Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: So they tell me the framing lamp doesn't work...

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Posted by Brian Tristam Williams (Member # 1235) on 06-03-2002, 11:16 AM:

Most of the framing lamps in our Christies were blown, according to the projectionists, but, upon inspection, they'd all rattled their way loose from the screw terminals. Wonder what would have happened if they'd rattled all the way out and fallen down...

Is this loosening of the framing lamps a noted and recorded occurence?

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"One man can make a difference."

Posted by Michael Rourke (Member # 1142) on 06-03-2002, 01:26 PM:

That happens on my Centuries, that's why it is important to check all your screws, nuts and other fittings in the projector to make sure they haven't worked their way loose from the vibrations.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 06-03-2002, 01:30 PM:

A bunch of Simplexes where I used to work had the framing LED's go out a lot, but I never needed them to thread in frame

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-03-2002, 05:06 PM:

The ones in my Westar (Century copy) projectors vibrate loose from time to time. I don't use them and I've thought about removing them entirely, but I'm a sucker for keeping things in the condition in which they shipped.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-04-2002, 08:00 PM:

Hello, Brian,

In regard to the loose lamp problem, the mobile communications equipment was plagued with loose indicators. (Especially on the motorcycle police units) They solved the problem by changing to BAYONET based lamps. The are installed by pushing the lamp into the socket and turning. The contacts are under spring tension and the
lamp cannot escape from the socket.

Bayonet based lamps are available for most voltages and lamp sizes.

Happy relamping.
KEN

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-05-2002, 05:25 AM:

But then how do these popcorn jockeys thread up in frame if the threading lamp is out? Oh, that's right, I forgot; they DON'T. At least not at UA theatres. I went to see INSOMNIA at the UA "Movies at Sheapshead Bay" in Brooklyn. An older 12 plex that UA decided needed a bigger concessions area and a few more "state-of-the-fart" rooms. So I am up in one of the "new" rooms and the show starts, you guessed it, out of frame. We sit through 4 trailers with the frameline in the center of the screen. This particular theatre was up a the very top of the building, the furthest from any human life. I was panicing because I knew no one was in the booth and if nothing was done, we would be watching Pacino split in two. So I called on my cell phone. Got the manager's line and it rang and rang and rang and after two whole trailers played, someone picked up the phone and immediately slammed it back down. Evidently the ringing was bothering him. But then I see an usher come in, look at the screen and then leave (presumably to get someone who knew what to do -- in and of itself, probably a difficult task). Luckily by the timehe found someone, we had only watched the first 10 min of the feature out-of-frame. To see the film racked back in frame was such a relief, that only a few of us complained about the 85 degrees temperature (no exageration -- guys were taking their shirts off) AND some door behind the screen that would slam as loud as the door on a van every minute or so through the ENTIRE film. It's called, film done so bad it hurts.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-05-2002, 08:33 AM:

Frank --- at least it will be in frame 25% of the time.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Brian Tristam Williams (Member # 1235) on 06-05-2002, 11:56 AM:

25% of the time by random chance, yes. But I've seen people who manage to get things wrong much more often than statistics would allow.

To those of you who don't need the framing lamp to thread in-frame, two questions:

One, what technique, if it's not staring at the film through the aperture, do you use, and two, what type of leader do you use? We're currently using black leader with transparent frame lines, but I see that the Film-Tech tips illustrate the use of a transparent leader with black frame lines. It seems to me that the second option would be easier, and maybe we should change.

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"One man can make a difference."

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-05-2002, 01:16 PM:

Today is a rare day indeed, for John Pytlak has made a false statement! Amazing.

John said "at least it will be in frame 25% of the time." Not so. That statement would only be valid if the installing technician had locked the framing controls down. As it is, a film could be less than a perforation off and be out of frame with visible matting or frame lines in the picture. The odds are only a couple of percent here.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-05-2002, 01:26 PM:

Brad said: "John said "at least it will be in frame 25% of the time." Not so. That statement would only be valid if the installing technician had locked the framing controls down. As it is, a film could be less than a perforation off and be out of frame with visible matting or frame lines in the picture. The odds are only a couple of percent here. "

Picky, picky...but technically correct.

