Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Big Sky cue detector problem

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-10-2002, 09:52 PM:

Ok boys and girls, check this one out. I have Big Sky consoles, automation, and optical cue detectors. 4 cues is our "lights up" cue for the end credits. On one particular house, all the cues (lights down, show end, etc...) work except lights up. Since other cues work, the problem can't be that the reader is out of alignment. But get this: I can pass a strip of reflective cue tape under the reader four times, and the lights will come up. So the problem can't be that cue line 4 on the automation doesn't work. What is the problem!??

Yes, I have removed the cues and reapplied new ones to verify that there are 4 and make sure they are properly spaced. Yes, they are on the emulsion side, on the frame line, at the center of the film just like all other cues on this print. They still don't work.
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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....

Posted by Bob Brown (Member # 1205) on 06-10-2002, 10:19 PM:

Ken. Sorry we dont use the Big Sky automations just the platters. You can contact them via web at: www.bigskyindustries.net or call Mr. Chuck Shoemaker at 816.737.3269. Hope this helps.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-10-2002, 11:38 PM:

Ken,

Have you tried spacing the foils every other frame line? I know one user out here the does that with their Big Sky cue detectors.

Paul

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-11-2002, 12:00 AM:

Paul, I've thought of that, but I didn't think it would make a difference since the rest of the cues on that print are single spaced. But I'll try it. And if it does work, I'd like to know why that cue requires double spacing but the rest work on single spacing!

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 06-11-2002, 12:30 AM:

That particular cue detector may not be outputing the correct data when 4 cues are detected. Have you swapped the whole cue detector to another machine to see if the problem follows that detector?

Posted by Steven Gorsky (Member # 603) on 06-11-2002, 03:16 AM:

It could be the sensitivity. I worked at a theatre where we would have problems with certain cues, but not all of them. In that case it wouldn't read two cues (credits) correctly, and would interpret it as a single cue (end of show). We had our technician come in, adjust the sensitivity, and it worked perfectly afterwards. Another cue reader developed a similar problem where the cues would seem to eventually "wear out". Replacing the cue foils actually would make the problem go away for a while, but the problem would eventually reappear. Again it turned out to be the sensitivity. In both of these cases when cue tape was waved under the reader it appeared to function fine.

Big Sky has two different cue readers. The first only has one adjustment for sensitivity, adjustment procedures are in the manual. The second supposedly shouldn't be adjusted except by the factory. This one has two adjustments - sensitivity, and the other I think was for contrast. If you have this one get a tech to adjust it - since the manual says not to, and if problems show up later you can't be blamed.

Steven Gorsky

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 06-11-2002, 01:42 PM:

On the frame line??? Ugh!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-11-2002, 01:54 PM:

Thanks Jesse, you beat me to it. Any cue detector that requires the cues to be placed anywhere in the picture area should be junked. Edges only.

Ken, you said it takes FOUR CUES to do the command on the frameline, right? Oh how I detest those! The cues never come off without leaving residue and they look HORRIBLE on screen. Someone designed those without any thought into presentation!

Junk those things and buy a batch of CA21s.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-11-2002, 02:03 PM:

I agree with Brad. As I read this thread I couldn't help but be reminded of the Neumade (?) automations that forum member Jeff Skallan must deal with at his theater. Big Sky sounds like the same thing. They also have 4 or 5 cues in a row just to perform one little thing. And yes they are in the picture area. It really doesn't matter if they are on the frame line or not, just as long as they are evenly spaced. I haven't taken a good look at Jeff's cue readers, but perhaps they could be adjusted to put the cue on the inboard side of the film. Of course I think just the idea of having to put multiple stickers on the film just for a certain function = ass. I'm glad Mann Theaters woke up and got us CA21's instead of the Neumade/Xetron stuff... agree Brad?

Brad was able to mount the CA21 readers so the sticker could be on the edge. Why not other automations?

