supplied by DTS.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-29-2002, 06:34 PM:
Could you tell me where it was added and I guess the question to Karen is how much for the chip and is it easy to pop it in and out as required
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-29-2002, 07:12 PM:
Interesting calculation Steve. (I did not realize Patton was mixed with 5 stage channels.)I am also interested in the modification.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-29-2002, 08:08 PM:
I just installed a DTS SV at the Museum Of Ancient Life (see booth photos in the pictures section) and I think the Disney folks told me that it has a maximum playback time of only 85 min. per disk. The thing thats odd is that the format for the "Extreme X" film is still L, C, R, LS, RS, Sub. Apparently Disney has other ideas for upcomming films and this venue needing an SV processor. BTW: the installation into an Iwerks system is a snap. In this particuluar system the Linear Loop has an encoder that talks to the show controller to generate time code. With Iwerks Show Controller all one has to do is to set up a dummy show in the show list to get the rest of the system to run for the length of a given DTS 8 Perf film. This film was just under 4000 feet so we gave it a run time about 15 feet short of the actual length so the system shuts down with the tail still in the machine which is the way they prefer it to stop.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-29-2002, 11:54 PM:
A 6th APT chip is installed in the open socket on the D536 audio card next to the existing 5 chips. V1.46 firmware is required. That's about it.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-30-2002, 04:32 AM:
I take it this is a new rerelease of PATTON? Will the 35mm prints be set up the same way....with a forced intermission, at least for the DTS playback? Personally, it's too bad there wasn't a way in the old days to force theatres to take intermission on all the great roadshow pictures. And a to give projectionists some kind of crawling skin disease when they cut off and not return the overture, entr'acte and exit music footage. Frank
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-30-2002, 09:07 AM:
Titanic was 194 minutes and it fit on two disks, but also had room for snipes and trailers etc. So I'm betting you could get to 210 minutes or thereabouts on two disks.------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 04-30-2002, 11:39 AM:
The files for PATTON were actually quite large and might have fit onto two discs. Its not really how long the film is but how big the files are that determines how many discs are used. We talk about time instead of file size because most customers can relate to it. You start talking megabits and people's eyes glaze over.With PATTON, there were five stage channels. This required that the DTS player be rewired to the cinema processor. We are *supposed* to be given notice before a screening occurs so that we can assist the theater.
The reason why projection had to reboot after changing discs is that the last disc has a different serial number than "A" and "B". This was decided by the studio. As mentioned, they wanted an intermission.
To make a player 6.0 channels, all you need do is add in another APT chip. But, if the movie you get is in 5.1, it will playback in 5.1. At this time, we make discs in 6.0 channels only for special venue.
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-30-2002, 01:15 PM:
If there will be a more general release of this title, will there be a 5.1 mix with "normal" DTS disks, or will all of the 70mm venues need the DTS special venue modification (which sounds trivial, except that it requires five screen channels)?
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 04-30-2002, 07:44 PM:
Hi Scott,There is only one mix for this film = with 5 stage channels. Those are the only discs we provide.
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 04-30-2002, 07:52 PM:
Frank,I saw your message and will find out about OFF TO THE REVOLUTION.
The DTS timecode is shot onto the negative at the same time the analog track is shot. It's "one pass" only. Kodak's John Pytlak posted some great information on that.
In regards to laser etching DTS timecode onto a print. This is not done and we are the only suppliers of our timecode track.
Thanks for the questions, Frank! I'll get back to you about OFF TO THE REVOLUTION.
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-30-2002, 08:30 PM:
Directly imaging the timecode onto a print (photographically via an attachment to the printer, not laser etching) would serve no purpose on a 35mm print where a sound negative is needed for analog and the other digital tracks anyway. But for 70mm where only one or two prints are being made it would represent a nice savings and add to the cost advantage over mag. Of course it might be possible to achieve the same end by using a generic set of negatives, each a bit longer than the longest 70mm reel. Prints made that way would all have the same serial number and would thus be incompatible with the stock disks for that title but burning some special CD/R's to go with the 70mm prints would be cheaper than making timecode negs for just one print.
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 05-02-2002, 12:14 PM:
For Frank,About the film OFF TO THE REVOLUTION - it is a DTS analog film. Since it is not DTS Digital, there are no discs or timecode on the print.
If you have any questions, please let me know.
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-02-2002, 10:01 PM:
Thanks Karen, I had never heard of a DTS analog release. Is this something new? I take it that it would be totally compatible with standard cinema processors, no? Does it use Dolby SR noise reduction?
Any more details that you could give, Karen, would be great.
Frank
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-03-2002, 12:44 AM:
I'm sure it's been discussed here; you may wish to do a search. It's SVA akin to a Dolby Stereo or Ultra Stereo track except that DTS provides the encoding equipment. Can be A-type or SR. If it's not specified I would guess that nowadays it's most likely to be SR.
Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 05-03-2002, 02:51 AM:
Thanks to Frank Angel and Karen at DTS for simplifying the ethics of this topic.PATTON is a near masterpiece which deserves to be treated almost as a theatrical event.
It seems that the 3 disks will ensure compatibility for theatres with DTS capability who are conciencious enough to retain the Intermission and it's play-in music.
It never ceases to amaze me that many modern projectionists don't seem able to cope with the concept of a natural break, placed at a suitably dramatic moment, in an epic film. Or the idea that the play-in music will tell the audience that the story is about to be continued.
This, of course, is opposed to an unnatural break, stuck somewhere in the middle of any film over two hours, by some cinema operators.
regards,
Frank.
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-03-2002, 09:00 AM:
Now if we can just get that print to cross paths with a Dimension 150 screen and Super Curvulon lens.
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 05-03-2002, 02:09 PM:
quote:
I had never heard of a DTS analog release. Is this something new?
Haven't the optical SVA tracks on releases from Universal (from some point in 1993 following "Jurassic Park") and MGM been DTS analog (or "DTS Stereo," as it is customarily called)?
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 05-03-2002, 02:15 PM:
Steve Kraus said about the new 70mm print of "Patton":
quote:
overall this is UMbelievably gorgeous. You will think you've died and gone to high resolution heaven.
He's not exaggerating! I was fortunate to see this back in November of last year when it was run at the Motion Picture Academy's Goldwyn Theater in L.A. It's a shame there are no plans for an actual release; just an occasional special screening, such as the Ebertfest as mentioned in this thread.
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-03-2002, 02:47 PM:
The ultimate in "Film Done Right"! ------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 05-03-2002, 04:49 PM:
'Now if we can just get that print to cross paths with a Dimension 150 screen and Super Curvulon lens.'Patton was shown on the Cinerama screen at the Picurville cinema in Bradford U.K ,last march on a newly installed DP70 and through a Super Curvulon lens, which i was told was given to them by the inventer of the lens. I didnt get to see the show, but I am told the edge to edge focus was perfect on the huge screen and the sound was great too.
The show was part of the Bradford Film festival's Wide Screen weekend. Also shown were 'Cinerama Holiday' in three strip cinerama, 'Where Eagles Dare' 70mm print to name only a couple.
Darren
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 05-03-2002, 06:09 PM:
DTS analog is available in A-Type or SR-Type and is compatible with all cinema processors. We use our own noise reduction process.Karen at DTS
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-04-2002, 03:28 AM:
Stack ads in the LA Times specify sound formats, and the unique "DTS Stereo" logo occasionally shows up.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-04-2002, 09:50 AM:
Very cool....DTS always giving Dolby a run for their money and keeping them on their toes. Competition is a good thing.