Standard SMPTE 195 specifies the vertical centering of the image to be "within 0.012 inches (0.30 millimeters)" (dimension F=H) or "nominally equal" (dimension J=K), so more than this is technically out of frame.

But as you know, Brad does NOT believe in "Film Done Right"!

He believes in "Film Done Perfect"!

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 06-05-2002, 06:07 PM:

The Kinoton E projectors' movements are always set when not running, so it's easier to get the kids to thread in frame, "all you have to do is put the little picture in the little window". Maybe that should be our new slogan: "Kinoton: helping theatres employ the clueless".

I'm convinced that the inability of "booth attendants" to master the arcane art of setting the movement is the largest single cause of "intolerable, even to the dense patron" projection errors in cinemas.

------------------
Larry Shaw
Boston Light & Sound, Inc.
North American Distributor of Kinoton GmbH
290 North Beacon Street
Boston, MA 02135-1990
Tel: 617-787-3131 x104 Fax: 617-787-4257
E-Mail: larry@blsi.com
Web site: http://www.blsi.com/kinoton

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-05-2002, 06:31 PM:

I never used the framing lamps in the Christies. It's hard for me to find them accurate and they confuse my little brain. I usually just look at the frame lines in the aperture before I close the gate. On Simplexes I do use the framing lamp since there is so little space between the gate and trap when it is open. I can't remember how I got the Brenkerts in frame, all I know is that I didn't like those projectors at all (and yes, I did get them in frame). It's been a loooong time since I threaded a Century projector and I don't remember if I used framing lamps or not. Same goes with Cinemeccanica. I've never threaded a Kinoton since for some reason they are not popular here in the states (poor marketing???).

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-05-2002, 09:01 PM:

My own $0.02 worth.....

One of the best framing lamp set-ups is on a Cinemecannica V8. A 35mm x 1/8inch (excuse my mixed measurments) slot illuminates the entire width of the film (it uses a festoon lamp.) The lamp is only 1/4" away from the actual film, which makes it very bright, allowing you to see the frame line through dark sections of film. Also good: the framing window on a Simplex. The bulb is only a 1/2" away, so the window is lit pretty well.

My "not-so-good" award goes to a regular Century. The framing lamp is fairly far away, and illuminating the film relies on the lamp light reflecting off of the shroud behind the trap. This was not too bad when they were being painted white, but now that they use gray, is really poor. Both a Ernamann 15 and the Kinoton PK60 are not so good. A Cinemecannica V5, V9 is actually worse, since the lamp is off to the the side, and barely lights up the aperture. A AA-II also has a poor method; there's hardly any light at all on the window, which is located in the fixed gate.

On poorly lit framing windows, I usually forget trying to use the existing framing window, and find a location exactly 2-3 frames above the actual aperture, or some other reference point, and "frame" there. Usually it's not a problem framing with the leader, but if you have to thread a dark section of film, (as in; you are fixing a film break while into the feature) only the V8, or maybe the Simplex provides a bright enough light.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-06-2002, 07:47 PM:

Are there no more dummy apertures? My X-L straight gates have them (4 frames above the real aperture). Since framing is easily observed even after threading is completed you can watch as you cue the film forward to verify that it really is in frame and you didn't forget to move the intermittent into the dwell period.

Larry said:
> Maybe that should be our new slogan:
>"Kinoton: helping theatres employ the clueless".

That was pretty much the case with the platter...er...I mean "non rewind equipment" and what has that done for presentation?

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 06-06-2002, 08:10 PM:

Steve,

Sadly true. Of course its the law of unintended consequences. Kinoton originally marketed the "non-rewind equipment" so the projectionist could sit at a console in the middle of the house to best adjust sound and image. Unfortunately that's not exactly how the theatre owners chose to use it.

I wonder what sort of equipment would be in use if Kinoton hadn't invented the platter? I'm quite sure it wouldn't involve well paid and trained professionals making flawless 20 minute changeovers.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-06-2002, 08:47 PM:

Although I never worked a Kinoton, it sounds very similar to the Simplex -- a square opening (dummy aperture as Steve called them) that allows the operator to see exactly what is in the "real" aperture. Even a high school concessionaire could tell when they are in frame. In all of our Simplex XLs and P35s, I've replaced the standard 6v pilot bulb along with transformer and use a 12v halogen that is knock-your-socks-off bright -- simple change, especially effective for those SMPTE leaders that are 80% dense, with the frame image almost as dark as the black framelines.

