This is topic Used Simplexes? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003541
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-06-2002, 08:19 AM:
Once long ago I was told that you can tell a factory refurbished or rebuilt Simplex machine (and perhaps other brands like Century) as opposed to a brand new one because the used ones had the inside of them painted white. How true is this? Also, were Simplexes ever made to where they were painted white even though they were brand-spankin' new?
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-06-2002, 11:30 AM:
Joe, I have three Simplex 35's that fit your discription. However, they were nicely painted to look like brand new machines, but the non-operating side was still white in color. The machines were all military surplus as Simplex XL's. They still had the old straight gates in them.
I can't answer your second question, because I have not seen any older new ones. If they were indeed painted white in the gearcase, it had to be proir to 1994 when we bought a brand-spanking new machine. Ours was not painted white in the gearcase as far as I can remember.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-06-2002, 12:18 PM:
By "inside," do you mean the operator side or the gear side? I've seen many older X-Ls which are painted white in the film compartment (operator side), most of which are almost certainly original installations and haven't been rebuilt. Most of these are the ones with the black casting, but also check the pics of the Hanscom AFB theatre. Those X-Ls are the straight-gate models and are all grey on the exterior and have white film compartments.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-06-2002, 10:13 PM:
Definately original XLs curved gates had the film compartment painted white. Bruce Sanders, one of the most talented design engineers and who spent much of his free time refurbishing Simplex and Centurys, did a lot of research in duplicating the baked white paint finish for the inside of the XL head. He got samples of the original heads and wound up using a resin paint, and three coats, baking and sanding each one. The resultant finish rivaled the original. I know because I have two that he refurbished and the paint has never yellowed or discolored in any way and it withstands cleaning solutions of all kinds. He also used a the crinkle black paint for the outside housing.
Posted by Jeff Logan (Member # 1163) on 06-06-2002, 10:39 PM:
What you were told is true depending on what model Simplex you're talking about. Starting with the oldest models, Standard and Super
Simplexes were painted black inside and out. The older Supers were
a smooth gloss black finish on the outside. They later switched to
a "crackle finish" black. I believe that starting with the E-7's, Simplex started painted the inside of the operating side white. This continued with the Simplex XL's, which were later re-named 35's after Singer Sewing machine bought Simplex, kept the trademarked XL name and later sold the company. So, what they told you basically applies to the old Super Simplexs which were the workhorses of the industry until the mid 1960's and automation.
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 06-07-2002, 03:42 AM:
Simplex Standards and Supers were all black inside origionally. The E-7 was the first Simplex to be painted a different color inside. It was like an Ivory White not a bright white. Supers were sold untill 1950 and the later ones were white inside. I had a pair of Standards once that were very late serial number (54xxx) that were painted white form the factory and a "1" was stamped in front of the deaial number. These were IPC rear shutters and probably rebuilt at the factory. Most machines I have seen were painted by someone other then the factory and did not have that baked enamel feel. Both early Supers and E-7's were gloss black with later ones krinkel finish like the X-L's. All X-L's that I know of were white inside with the gear side gray. Most Simplex 35's are white inside and gear side.Century from the "C" on up were, untill newer ones, all painted white inside and gear side. Can't remember how the Century K was (Simplex copy or Kaplan).
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-07-2002, 06:39 AM:
A Simplex XL or 35 should ALWAYS be painted white on the inside of the film compartment, particularly if you have a single-lens version. The current powder coat grey all over is a function of ease of manufacturing not an improvement to the machine. The white color in the film compartment actually is supposed to be an ease for threading. The Simplex XL/35 has two lights in the door of the projector that actually WILL light up the inside of the projector for threading (even in a completely darkened booth) whereas the current powdercoat interiors effectively kill that effect. The above also applies to Century projectors. The gear side is another matter. They are supposed to be gray. Some vintages did have a white vertical shaft casting (aka..."the harp"). Century also used to have a white interior on the gear side but that only served to show how messey it got when the grease was applied.
An oddity, Strong did paint the gate operator crank white in the mid '80s...it didn't last long (either the paint nor the idea of painting it)...the reason, as far as I can tell, is unknown.