Posted by Kyle Watkins (Member # 986) on 06-11-2002, 03:44 PM:

The neumade are a pain. I deal with them everyday. We can put on up to 8 cues. and right in the middle they go.

1-end show
2- credits lights mid
3- flat/sr
4- scope/sr
5-surround EX
6- scope only
7- feature lights dim
8- interlock start

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-11-2002, 08:18 PM:

I, too, think the design is crap. I hate seeing the cues on screen, and they do leave residue when removed. But I did not purchase the equipment, and I have no say over what gets installed. So of you have any ideas what the problem could be, I'd appreciate it.

Like the Neumade, the cues don't *have* to be on the frameline, just evenly spaced. I suppose the manual says the frame line just so that they are less visible. I think the readers are basically the same (or very similar) to the Neumade/Xetron. They use the same optical cue tape.

Maybe someone could come up with a way to realign/reposition the reader so that the cues could be placed along the edge of the film?

Posted by Steven Gorsky (Member # 603) on 06-11-2002, 09:05 PM:

The cues being visible, and leaving a residue are the reasons the theatre chain I used to work for had the cues set the way they did. The three and four cue for flat/SR and scope/SR were placed either at the end of the exit snipe, or on the first ad in complete black. Seven cues for lights down was on our policy trailer in black. Two cues for credits/lights mid - placed in black if possible, and one for end of show. In other words it was set-up so the least amount of cues had to go on the print that had to be removed when it left.

One way to make the cues remove easily without a residue is to place them on top of a piece of splicing tape. Regarding repositioning the cue reader - it is probably fairly easy to do. Just a matter of changing the spacers.

Steven Gorsky

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-11-2002, 09:51 PM:

I've thought of placing the cue on top of splicing tape, but four cues is the lights up cue and 5 is the shutdown cue. That's a lot of splicing tape, which I would think would create a noticible jump when it goes through the gate. But I'll give it a try. I could just talk to my GM about having the automation reprogrammed so that the cues that must be removed from the film are only one or two cues rather than four and five like they are now.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-12-2002, 01:50 AM:

Ken, you are a master projection booth tech now. Everyone is relying on you to discover a way to reposition the cue readers so that they can reliably read cues when placed on the inboard edge of the film. You can do it! If you can't, you owe me $1 and you owe Jeff Skallan $20.

Posted by Jeff Skallan (Member # 891) on 06-12-2002, 04:51 AM:

ummm.... sounds good to me Joe! For the most part, if placed correctly, the cues are not noticeable with flat presentations. With scope film, they will be seen. When I first used the Neumade cueing system we had to place 6 for lights at end credits and 7 for shut down. That got old really quick so we then reprogramed the automation to 1 and 2 cues.

I agree that having to peel them off of say the emulsion side of the film is a poor idea. One thing I've done is placed the cue over a very small piece of nonstick artists tape cut the width of the film. This peels easier and has less of a chance to scratch the image surface. The good thing is that the cues will last a long time! I've been reusing fullcoat magnetic film spacers with cues placed after the trailers that have run for more than 5 years. I've never once seen a missed cue.

I've tried cutting down the size of the cue to get twice for the money, but have never been able to get them to work 100% of the time. It would indeed be best to redesign the placement for edge cueing and be able to cut them lengthwise get more cues for the money. Ken is now nominated!

Posted by Steven Gorsky (Member # 603) on 06-12-2002, 09:08 AM:

That would be a lot of splicing tape, that's why the fewer cues for credits/lights to half and end of show the better. Cues on policy trailers, and ads don't have to be removed so they can go on normally.

