Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Maximum feet of film that will fit on a shipping reel

This is topic Maximum feet of film that will fit on a shipping reel in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-31-2002, 12:12 PM:

This discussion continued from the Feature Info forum "requesting print info for Lucky Break"...

John, if 2600 feet of film will overfill a shipping reel to 15.1 inches in diameter, then perhaps I was testing with Fuji film or something. I know I wound just shy of 2800 feet onto a generic clip together reel with a 4 inch core as a test one day. Any idea what Fuji's specs are for thickness? How about the no-name film stocks commonly used for rolling stock ads?

(EDIT: I remember what I was rolling now, it was recycled film that had the emulsion stripped from it for interlocking.)

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 12:29 PM:

You had me worried that my equation was incorrect. Now it makes sense!

With 0.0047 inch thick bare ESTAR support used as leader, 2600 feet would have a diameter of 14.2 inches with a 4-inch core, just about filling that 14.5 inch shipping reel.

Here's my original posting:

35mm triacetate print film had a nominal base thickness of 0.0056 inches (142 microns). Kodak VISION Color Print Film (ESTAR) base has a nominal thickness of 0.0047 inches (119 microns). Print film emulsion thickness is about 0.0006 inches (15 microns).
The roll diameter can be calculated from the following equation:

D = Squareroot [ ( (48 x L x t) / Pi) + (C x C) ]

Where:
D is roll diameter in inches
L is length of film roll in feet
t is film thickness in inches (about 0.0053 for Kodak VISION Color Print film)
C is core/hub diameter in inches
Pi is 3.14159...

So for a shipping reel with a 4-inch core, and a film thickness of 0.0053 inches, 2000 feet of film will have the following diameter:

D = Squareroot [ ( (48 x 2000 x 0.0053) / Pi) + (4 x 4) ]

= 13.3 inches

2600 feet of film will (over)fill the same shipping reel to 15.1 inches diameter.

As Brad notes, it should just be possible to fit a two hour movie (10,800 feet plus leaders) on five shipping reels, although six reels would be more typical.
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-31-2002, 12:34 PM:

Speaking of stripped film...does Kodak sell "base only" that can be used as fill?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 12:45 PM:

Kodak's subsidiary FPC has a full line of leaders, cans, cores, reels, PTRs, Molecular Sieves, professional video cassettes, Digital Media (e.g., Writable CDs), and other items:
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/fpc/fpc_main.html

FPC even has an on-line store:
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/support/ordering.html
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 01:49 PM:

Brad said: "How about the no-name film stocks commonly used for rolling stock ads?"

They have a name, and it usually begins with "A".

On the other hand, 35mm Kodak VISION Color Print Film now has complete magenta-colored edgeprint identification, including Kodak's name, and the complete identification of year, film type, emulsion batch, roll number, strip number and other tracking information.

For example: 2383 743 074 0 27 20 K.ODAK 2002
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizesP.shtml

BTW, magenta dye is used to print the edgeprint ID to avoid interfering with the red-sensitive digital sound readers, which "see" only the cyan dye.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-31-2002, 02:03 PM:

Ok then, so do you know what the thickness of Agfa and Fuji film stocks are?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 02:07 PM:

You need to ask the other manufacturers, since they may vary.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-31-2002, 02:16 PM:

Awwwwww, come on John, you know you at least have an idea of the thickness, even if it isn't exact. That's what disclaimers are for.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 02:20 PM:

If you can't get the data from them, just fill a reel with the film and back-calculate the thickness using the equation I supplied. Hint: you may fit a bit more film on the reel with some (thinner) films.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 05-31-2002, 02:25 PM:

A novice question:

I have heard Polyester mentioned on Film Tech and printed on film cans. Are all films polyester now? And if not, what? Or were they always polyester?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 02:53 PM:

All KODAK VISION Color Print Film is ESTAR (Kodak's trade name for polyester) base. Polyester base was developed by DuPont in 1955 (they called it CRONAR or MYLAR). Kodak licensed the technology, and has made ESTAR base motion picture films since the late 1950's.

Polyester prints were widely used for special venue (e.g., 70mm IMAX, theme parks) and small format films (e.g., film prints shown on airplanes), but Kodak discouraged widescale use for 35mm theatres because of the need for proper tension-sensing failsafes and issues with static and abrasion.

The NATO Technical Advisory Committee requested a conversion to polyester in the early 1990's, as well as distributors who wanted a thinner film to fit longer movies on "tower" and mini-platter systems and reduce shipping costs and perforation damage. Other film manufacturers encouraged the conversion, despite the known concerns expressed by Kodak in several public presentations. While increasing the production of older ESTAR base print films (SO-337, SO-396, 2386) to meet customer demand, Kodak began working on the VISION Color Print technology to address the concerns of projector abrasion and static. A new base-making plant was built at a cost of over $200 million dollars. The VISION Color Print films were introduced about three years ago, and improvements are being made on a continuing basis. Print film on triacetate base is no longer manufactured, and the triacetate facilities and equipment have been reassigned to other product lines.
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/september98/visionFilms.shtml

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-31-2002, 02:53 PM:

Related question: what effect does film (base + emulsion) thickness have on image quality, steadiness, longevity, etc.?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-31-2002, 03:00 PM:

John, it's not that important to me to spend the time finding 2800 feet of Fuji and Agfa film and messing with it. Besides, running the film through a frame counter would be MUCH faster than jacking with the math because the reel would have to be filled anyway and by that point a frame counter would tell you right there how many feet were on the reel. Plus, I've got a good feeling that you know at least an approximate answer anyway. Nevermind though. We wouldn't want to worry the Kodak lawyers.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 03:01 PM:

Scott asked: "Related question: what effect does film (base + emulsion) thickness have on image quality, steadiness, longevity, etc.?"

As a start, there is much information on the Kodak website:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/

You can also read the many technical papers Kodak has published, mostly in the SMPTE Journal. In particular, Dr. Frederick Kolb of Kodak has published numerous papers on the physical properties of film and how they relate to projection.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 03:12 PM:

Brad said: "I've got a good feeling that you know at least an approximate answer anyway. Nevermind though. We wouldn't want to worry the Kodak lawyers."

No Kodak lawyers are involved in what I say. It is simply unfair to comment or provide data on other manufacturers products based on limited sampling.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 05-31-2002, 05:08 PM:

Poor John would have to leave the city limits of the Kodak "company town", Rochester to sample the delights of German lass Miss Agfa or Oriental Fuji moto.....far away from the Kodak guards in their yellow and black uniforms...too bad Miss ORWO is only monochromatic and out of the game

Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 05-31-2002, 05:29 PM:

Kodak "company town"... Is that a theme park? Can we meet the LAD girl there?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2002, 09:59 PM:

Working on ISO International standards, I've been to both Japan and Belgium, and worked with people from both Fujifilm and Agfa-Gevaert. We also participate in SMPTE standards committees together. We're friendly competitors working together to improve and standardize motion-picture technology for the good of all.