Going back to the Fox Grandeur process in the 30's, you can find mono optical. Wonder if there are any machines out there that could play this format?
As for mag, I'm sure there are examples of everything from 1 to 8 channels at least. There is a lot of dispute about 7-8. There is a big debate on rec.arts.movies.tech right now about 8-channel 70mm films. Some claim they exist, and some claim they don't. This is one of those topics that creates endless arguments. It's like the argument of Cinerama having 8 tracks of sound, but actually there were 7 with an operator manually switching one of the surround tracks to a rear speaker (on THIS IS CINERAMA).
The basis for modern 70mm sound is the classic Todd-AO setup, with 5 screen channels and 1 surround.
My friend from Lake Erie, Jeffry L. Johnson, usually pops in with these Dolby Mag formats...these are from one of his previous postings:
70MM COMPOSITE MAGNETIC
40 70mm 6 track (Conventional 6 Track, no NR, Mag Filters)
41 Dolby 70mm Wide (6 Track, A-Type NR, Widerange all 6 Channels)
42 Dolby 70mm Baby Boom (6 Track, A-Type NR, Baby Boom Channels 2 & 4)
43 Dolby 70mm Stereo Surround (6 Track, A-Type NR, Baby Boom/Stereo
Surround)
44 Dolby 70mm Wide (6 Track, SR NR, Widerange all 6 Channels)
45 Dolby 70mm Baby Boom (6 Track, SR NR, Baby Boom Channels 2 & 4)
46 Dolby 70mm Stereo Surround (6 Track, SR NR, Baby Boom/Stereo
Surround)
There is also now 70mm-DTS, which seems to be a very good system. That is the format that I would most like to see, but I doubt there will be any more than a handful of these, at most.
Dolby has stated 70mm-Dolby Digital is possible, but I'm not aware of any production plans. Any 70mm-Dolby digital presentation have been with 70mm film and 35mm Dolby Digital synched (Lion King at Radio City is one example...Disney did a few premeires this way.)
-Aaron
I always read that Fantasound (Disney's one-time setup for the original "Fantasia" road-show) was a 9-track system...or was it just 9 loudspeakers?
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~Manny.
Some people can read "War and Peace" and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story while I, on the other hand, can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.
Lex Luthor, "Superman: The Movie"
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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Wasn't there also a special format for "Apocalypse Now" ?
"Baby Boom" is just a nickname for Format 42. The two subwoofer channels are limited range "miniature" .1 channels, making it a 4.2 channel process. Funny joke about the movie "Baby Boom", although it had no 70mm prints (I think it was just plain Dolby A).
There is dispute about "Apocalypse Now" having a special sound format. The film was the first to publicly show the 70mm Format 43 process, which holds both 4.2 and 5.1 channel mixes on the same print ("Superman" was mixed for the process, but no Format 43 prints were publicly shown). Some point to ads for "Apocalypse Now" that claimed "8-channel quintaphonic sound" which alone is kind of odd in that quintaphonic really implies 5 channels. If it were 8 channels then it would be octophonic. Maybe SDDS would have been more successful if they had a whimsical octopus cartoon mascot. Hehe.
We all know about newspaper ads for films getting technical information wrongly displayed. I think the 8-channel ad on "Apocalypse Now" is just another example. Lately it seems most of the newspaper stack ads in most cities just don't list technical information anymore. If they can't do the job right they won't do the job at all.
Apocalypse Now was Format 43 Stereo Surround. This business about some other track arrangement was argued recently in news://rec.arts.movies.tech and is simply untrue.
Quoting from Larry Blake's R/EP article (later reprinted in his 1984 "Film Sound Today" compilation) about the A.N. sound mix:
Tom Scott was hired to scout and supervise the installations for the 70mm roadshow engagements. ... Scott also had a channel placement film to make sure that everything was where it should be. ... Such a test reel was especially important because tracks #2 and #4 contained low-frequency "boom" information below 200 Hz and, above 500 Hz, high-frequency information for the left and right surrounds.
That is the definition of Format 43 and the article specifically describes A.N. as the first film to use this format. I think it's about time this issue was put to rest.
The Dolby SA-5 was an add-on to the CP-100 that combined the various other external 1U-tall units one would have with a fully tricked out CP-100 into one housing (same cage as a CP-50) as well as the split surround card and a subwoofer card. It was specifically designed for "Apocalypse Now," it being the first split surround film. The manual is available here in the manuals section and contains a description of the A.N. track configuration which is that of Format 43 although that term didn't come into use until the CP-200 came out.
Then there was John Mosley's Quintaphonic Sound format for TOMMY (mid 70s) which produced a split surround. Both predate APOCALYPSE NOW.
Interestingly Quintaphonic Sound is a registered trademark of John Mosley's company -- have no idea how it would be used for any other system, especially for an 8 channel configuration.