Steven Gorsky

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-12-2002, 10:12 AM:

Well, then, I suppose I'm up for the challenge. It will be good practice for when I do become a master booth tech, which I will be some day.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 06-12-2002, 01:31 PM:

I worked at a place that used reflective tape, which I hated with a passion. I was able to cut them in half so they would not show on 1.85 movies, but they still showed up on scope requiring hiding them. These things can really ruin the ending of a movie if the lights-up cues show on screen. Sadly when I left the people who are now working there don't see this as a big deal and don't even cut 'em in half anymore.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-12-2002, 05:04 PM:

Ken, the ENTIRE WORLD (and Jeff Skallan) is counting on YOU to deliver a solution quickly! Make those nasty cues disappear from the picture area forever! Don't make me do it for you!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-13-2002, 08:25 AM:

Motion picture laboratories used to either notch or apply foil cues to the printing original to cue the printer to make color balance changes for each scene. This antiquated system has long since been replaced with "frame count cueing", where the changes are based on the frame count from the beginning of each roll, so nothing needs to be done to the film other than measuring the distance from a start mark to each desired change:
http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/support/h1/H1_86-91.pdf
http://www.rtico.com/bhp/pcsii.pdf
http://www.rtico.com/bhp/pcse.pdf
Frame Count Cueing
http://www.duart.com/site_main.html

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 09-20-2002, 12:26 PM:

*bump* once more, with feeling

Posted by Wes Hughes (Member # 981) on 09-20-2002, 12:35 PM:

aren't the big sky readers proximity type? if they are the cues will work on either side of the film. the cues are easier to peel from base side.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 09-20-2002, 06:27 PM:

At the risk of getting shot down, I've seen what you guys can do when you gang up....

I HATE EDGE CUES... there I've said it.....

They cause a noticable picture movment as they go thru the gate and over the int sprocket and they wear with time..... Frameline cues don't cause any movement and suffer no mechanical wear so last a long long time. I have TA10's and the interval / end show cue is on the frame line. As its the most inportant cue it makes sence to have it there. Its the only cue that is ever likley to be left to do its own thing unattended if the duty projectionist is busy elsewhere. So it is important that it is reliable. All other cues are used when the projector is manned so if they miss its not too important and easily corrected manually.

There... I've said it so do your worst!

Oh... to deflect some of the flak... Brad I've just started to use Film Guard :0)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-20-2002, 07:09 PM:

Ken, what kind of edge cue tape are you using? How do you apply it? There are actually multiple ways to apply cues on the edge without it being noticeable, while other ways are VERY noticeable like you pointed out.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-20-2002, 08:43 PM:

Wes: The cues are optical. IR is bounced off them and back at a receiver. So no, they will not work on the base side.

I agree with Ken that edge cues can cause the picture to jump a little, but to me that is better than seeinig four rectangles flashing on the screen. And as Brad said, I'm sure there are ways of "Cues Done Right."

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-20-2002, 09:35 PM:

Is the Big Sky just like the Xetron? If so can you run it sequintially rather then random cues? Then you would only have one piece of cue tape instead of up to eight. For example: pushing the start button would ignite the bulb, start the film, open the douser, dim the lights half way down, and select audio source for previews. First (single)cue at feature start would dim the lights down and change audio if needed. At the beginning of the ending credits, the second (single) cue would bring the lights back up to half light. At the end of the credits, the third (single) cue would bring the lights to full up, switch sound to non sync & close the douser. This way you wouldn't have all of the annoying cues (up to eight in a row), just 3 cues per film. Can you see one cue on a frame line at 24 FPS?

Rick

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-20-2002, 09:42 PM:

Rick, that's a great idea. I did not realize those Xetrons could be set up that way. There are none of them running in this area.

"Can you see one cue on a frame line at 24 FPS?"

Absolutely! It is very easy to see and is equally annoying.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-20-2002, 10:00 PM:

Brad,
That was a feature of the Maxi12. I'm assuming it's the same in the Big Sky automation.

Rick

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-20-2002, 11:29 PM:

If you buy the Maxi12 or early Big Sky automation (they are exactly the same, right down to the gerber artwork) with the cue detector, it can be set to operate in sequential or random mode via a switch ("S1") on the 1-32 PC board. The Maxi12 has a diode matrix, so you can pick which cue number does what "designed-in" function. In random mode, a specific action will occur when a specific number of cues go by; ie: 3 cues - go to flat/sr. In sequential mode, the automation will simply step through a preset list of functions when any number go by: ie: see a cue, perform whatever is set to diode line 1; see another cue, perform whatever is set to diode line 2, etc. When the failsafe detector drops, the automation resets to the beginning.