It's the Century's whole framing thing that is very scary. Using a little screw on the top of the gate to line up the frame line and judge where you are is pretty low-tech. I am forever looking into the lens to be sure. Then, given the fact that there is no sweet framing window like the Simplex, this raises the odds of a misframe, Century then goes and designes the framing mechanism so that it can correct only mis-frames of one and two sprockets off -- if you are off by three sprockets, the framing knob won't bring you back in frame and the only thing you can do is stop the show and rethread. Only now you are no longer on a leader but on picture, which in a dark scope scene, is nealy impossible to find a frameline and line it up with that damn screw. It's called "hey, Century man, you're screwed!" This happened to me with an audience of 5000 people in a screening of WEST SIDE STORY in the park. Hmmmm I had almost forgotten why I hate Century's, until just now. Gimme back my XLs -- I will take a little oil dripping rather than 5000 people clapping and hooting whilst I am trying to rethread... ANY time.

Frank

PS -- Yeah, yeah, Brad is going to raz me about not ever having to correct a misframe and locking down the framing knob. And I say, in a perfect world, you are right, but when you get a print an hour before show from Swank and it has about 200 splices in it, you might not have time to thoroughly inspect each and every splice as well as you would like -- a misframe could get by the best of us. That's why a framing window is more than just a nice idea, but more than that, it's why a framing mechanism that really allows you correct EVERY misframe, no matter if it is one, two or three sprockets off, is something I would consider essential in a well designed projector head, IMHO.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-07-2002, 02:45 AM:

No framing window on Centurys? What model?

On the C's, the frameline is supposed to be even with the top of the gate runners. Same for early-model SAs. This is easier to do than to explain.

Most of the SAs that I've used have framing windows that are very similar to the Simplex framing window, except not quite as easy to see. These have a separate framing bulb, much like Simplexes.

The only JJ that I'm familiar with is an early model, but it has a great framing window. This model predates the ones with flexible gate bands, though, and I haven't seen the current models.

After a quick demonstration and a couple of attempts, no one should ever have any difficulty threading in frame on any common model of Simplex or Century.

Even though I'm defending the Century design here, I will agree that their framing mechanism is a bit lame. It will go about 1 and 3/4 perfs in either direction (on most SAs, anyway), which is just silly. Might as well just make it 1 perf or 2 perfs. Maybe the newer models have fixed this.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-07-2002, 06:45 AM:

Framing schmaming....what happend to the good old idea of merely striking the lamp, opening the douser, buring a hole in the leader, turning off the lamp and then racking the film down to see if you are in frame?

Now if Kinoton could only make their FP-38E wake up 16mm formats "In-Frame."

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 06-07-2002, 07:01 AM:

Brenkerts have a framing aperture with a small lamp behind them. I've never had a problem with proper framing on a Brenkert. The problem with them is having enough fingers to hold the film in position while trying to engage the pressure plate. Unlike the Simplex with that big old sring-loaded lever, the Brenkert has to be manually moved into position while holding the film in the gate. I'm not too crazy about the framing aperture on the Motiograph AA, where you SWEAR you're going to scratch the hell outta something pushing the film way back there.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-07-2002, 07:14 AM:

Frank,
Century C's allow you to correct the full gamut of framing errors (unlike our Bauer U4s); like Scott I wonder what Century's you're referring to.

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-07-2002, 08:42 AM:

I've always preferred the Norelco/Kinoton approach of framing on the actual aperture to the ones that are spaced above the aperture. The Simplex curved gate can take some getting used to...at first it seems as if the frame is too high relative to the framing window. The straight gate though was a snap.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-07-2002, 11:39 AM:

Doesn't everybody who threads Christies use the aperture to frame?

Are Brad and myself the only two that don't allow the framing knob to ever be moved again once it is set properly?