Then again, nomenclature in this industry has always been much more a fucntion of marketing rather than the real technology involved. They attach practically any name they want in those newspaper ads to film titles.
Bobby, it's interesting that you note that there are those who have seen some reference to APOCALYPSE NOW in "8 Track Quintaphonic Sound". The only ads I have seen using the term "Quintaphonic Sound" in conjunction with this film were the NY Times and LA Times advanced ticket ads (for the Ziegfeld and Cinerama Dome), but these only stated "6 Track Quintaphonic Sound." Perhaps since "Quintaphonic Sound" was already used as a trademark by John Mosley, this term got dropped quickly. (Although I still wonder whetjer Tommy was in "QuintAphonic Sound (as all newspaper logos at the time showed) or QuintOphonic Sound (as the end credits of the film shows).
BTW, Gordon, the name of that strange format for DAMNATION ALLEY (AKA Survival Run) was Sound 360. It was especially odd in that all three house speakers were full stage-sized units (at least at the installation I saw, and the surround track was of course the normal narrow width playing through a full sized stage-speaker. While I never heard the film in this format, this theatre CONTINUED to use these three house speakers as their surround system when they installed Dolby Stereo. The film was a huge BOMB (a Fox dud in the fall following Star Wars' debut). The studio kept going back and fourth on the title in advanced marketing. Star Wars changed a LOT for the studio. One pick-up that summer, the cult hit Suspiria, was annoinced as a Fox release, but came out under some dummy corporation, International Classics, instead of Fox, but Variety discovered (and reported) the corporate names attached to this "new" company were the SAME as Fox (a company named that had actually been used by Fox decades earlier to "hide" undesirable films from the Fox name. Too bad studios are no longer embarrassed by the "quality" of their product.
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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
What will that be?
As for THE THING, from the list by Michael Coate And William Kallay for WSR, expect 6-track Dolby Stereo Magnetic.
I have a hunch on why the "8-track Quintaphonic Sound" rumor got started: bad print quality on newspaper ads. Dot gain is really terrible on newsprint. The ink runs. It is real easy for a number 6 to wind up looking like a number 8.
Actually, there were only two ads that ran with this information (NY Times and LA Times, once each). The type used in the "open letter" by Francis Coppola was so large I doubt any amount of bleeding caused the 6 to turn into an 8. So far, you are the only one I have ever heard from that knows of people who think that 8 Track and Quintaphonic Sound went together in those ads.
The Thing is Dolby 42
I'm am 100% all for DTS timecode (and discs) to be included on new 70mm prints. However, I would really really like to see some actual new mainstream releases using the format rather than it just be special venue films and revivals of older films.
It would have really been something if "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones" had been filmed in 65mm, CGI rendered at 5000+ lines and a slew of 70mm DTS prints struck. That would have been a very big deal.
Tell us about it !
What ??! What ??!
Per
You may want to go back to the rec.arts discussion again. I just double-checked, and only two people mentioned the Quintaphonic Sound ad for Apocalypse Now, and both of us said it was only 6-track.
BTW, wouldn't the split surround version of Format 43 be more accurately referred to as 5.2 (it seems logical if the mono surround version is referred to as 4.2)
And if you are into numerology you can chuckle at the idea that Dolby, who quite logically named the double Cat.22 card the Cat.222 card named the (original) Cat.69 test film thusly because it could go both ways. Red wire = right channel? Nope. Red represents the left side of the political spectrum. Any similar clevertudes I've missed?
quote:
I'm trying to remember the specifics on why "Superman: The Movie" was mixed with Format 43 in mind, but with no prints actually being made in the process.
Bobby,
What is it you're trying to remember? Could it be that you simply do not know the specifics of this film and its soundtrack and, therefore, there is nothing to recall?
Despite the "unofficial" status of "Superman" being a 70mm split surround (aka: "stereo surround"/Format 43) title, my feeling is that the prints (or at least some of them) *were* in Format 43, regardless of theaters possibly not being equipped to run the format until the release of "Apocalypse Now" several months later. "Superman" was a test of compatibility, was it not?
"Superman" enjoyed a long, successful run and has had special and revival-type screenings in the years since the "official" introduction of the 70mm Dolby split surround format, so why couldn't those screenings be in split surround, if screened in an appropriately-equipped theater? Anyway, I can only comment on my own experiences with the title in question. I've not handled a print of the film but have seen the movie many times, including twice theatrically (in 70mm) in the last ten years (not counting the 2001 expanded cut of the film which I was also lucky enough to see in a theater). A 70mm print of "Superman" has been screened in Southern California on at least four occasions during the 1990s. One late-90s screening that I attended was held in a theater in which I knew the projectionist and one which was Format 43-capable. It was made clear to me prior to the show that the theater's audio processor was set for "43" for that screening, and I was asked for my impression of the sound presentation following the movie. Now, the question is -- and I'll need help from experienced projectionists here -- if a 70mm print is sounded only in Format 42 and the projectionist sets the playback for "43," what will the audience hear? Wouldn't the "baby boom" and surround content disappear in this scenario? My point: this recent screening of "Superman" clearly had "baby boom" and surround activity suggesting to me that the prints were in Format 43 (with backward compatibility with "42," of course).
quote:
You'll be seeing more this year (70 dts)Tell us about it !