At Crown Theaters, we decided to use random mode, which is when you place up to eight cues in a row to perform the desired function. As Kyle listed prviously, we set it up as so:

1-end show
2- credits lights mid
3- flat/sr
4- scope/sr
5-surround EX (orginally we had this as flat/a)
6- scope only (orginally we had this as scope/a)
7- feature lights dim
8- interlock start (this function can not be changed)

When we set this up in the very late 1980's we had seen several cue detectors. At that time we thought there was too high of a possibility a cue detector could miss a cue. If running in sequential mode, every function would be wrong (out of step) from then on. We learned this lesson with our Cinemation system. In random mode, if it misses a cue, the next cue will still do the correct function. We also wanted to standardize cues on the print because we would transfer several prints between theaters, equipped with different capabilities. If you remember, at that time there were a mixture of mono trailers, Dolby A, and SR traailers and features and we wanted these to all be cued correctly and automatically.

We put a "3" or a "4" at the end of the exit snipe (first thing shown) so that sets the picture and sound format to follow. We could show a flat trailer in A, then a flat trailer in SR, in any order, then go to a scope feature in A. We use the same exit and policy trailer over and over, so cues only have to be placed on them once, which is why I don't understand why people complain about doing it. This can not be done in sequential mode unless the automation is "diode programmed" for each show - highly impractical.

We put a "7" cue at the beginning of the policy to bring the lights down. We thought that since the features change, we would put the fewest number of cues on the print; a "1" cue to end the show, and a "2" cue for light up at credits. Both the "1" and "2" cue should always be placed after the fade-out and just before the end rating where the image is usually all black to reduce being seen.

Several operators dislike our using random mode, but it was the only solution that allowed the flexibility we needed at the time (hindsight is always 20-20.) Some people want us to change to sequential mode now since it is true that trailers are now avaiable in both flat and scope, always SR, etc. But while I am looking into that, I'm in no hurry to change. For example, we have several CP65's with EX units. How do we make it turn on EX when required? Now, I just put on (or take off) a few cues and where ever the print goes, if there an EX unit, it will work. Besides, it's something that's been around for over 10 years and worked acceptably. Also, sometimes good design means leaving things the way they are because everyone knows it and it has always been that way (closely linked to; "If it ain't broken....").

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 09-21-2002, 04:54 AM:

Brad... the cue foil we use is pre cut aluminium self adhesive. We use this so it is a regular size rather than cutting bits off a roll of foil tape.... I've seen bits of tape big enought to wrap a parcel with!! The cues are approx 20mm x 10mm

They fit perfectly between the edge of the sound track and the edge of the perforations when placed on the frame line. When placed on the perforations we use about a third of a cue and place it in the same orientation in line with a frame line so it is hardly, if at all, noticable.

All are placed on the emulsion side, although the FM35 is able to read from the emulsion side as well. The cues are easy to remove and don't normally leave any residue, unless they have been on for a very long time.

We often get films in with foil applied longways over perforations and it is very difficult to remove without causing some damage to the film itself. On our stock leaders we tape over the edge cues for protection as they get mechanical wear. Some of the leaders we have are well over a year old and have the original cue's still on them.

The other point about edge cues is they cause plops and bangs in analogue. In SRD they can cause reversion even if applied on the inner edge!!

So for me personally edge cues are a no no..... unless you can convince me other wise.

I'd expected a lot more flak from you guys.... I feel left out :0(

Regards Ken.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 09-21-2002, 06:35 AM:

OK, so lets take this "Q" thing into the present century!

If there are time code and frame specific information on the edge of soundtracks, why can't these time codes be used to trigger simple automation?

Certainly the code is ample to sync a digital disc player so why not have it operate that automation controller?

Now there is a method which will not even "touch" the film.