Steve
------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 06-08-2002, 12:17 AM:
Joe;
When I was a boy some of the early Simplex Regulars were made by Precision Machine Corp and were so stamped on the operating side door. ie PMC. In those days the exhibitors were just as enamored of spending money as they are now.So reluctantly , at some preconceived period, they would send their Simplex reg to their nearest branch of National Theatre Supply Co[ in all major cities.] National, after checking whether they were good for it, would send out a huge crate with a "loaner" in it, usually the "loaner" being painted on the exterior a bright white,yellow or red, which the "operator" [projectionist] would install and send the theatres projector head to NTS. It is very hard to impart to you the skills of these early NTS machinists.I don`t think any young booth employees have ever heard projectors run like this, complete absense of any intermittent indexing noise and complete silence of operation.No one would pay for that kind of hand lapping and fitting that was done then. The last projectors that had that kind of fitting were the XL`s of 1950 and 1951. Anyway, Joe, after these exhorbinate overhauls[400-500$] they were sent back with the operating side enameled a nice white, which was well done and lasted a long time. There were the first white interiors I ever saw. [1937-40.
Bob Koch
Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 06-08-2002, 11:52 AM:
I believe at one time, ACT 3 Theaters would chemically strip the castings of old Simplex XL's, Simplex 35's, and Century SA's. Then they sent them back to the Strong factory where they would be professionally repainted, but they were done in the current factory color scheme of Hammerite dark gray (#41145) throughout (no white) 
Maybe Pat Moore could shed some more light 
on this. I prefer the white interior myself.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-08-2002, 04:08 PM:
After looking over the three Simplex 35's, I know they are not Simplex 35's. They are Simplex XL's made to look like Simplex 35's. As I have indicated before, all three of these machines have the old straight gate. They also have XL-vintage framing shafts. One has a hammertone paint job on the compensator while the other two have a drippy white paint job. The vertical shaft bracket's paint looks like it was painted in chunks.Luckly, Film-Guard does not attack the paint job in the film compartment. But I don't want to use Film-Guard to clean the projectors. It is just too expensive.
When these machines were supposedly re-furbished, they were just painted over with what I think must have been a spray-bomb to make them look nice and new. I just tested a spot with denatured alcohol, and it dissolved the paint. Xekote dissolves it, as well as Rosco Lens Cleaner.
Guess what color of paint was under it....White paint, just like the XL's. No primer or nothing.
Some of the gate parts are badly worn, and the sprockets are not the VKF style, except for what was on the movements. One machine has the oil sump screen laying on its side and sucking air unless the oil level in the sight glass is almost 1.5 inches high. Now I know why the oil level has to be maintained so damned high in that specific machine. By the way the sump screen looks, there is nothing I can do other than ordering a new one.
The manufacturer's tag has been removed from all three the projectors. The serial numbers were still on the main casting. The numbers are: 18489, 13495, and 13428. I still have a strong suspicion they were orginally military surplus that sat in a St. Louis, Missouri warehouse for years. There is nothing wrong with that by any means, but the condition they are in for being supposedly refurbished leaves a lot to be desired. Even the lens barrel alignment slot looks like it has sustained 20 years of lens changes.
Thanks to this tread, I noticed a few other things during my fine-toothed comb inspection that need immediate attention to head off some major troubles, such as missing bolts, pivot pins that fall out, a missing film stripper, and shitty crimp connections on the framing light wiring harness, just to mention a few. Of the three machines, two are complete piles of 
.
Rant mode off. 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-08-2002, 06:28 PM:
Straight gates are available for current simplexs still
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-08-2002, 06:53 PM:
Gordon, I like the old straight gates. 
Do you or does anyone know what I can use for deep cleaning these machines that have such a chinsy paint job?
Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-09-2002, 06:01 AM:
Paul,I usually grab a bottle of "409" from the concession stand. Spray it on the cloth not into the machine. It polishes up nicely with another cloth dampened with water.
The curved gates are to reduce film deforming during the heat of projection. The Temple had Simplex XLs and 165 Ampere Carbon arcs. The throw is 165 feet and the screen is 50 feet wide. You could see the buckling in the center of the image during credits. The very center 6 feet of the image would be hard to watch as the white letters seem to "move" in and out of focus. Only the black background did this.
KEN
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-09-2002, 09:36 AM:
During GPL periord the XL's built for telecine were a krinkle blue colour
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-09-2002, 12:25 PM:
Thanks, Ken. I'll give it a try.