What ??! What ??!
Think 40th anniversary...
Quote:
"Going back to the original mix, we were shocked when we heard it. We grabbed the original 70mm full-coat that actually had the label from the Pinewood stage on it; it had a date of November 1978. We put it up in a dubbing stage. We had Dolby down there a couple times verifying that the set up on the Dolby units, the decoding, was correct. Superman was the first film that was originally recorded in a 70mm 6-track split surround but here's the rub that no one knows about but it's the truth. They mixed in split surrounds but they did not use the surrounds very much, especially in a stereo way because it was very new and they were very scared of it. At the last second, here in America, they brought it over to do some final mastering on the 70mm and they chickened out and the film was only released with mono surround in the 70mm format. So they mixed it for stereo surround, but it was never released that way and the fact is that there wasn't much difference anyway."
Now, I could have sworn Richard Donner and Creative Consultant Tom Mankiewicz said something about the same topic during their commentary, but I just can't seem to find it in a scan.
Nevertheless, when one considers just how rushed the first "Superman" movie was in post production and that the Format 43 process had never been publicly shown, it is easy to see just why anyone who saw the original 70mm prints in North America heard only a Format 42 mix.
1962's worth a restauration:
Lawrence - been done (not dts, but done...)
HTWWW - too many strips for me...
BOUNTY - damned anamorph
Whoever knows, please come up front !
Per
However, I would say if anything from 1962 gets a 40th Anniv. treatment, odds are 9 of 10 it would be "Lawrence." That film would also seem to be the easiest to do in 70mm DTS.
Quote:
"With dialog it doesn't really matter that much because you normally put the dialog down in the center channel anyway. Superman was different; they actually draped it across the whole front three speakers, which really prevented us from using any of the original mix. It doesn't work that well and sounds strange. Stereo was kind of a new gadget and I think they were just playing with the new toy. Dialog is best kept in the center channel for clarity."
While it is true Superman used directional dialog, it was hardly a new "gadget". Stereo, complete with directionalized dialog had been used in movies for, oh, 25 years before "Superman." Hardly a "new toy" or concept. It just goes to show that these memories on DVD commentariy tracks and in film journals are not always the accurate sources of information people make them out to be.
I agree with what you say in regards to the people referring to things like dialog pans across stage channels as a "new gadget". Some wrongly believe 70mm Dolby A mag was the originator of 6-track magnetic sound. A lot of film fans today don't know about past formats like 70mm mag having ever existed.
Still, the item in dispute (whether "Superman" had an actual Format43 mix on original release prints) is different. With someone closely involved with the project stating the film was mixed for it but never released using it stands as a very specific claim, not a generalized opinion about sound mixers playing to liberally with a new toy.
RE: "Superman"
I don't feel the quotes you supplied from the DVDFile article necessarily proves much of anything. Why? Because I have spoken to Michael Thau, one of the producers of the "Superman" restoration project and DVD, and received information that condradicts his quotes supplied to DVDFile.com. You see, as with DVDFile and other publications, I too had prepared a story on "Superman" which incorporated interview material with many of the people involved in both the original production and the restoration. Mr. Thau and one of his producing collaborators, Jonathan Gaines, were gracious enough to invite me to sit in on two days of work on the project (one day for the sound mix, one day for the video transfer). There were additional conversations as well, and I simply have a different impression of the original sound mix and release than the quotes supplied to DVDFile.
Does this prove anything? No. But it does point to how people quite simply are not always armed with correct information, no matter how "connected" to a project they may be.
Now, if only some experienced projectionists on this forum (Gordon? Steve?) could weigh in on my question a few posts back about what an audience would actually hear if a print was in Format 42 but played back in 43. The question is whether or not the surrounds and "baby boom" would disappear if intended for 42 but played back in 43.
Maybe they should have put a barker announcer into the mid & high on Format 42 prints like some tv stations do on their SAP audio: "You are set to the wrong playback mode...!"
I assume that they don't actually mean '70mm full-coat', do they?
Per
quote:
Come on with all You've got
There's actually more than one 70mm-DTS release planned; I threw out the "think 40th anniversary" hint for only one of the titles. I am aware of the other titles being considered, but since they have not been officially announced for release the studios (and Karen at DTS) would not be too happy with me if I revealed the titles.
One "new" 70mm-DTS release I can mention, however, is the 1967 65mm French film "Play Time," which began some new screenings at the Cannes Film Festival a few weeks ago. Not sure if the print(s) will find their way to other countries.
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Cheers, Thomas