KEN

I know, not all films are printed with the time code.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 09-21-2002, 07:43 AM:

That is a great idea in theory.... but as with all things it's getting everyone to adopt a standard.

It would require a selectable setting to allow for different automation needs... In my case we place the cue 11' from the point I want the shutter to close on the film itself. Some need much much longer for tabs etc. So a 'standard' printed cue would need to be placed say 30' from the end of the picture and each automation would then need some way of adding a delay to suit individual needs.

Then there come's the need to allow for lights at the start of credits and playouts etc etc etc....

If you were to adopt the DTS timecode you would need to know the code itself and have some means of input into the automation to do what you want at the relevant timecode position in the film. What do you do with films that have no timecode on them..... You would end up with a situation where two systems are in operation....

None of these things are impossible but reaching an agreement would be impossible I feel. We all have our own idea of what's best practice and in our way we're all correct when local needs are taken into consideration.

Regards Ken.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 09-21-2002, 10:59 AM:

Pardon my ignorance, but why is it necessary to have the automation handle sound format changes nowadays? I worked at a theater with CP65's and Big Sky automation, and the only cues we ever used were lights up/down, end show and lens change. (We even stopped using the lens change after a while because it wasn't necessary -- everything on the print was either Scope or Flat)

The CP65 would handle all the sound format changes (given we only ran current releases). If it detected SRD, it would change to that. If it detected DTS, it would change to that.

Unless a theater runs rep prints, or trailers/snipes recorded in A or Mono, I really don't see a need to take up a cue setting to switch to "SR" since almost everything is SR nowadays. Then again, I'm probably wrong and everyone will help me understand why! Does EX have to be manually selected?

A note on the Big Sky automation, I detested the fact that they HAD to go on the image area of the emulsion side. What were they thinking??? "Well, given theaters today, customers are probably used to seeing black blotches all over the screen, so why not?" Honestly... We used the genuine Big Sky cue tape at first, which was hard to remove, but it DID come off. Then we changed to some other brand that wasn't labled anywhere once we ran out, and these did not want to come off. You had to work at them like one of those Lottery scratch-off tickets because they would flake apart. Too much damage was being caused to the prints, so we just shipped them back with the cues intact.

As far as every frame vs. every other frame, from a presentation standpoint I think it's better to place them on every frame. That way, when you have seven cues go by, it's a black square for less than half a second. If they're spaced every other frame, you see blink*blink*blink*blink*blink*blink*blink for almost a full second, IMHO being more distracting. To me, it was like saying, "Alright, movie's over! Snap back to reality..."

Yeah, Ken! Hurry up and figure out a way to fix this!

=TMP=

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-21-2002, 11:04 AM:

The theater that I was at when I started this thread chose not to use sequential mode for the same reason most of you have chosen not to. Quite simply, it is not as flexible. It's a lot easier to change the cues on a print than to reprogram the diode jumpers for each show. Also, in sequential mode, if a cue is missed, it screws up the rest of the show. There is no way to manual insert a cue if the cue reader misses it.

quote:
"Can you see one cue on a frame line at 24 FPS?"
Absolutely! It is very easy to see and is equally annoying.

I completely agree.

quote:
It would require a selectable setting to allow for different automation needs... In my case we place the cue 11' from the point I want the shutter to close on the film itself. Some need much much longer for tabs etc. So a 'standard' printed cue would need to be placed say 30' from the end of the picture and each automation would then need some way of adding a delay to suit individual needs.

Well, the sound track is always printed in a standard place on the film and then a delay is adjusted on the processor to make it sync with the picture. Why couldn't something similar be done with cue?

Here's an idea: All that would be required on the time code is the actual time into the feature. Then you would program the "cue processor" to do whatever you want at whatever time you want.

Of course this is just theory. I don't see it becoming standard.

quote:
Does EX have to be manually selected?

