Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Booth / Projection Room Temperature

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Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 06-10-2002, 01:51 PM:

We have been in arguments with the shopping centre in over 6 months about the temperature in the
Projection room and Managers office. (Foyer and Auditoriums are JUST acceptable)

How can it be that it’s freezing (it’s winter right here now) outside yet we are getting temps of
Over 37c/98f in the projection room. I mean I break out into a sweat just filling out the diary.

Would this high temp have something to with the wrap-arounds we keep getting?
Thing is, it only happens to certain prints, like one out of 10, but when they decide to stick
there is no other option than to baby-sit the print to the end, each run.

At another cinema the projection room(s) are kept at below 18c/64f, which is too cold for me,
However there seems to be no problem with sticky prints / wrap-arounds in those projection rooms.

So basically my question is what temperature should the projection room be kept at?

Bill.

Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 06-10-2002, 02:07 PM:

Film loves 55% humidity +/- 5% and temp between 70 and 74 degrees. Yes variations can cause all kinds of problems... especially in large format. My booth temp and Humidity are graphed and stay at correct enviroment 24 hours a day. Befor we got our new HVAC. We had all kinds of problems with our film scratching.

------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 06-10-2002, 02:14 PM:

FWIW: As a long time shopping center owner/developer I can tell you that it's rare (at least in the US) for the center to have any control over a cinema's HVAC. When we do a theater deal, the operator / tenant either a) builds the theater himself with or without a financial contribution from the center, or b) at least specs the tonnage and systems. The last thing you want is for the operator to be able to come back after the fact and point the finger at you and claim it "doesn't work". I've been involved in numerous theater deals, and they've all gone down more or less that way.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-10-2002, 03:11 PM:

Booths should be kept cool. The worst thing you can do is allow the temperature to change constantly (cool at night/hot during the day, or vice versa). Your films will run better and your equipment will last a lot longer if you keep it cool, preferably never higher than 70F. That being said, just because the air conditioner's thermostat says "70F" does NOT mean it is really 70 degrees. For some reason the installers of these HVAC units always find the coolest part of the booth to put their sensors, so in reality if you want 70F you generally have to dial it down to 65F to trick the system.

I actually know of one theater that I service where the booth manager is a FREAK! He sets the temperature in the booth to 85F...or higher!!! Everything runs so hot I am amazed the equipment hasn't spontaneously combusted from overheating. When asked why the system is set so high, his answer is always "I'm from Florida." Well that's great and all, but myself and everyone else that works at that theater are from the planet Earth! Since he doesn't have an actual exhaust system, I am certain that a lot of his lamphouse problems and short bulb life are attributed to his keeping the booth so damned hot. (The same make/model lamphouses at another almost identical location with an identical "pseudo-exhaust above the ceiling tile" system run cool to the touch, this guy's lamphouses run burning hot. The other theater gets much better life from the same brand of xenons as well.) I also find it very difficult to work at my normal rate of productivity there because of the heat. At the end of a call to his theater, I find the job always takes me longer to complete that it does at theaters that keep the booth at a liveable temperature. I spend most of the time wiping my sweat and trying to make my brain concentrate. It's a ridiculous distraction that not only annoys me, but all of the other projectionists who complain about it every time I talk to them as well as the entire manager staff at the theater. (I'm shocked he still has a job with everyone working there being as angry about it as they are.)

Posted by Jeremy Spracklen (Member # 18) on 06-10-2002, 03:42 PM:

I agree that a hot booth not only has negative effects on the equipment but also has an impact on the productivity of the people working there. I work at a theater one day a week that intentionally keeps the booth hot like this. Not only do I have to spend a large portion of my time wiping off sweat (both from my forehead, and from the print that I was building), but I also have to frequently take breaks to go outside to the refreshingly cool 90 degree weather just to cool down. So, to you who keeps me in this projectionist simulation of hell every week, I have one word for you....JACKASS!!!!

Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 06-10-2002, 09:11 PM:

Brad do you reallthink 70 degrees is optimal IWERKS told me 70 to 74.