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-07-2002, 11:59 AM:

Frank said: "Although I never worked a Kinoton, it sounds very similar to the Simplex -- a square opening (dummy aperture as Steve called them) that allows the operator to see exactly what is in the "real" aperture."

Unlike Simplex, Kinotons do not have a framing aperture above the actual aperture. I wish they did. I do not like using the actual aperture to frame, especially if the aperture plate is set for Flat. It can be difficult to get it exactly in frame sometimes.

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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 06-07-2002, 12:05 PM:

I like the old X-L framing aperature also. Using this, i have only threaded out of frame once.. and that was during an emergency change to projector 2 when the lamp on #1 went out during the middle of our platter run feature. It was during an unusually dark scene and had to thread quickly. I knew it was prob out of frame when it was threaded so it was fixed before most people noticed.

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Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-07-2002, 06:36 PM:

Joe -- the locked-down framing knob works until either a) you have top masking and don't have a projector base with adjustable tilt and/or b) you get a print of something like Enigma, which is a scope film where every reel is slightly out of frame and minor correction is needed at every reel change.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-07-2002, 07:52 PM:

Actually I worked at a theater that had top masking exclusively and the difference in framing between scope and flat was barely noticable at best. And I mean barely.

Movies like Enigma should be printed properly. Or just use the flat aperture so you never see any frame lines!

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 06-07-2002, 09:47 PM:

Isn't it true that all projectors with seprate framing windows had them because, in their original versions, the projection aperture couldn't be seen when the gate was closed? Examples: XL's, A, C & H Centurys, Brenkerts.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-07-2002, 10:20 PM:

I would think the toss up is being able to see the frame in the actual aperture vs what happens to the light as it leaves the aperture while projecting.

While it is true that Simplex and Century (and others) block direct viewing of the aperture (historically, at least) they don't have the light leakage problem of the other types (like Norelco/Kinoton). Early FP-20 and AAII used a green plexiglass door cover to reduce the light leakage. Also there were light shields on the lens holders. Now one must be careful to ensure that stray light from the aperture area does not spill out into the auditorium. This can be a real issue in a theatre with a large A/V style window.

All of that said, I still prefer framing up right on the aperture. From the AAII onward, I have never found any difficulty determining proper framing. The DP-75 was odd in that you had to pre-judge where the frame would be when the gate was closed versus when it is open. What you thought would be in frame when it is open will not be when it is closed...with practice, even that is overcomable.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-07-2002, 11:18 PM:

Scott, the Century's we have are SAWs (W being the water gate, or so I was told). There's a picture of it in the Picture section here -- go to Movies in the Park and then down a bunch of pics to the one where you can see the operating side. The angle is not great, but you can see the pilot lamp in the top left hand corner. And for sure there is no framing window above the gate -- only the wussy pilot bulb and nothing but that screw on the top of the gate band that you are supposed to wrap the film around so that it is between the second and third sprocket (try doint that with one hand while trying to sit the film correctly around the intermittant and then with the ball of the same hand closing the gate. I have been able to get the hang of it after some practice, and after ALWAYS double-checking through the lens (not easy with scope). BUT -- that aint no framing window. And threading on leader is ok, but the problem is, like the example I gave, if you run into a misframed splice that you didn't catch in prep, and it is in a very dark scene on a scope print with barely (and I mean barely) visible frame lines -- that little 7 watt bulb lighting up the area above the little screw is not enought to let you see diddley-squat. And of course none of this would be a problem if the damn intermittant framing design would allow you to correct any amount of sprocket misframe. Is there ANY other projector make that can't frame up and down a full frame or is this limitation unique to Century?

Other than that, I love them!

Oh, and while I've got ya'll, can someone explain exactly the function of the knurled knob with the set screw at the top of the lens holder? It seems to lock down the entire focusing knob. Sorry bout all the questions, guys, but I ran a Century booth 25 years ago and only 5 shows on these "new" Centurys.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-08-2002, 11:56 AM:

That knob allows the les to be shifted left to right to compensate for 4 track mag prints center line shift

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-08-2002, 07:45 PM:

Frank,

(as above) the limitation of not being able to adjust the framing by 3 full perferations in either direction is also present on the Bauer U4.

--jhawk