Not on the CP650, which has a built-in EX decoder. It detects EX and automatically switches just like it (and other Dolby processors) detect and switch to SRD when present. However, I believe older processors have to be cued for EX.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 09-21-2002, 12:30 PM:

The whole idea of a cue printed into the film in some way is inflexable and really a non starter. Even taking into accounr some of the points I've already made what happens when prints get damaged, additional logo's are added at the start, or even removed... the american rating title is cut from the end of the print when shipped to europe. All of these things will make the idea a non starter.

Whilst each cinema uses a non standard method of cueing a print they at least get it to do what they want with what they have.....

Now, once commerical Digital Cinema is a reality then things can become standardised and a common automation cue can be introduced....

Until then we'll all have to continue doing it 'our way'!!

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 09-21-2002, 03:48 PM:

quote:
If there are time code and frame specific information on the edge of soundtracks, why can't these time codes be used to trigger simple automation?

Beats the hell outta me. DTS worked with Boston Light & Sound on the Jurassic Park II trailer to incorporate strobe lights in selected theaters, based on the timecode. I don't remember specifically how it was done, though. Maybe a DMX recorder.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-21-2002, 05:52 PM:

How many different cues do you put on a film? I would think that the start button would be the first cue to start the cycle, then a "feature" cue at the beginning of the film. Followed by a "credit" cue and finally a "showend" cue. Are you guys switching formats with every trailer?

If you are concerned about the cue detector "missing a cue", wouldn't it be just as likely to miss one out of a possible eight in a row if your running in "random" order? That would be just as bad as missing a single cue, right? When you run it randomly is the detector more reliable?

If you set it up in sequintial order, the only cue that is really criticle is the "feature" cue and the operator is right there to check that the presentation is perfect anyway, right? I guess that I've been lucky with the Maxi12's and not had any problems. If there has been a case of the cue detector "missing" the feature cue, the operator has been right on it and efficiently replaced the cue before any problems.

Rick

Posted by Andrew Walls (Member # 179) on 09-21-2002, 06:55 PM:

Sometimes if your Xetron/Big Sky cue detector sensitivity is too high, it will read any masking tape or stickers attached to the tail of the print as a 1 cue. Depending on what your programming is, this would be the cause of any light or sound format changes after the endshow cue.

- AW

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-21-2002, 08:12 PM:

I think Ken's idea of using DTS code for cues wouldn' be to "hardwire" a cue at a specifice point on the print, but to simply use the code to program whatever cues you need at whatever time you need them. As long as there is code on the film which represents time, the output from the DTS could trigger whatever cues you needed, like strobe lights in JURASSIC PARK or subtitles for foreign films. This of course would require everyone to have a DTS reader and every print to have DTS code -- bet DTS would go for that.

I would also think that in platter operation where there is never any error in frame count because of change-over variations, you could easily setup a tackometer to count frames and use that information to automate anything you want using a cheap computer and some I/O serial port cards. Assuming a reliable tack, you would never have missed cues and, of course, you would never have to put anything at all on the print.

Didn't Dolby, or was it Kodak, at one time had tried a system whereby they put an invisible coating of some sort on the film base that had magnetic properties; the idea was that you could record cues on it? Come to think of it, it was Dolby. Anyone know if this was ever put into general use or did it just stay as a good idea that nobody wanted, like DLP?

Frank

I have seen the light.....and it's Carbon Arc.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-21-2002, 08:32 PM:

If you are relying on DTS for a time code based system for cues, how could you add previews? That would change the time line, and you can't re-record the time code onto the print.

If you use a tach, then you still need a show start and show end cue to tell the tach when to start and stop. Also, if you add or remove a preview then you have to reprogram your automation to tell it what "time" to change functions. And what if you have a film break and you lose some footage? That effects your time base also.