------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation

Posted by Darren Crimmins (Member # 1116) on 06-11-2002, 12:19 AM:

I work at the above booth that Brad and Jeremy are mentioning and it is true. That booth is kept WAY TOO HOT. I feel comfortable at around 70-75 degrees. This booth is constantly around 82-85. If we were not running filmguard, I am sure that there would be print damage often. I used to wear long sleeved shirts to work, but that ended quickly. Only t-shirts for me now. I am a naturally warm natured person as far as temperature goes, but even this heat is too much for me. I don't know what can be done, but I sometimes have to go downstairs like Jeremy mentioned just to cool off. And it also does not help when building up prints you have to watch not to get sweat on the film. Booths should be cold, room temperature at the warmest for the films sake.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 06-11-2002, 12:32 AM:

I once worked a booth that was so hot that I passed out during a thread up. When the temperature was measured, we about popped our eyes out. A freaking 122 degrees! I havent been in that kind of heat since I lived in Arizona!

As it turned out, the ventilation system was down.

I like to keep my booth at a comfy 65 degrees. I like it cool baby.

Dave

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-11-2002, 07:29 AM:

The relative humidity is the most significant factor in film curl and any tendency to static buildup. Kodak recommends maintaining a relative humidity between 50 and 60 percent for optimum film handling. It should be monitored using an accurate humidity gauge.

Excess moisture leads to "negative" curl, and the gelatin emulsion becomes sticky and soft. Use a dehumidifer or air conditioning to reduce the humidity.

Very dry conditions cause excessive "positive" curl, and allows static to build up. Heating air (winter heating) reduces the relative humidity. If conditions are too dry, use an evaporative humidifier to add moisture. Do NOT use an ultrasonic or misting humidifier that sprays water into the air --- you will find "salt" deposits from the minerals in the water, and the mist may condense on the film or electronics. Are your lamps properly vented to the outside?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Frank Rapisardi (Member # 435) on 06-11-2002, 07:33 AM:

Try working in a drive-in booth in the summer months,using carbon archs.TALK ABOUT HEAT!!!

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Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 06-11-2002, 08:20 AM:

I would think the self proclaimed "long lost son of satan" wouldn't have a problem with 122 degrees.

I have found that in our booth, humidity plays a bigger role than heat, although I haven't found a good way to maintain a decent level of humidity in the winter. We can run humidifiers all night, but 10 minutes after you flip on the exhaust switches, it's the same as the outside air. I will say, however, that it's been a very long time since we've had a brain wrap caused by static, so maybe the film stock is made a little different lately?

I'm also wondering, do most of you have a seperate HVAC unit for your booth, or do you just rip some air from the auditoriums?

------------------
"Asleep at the switch? I wasn't asleep, I was drunk!" - Homer Simpson

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-11-2002, 09:47 AM:

Chad said: "I will say, however, that it's been a very long time since we've had a brain wrap caused by static, so maybe the film stock is made a little different lately?"

Yes, Kodak VISION Color Print Films have a transparent conductive anti-static layer on the back side of the film:
Technical Data for 2383
Features of 2393
Introduction of Kodak VISION Color Print films

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 06-11-2002, 10:03 AM:

We have no air conditioning or air flow thru our booth at the Skyline drive-in. Our booth is on top of the cinder block snack bar with big picture windows facing directly into the afternoon sun. The building has zero insulation and in the summer gets frightfully HOT ( typically 85 to 95 degrees) and in the winter (theater is closed) the booth will get down to 35 degrees or less! One time it was 110 degrees in the booth and actually melted a drive gear in our Simplex E-7 DURING the show. Our equipment runs VERY hot and I don't like it one bit. Every time I ask the owner about getting an air conditioner he says no we don't need it.

Posted by Ethan Harper (Member # 472) on 06-11-2002, 10:33 AM:

I too work at a booth that is hot. However we are lacking a proper A/C system and a good central exhaust system to allow the heat to exit the lamphouses properly. Hopefully that will change soon as my tech is trying to get a central exhaust system for the booth. I do set my temprature to 60 degrees which for some reason only allows the booth to cool down to an 83 degrees. My boss has instructed to turn it up to 70 degees because the A/C doesnt allow it to go down to 60 degrees. I have had A/C technicians out here already and they said not much could be done. Then again the booth A/C is also sharing with all the corporate offices upstairs and 2 offices downstairs. In the mornings before powering up it is usually a lot colder in the booth. In the winter it really isnt ever a problem simply because it is usually so cold outside anyways. I honestly do prefer it be 70 degrees in the booth just for the sake of the equipment as I actually do care about it. I hope I do get a central exhaust system and all works for the best for the booth as that is my primary concern right now.

Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 06-11-2002, 12:02 PM:

Chad said -I'm also wondering, do most of you have a seperate HVAC unit for your booth, or do you just rip some air from the auditoriums?

My booth used to be tied into a the auditorium HVAC. Our film curled and we scratched . Two months ago the museum purchased a 20000$ HVAC and retrofited so Booth now has a closed system. WE are perfect now. Large format and a linear loop projector require that stability in enviroment or it looks like Kim chee all over the screen. In the shopping center booths I have worked in it Hvac has always been tied into booth and auditorium. Most theater chains just don't understand the importance of humidity and temp.

------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation

Posted by Wes Hughes (Member # 981) on 06-11-2002, 12:53 PM:

One of my booths is not air conditioned...It has three machines. There are plenums from the backs of the the three auditoria to the booth that supply some cooling and make-air for the exhaust blowers, but thats it. It sometimes gets up to nearly 90 in there.

Never had a problem.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 06-11-2002, 03:21 PM:

quote:
Most theater chains just don't understand the importance of humidity and temp.

Bingo.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 06-11-2002, 04:38 PM:

At $20,000 though, I can kinda understand why owners are stubborn. That's a whole lotta dough.

John, whoever was responsible for pushing that anti-static layer, buy them a beer for me. I can't thank them enough.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-11-2002, 09:05 PM:

Chad said: "John, whoever was responsible for pushing that anti-static layer, buy them a beer for me. I can't thank them enough."

I'll share the keg with the team that worked on the Kodak VISION Color Print film technology. I was one of the systems development engineers. Discussion on Internet groups like Film-Tech are a great help to Kodak teams in understanding problems and finding solutions.

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-12-2002, 01:42 AM:

I try to keep my booth at about 65°F
...not that I succeed too often...
My booth has two HVAC units to itself - but they're not truly sufficient capacity for the space in the booth. And on top of that, the insulation was pisspoorly installed. On my desk, I have a small fan labelled "*insert chain's name here* A/C!

". ...and near the desk (on the floor), there's a high velocity fan. Both have been put to a lot of use!
We really noticed how poorly insulated the booth was when there was construction quite literally next door, and they [spray]painted a whole lot of red & white, and we noticed an abnormal amount of dust in the booth that happened to be red & white!

Its nothing strange for booth temperatures to be up around 85°F during the summer, or down to 60°F in the winter. Hence, I dress in layers, so I can adjust to the temperatures as needed! >aggravation-cha-cha-cha!<

Posted by Robert Golding (Member # 746) on 06-12-2002, 04:31 AM:

Drive In's historically have had a problem with A/C. I installed a wall unit several years ago just for the Projector and Lamphouse. I ran a duck over to the projector and also to the input air for the lamphouse. I've doubled the life of my xenon's and the film runs much cooler through the projector.

Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 06-12-2002, 09:19 AM:

John -

It is you that I thank, then. Do you know if Fuji film has developed an anti-static layer similar to the one Kodak uses?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-12-2002, 09:55 AM:

AFAIK, Fuji uses different technology.

Originally, Fujicolor print film had many problems with "static cling", beginning with "American President" in late 1995. There was much discussion in the rec.arts.movies.tech newsgroup at the time. I actually tried to help theatres cope with the problem in an article I wrote for the February 1996 issue of "Film Notes for Reel People" (Kodak Publication H-50-38). (The "Manuals" section of Film-Tech has all the back issues of "Film Notes for Reel People"). Kodak also developed an antistatic additive that most release print film laboratories now add to the final wash in the ECP-2D process that helps ALL color print films.

Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 06-12-2002, 09:20 PM:

When one is paying 12000$ minimum just to get the privilege of playing a print then 20000$ is not to much to pay for an HVAC. The total cost was 35000$ with installation. I am lucky...My administration really cares about and demands nothing short of perfect presentation. Thats why I am in love with BRAD now...He introduced me to FilmGuard and my boss is very happy...;0

------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-14-2002, 09:39 PM:

Electronic equipment LOVES cool. Our Comm room (network servers, telco server, web servers, etc) is always kept at 65 degrees -- I've got a BIG thermoeter on the wall with 60-65 marked in green, 65-70 marked in yellow and 70 to the end of the dial is red.

In the sound studios and television studios, same thing -- a/c going all the time. PLUS the equipment is never turned off either. All the engineers seem to agree that steady-state is better than power on/off cycling. For the engineers who don't like the cold -- and there are some....wear a sweater. The equipment rules.

Frank