Rick

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-21-2002, 08:43 PM:

Yes, in 1982, Kodak introduced a transparent magnetic coating called DataCode Magnetic Control Surface. It is not currently being used on motion picture film (replaced by Kodak KeyKode edgeprint), but is used to record data on Advantix negatives.
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/about/chrono4.shtml

Here is information about the Kodak Advantix magnetic information exchange technology (IX):
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/cameras/apsWhy.shtml

Some KODAK ADVANTIX Cameras also offer the remarkable magnetic Information Exchange (IX) technology where the camera records data on a magnetic layer of the film. This data is then used by the photofinisher to provide you with better pictures and new services that can’t be found on traditional 35 mm cameras. Here are just a few of the benefits that Information Exchange (IX) offers:

Picture Quality Information Exchange (PQix)
Using IX technology, the camera magnetically records information about the lighting conditions and exposure on the film. With this scene information, the photofinishing lab can make color correction and exposure adjustments to provide you with the results superior to traditional 35 mm cameras. For example, PQix can correct backlit photos so the subject is properly exposed, or correct flash "washout," or correct for artificial lighting so flesh tones appear natural.

Date and Time Labeling
Now every photo can have the date and time that the picture was taken printed on the back of the photo. The information is magnetically recorded on the film and printed on the back of the photo during photofinishing.

Mid-Roll Change (MRC)
On some APS cameras you can rewind a partially exposed film cassette and later reload it and continue shooting from where you left off. This feature allows you to switch to another film speed in mid-roll to match scene requirements or to dedicate individual film rolls to specific subjects.The magnetic Information Exchange (IX) technology allows the camera to automatically advance to the first unexposed frame of a partially exposed film cassette.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-21-2002, 09:27 PM:

To answer the "why use automation to select the sound format" question: it adds quite a bit of flexibility. For example, if you want to run trailers in SR and your CP500 or DA20 is not configured for auto-digital, you can have a format 10 cue at the start of the feature. Also, mono trailers for policy and fire exits are still quite common and they sound very painful in SR. With a CP500, different fader settings can be assigned to different formats, so you can automate a volume increase at the start of the feature.

I suppose that all of this becomes a nonissue of a theatre is equipped for SR only (no digital) and plays only current mainstream releases (which are all likely to be in SR) and never runs shorts or policy trailers (hence no mono/Dolby A material), but that situation is pretty rare. Even generic mall theatres run screenings of older films from time to time.

As for cues being visible on screen: I've mostly worked with Kelmar cue detectors/failsafes (with Maxi-10 automations); the cue "dots" are easy to apply with a special punch tool thingie (that's a technical term), but are very visible in scope (but not 1.85). More recently, I've used the FM-35 failsafe (with TA-10 automation); the cues are more difficult to apply, since the foil tape comes in rolls and must be cut to length, attached to the film, and the perforations punched with a splicer, but most of the cues are invisible or nearly-invisible on screen. I have never worked with an edge-cue system, but I will comment that those cues are often very difficult to remove.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-21-2002, 10:13 PM:

The Kelmar cue puncher can be made to work with an FM-35.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by Lewis Bohannon (Member # 1387) on 09-21-2002, 11:22 PM:

I use optical Que readers myself(Maxi12-pc), and have found that placing the reflective Ques on every other frameline significantly reduces "misread ques" messing up your presentation. I have also found that if even one is a little crooked, or too far left or right, It can cause problems. We use Big Sky brand Que-tape, and yes, it can leave sticky residue on film, but I found Film Guard does a great job of removing it without damaging the print. And if your having trouble getting the Ques lined-up on the film, try using a discarded frame of film, place the que on the tip of one corner and you can line it upand apply it perfectly every time(with pratice!).

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-21-2002, 11:34 PM:

DataCode was a wonderful technology in search of a use. Unfortunately none really came up. Except for the very narrow use of being able to restart a partly used APS cartridge where it left off, I think most of the APS use could be done just as well optically.

But I think the primary expected use was to be in motion pictures, for time code, etc. When it came out I remember wondering why, if this was such a great idea, had we not previously seen conventional mag striping used for this purpose. Not that DC would not have been an improvement and probably a less expensive solution but to me it was evidence that there would probably not be a lot of interest in magnetic data recording, not when this can be done optically. If only they'd checked with me first!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-22-2002, 06:48 AM:

Kodak DID check with customers at the time, who thought Kodak DataCode magnetic control surface was a great idea. But the equipment manufacturers were slow to develop equipment to use it. Today, optical EASTMAN KeyKode edgeprint meets most of the needs, and optical timecode from the camera manufacturers even has limited use.
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/products/keykode/index.shtml

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-22-2002, 12:27 PM:

quote:
How many different cues do you put on a film? I would think that the start button would be the first cue to start the cycle, then a "feature" cue at the beginning of the film. Followed by a "credit" cue and finally a "showend" cue. Are you guys switching formats with every trailer?

IIRC, this was the setup at my last theater (or something very similar to this):

1 = lights down to half & Dolby A (for trailers; Why A? Idunno.)
2 = lights down & SRD
3 = lights down & EX (I know I said the CP650 automatically detects EX. Don't ask my why they set it up this way!!)
4 = lights up full
5 = Show end
6 = flat
7 = scope (these last two would only be used if the trailers were a different aspect ratio than the feature. Very rare today.)
8 = Interlock start (this cannot be changed)

We never switched lens or sound formats with every trailer, but the options are there if we needed them.

quote:
If you are concerned about the cue detector "missing a cue", wouldn't it be just as likely to miss one out of a possible eight in a row if your running in "random" order? That would be just as bad as missing a single cue, right? When you run it randomly is the detector more reliable?

I totally see your point. Yet strangely enough, I have never seen that happen. I have seen them miss entire sets of cues, thus nothing would happen, but I have never seen them miss just one cue in a series, causing some undesired action. Very strange.

quote:
If you set it up in sequintial order, the only cue that is really criticle is the "feature" cue and the operator is right there to check that the presentation is perfect anyway, right?

In theory. But what happens when you have one operator running a 16 plex?

quote:
If you are relying on DTS for a time code based system for cues, how could you add previews? That would change the time line, and you can't re-record the time code onto the print....And what if you have a film break and you lose some footage? That effects your time base also.

Let's say, for example, 3 seconds of footage was lost in the feature, from 1:10:01 through 1:10:04. The time code reader would know that and would adjust accordingly. It's not like it just starts a counter from zero when you press Start. If that were the case, no time code would be needed to keep track of time. But that is the purpose of the time code. (Just like a DTS player knows exactly what part of the CD to play, even if footage from the film is missing.) I don't know if I explained that too well, but that's the best way I could think of to put in words what I'm thinking.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-22-2002, 12:41 PM:

Man, this is getting to complicated for simple-mind cue sensors....just put a projectionist back in the booth!

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-22-2002, 08:52 PM:

Ken,
You quoted my last post, but you edited it. I was talking about a DTS based timecode, and then a tach that would create a time code. If you are using a tach and lose some footage, then your time based sync would be off.

Rick

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-23-2002, 06:58 AM:

True, but if you loose footage, or have to swap out previews, that presumes someone competent is making those changes or splicing out the damage -- you know how many frames you have lost and you tell the computer that is keeping track of the tach to deduct that number. If you swap out trailers, you would have to put the trailer on a frame counter and deduct or add the difference in frame count to the program. Yes it would require some knowledgable tech work, but so does removing and replacing cue tabs, probably in less time. And I contend it would be more reliable than physical cues and a lot more flexible, with the ability to automate anything you could possible think of.

As for a DTS-based system, that too would only require simple reprograming when trailers are added or removed. Since DTS knows everything that it's playing, you would only need to reprogram it with reference to the trailer title -- for example, to <Dim HL to show level> 1:59 sec into ROAD TO PERDITION trailer instead of 1:59 secs into MY BIG FAT GREEK WEDDING. Loss of frames from the feature would be a non-issue for DTS because any loss would be "known" to DTS and have no effect on the programed timebase.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-23-2002, 08:10 PM:

Richard, sorry 'bout that. I didn't realize you were talking about two different things.