This is topic Diagonal Scratches in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-12-2002, 06:49 PM:
I know that small diagonal scratches towards the right side of the screen are "platter scratches." I was just wondering if there is anything else that could cuase this type of scratch. Is there anything at the lab that could cause diagonal scratches before the print even gets to the theater? And is there anythinig in the film path that could cause such scratches? thx.
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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 06-12-2002, 07:04 PM:
What kind of equipment are you running? I had a simplex XL that used to do the same thing just out of the film gate.Dave
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-12-2002, 07:07 PM:
Dave-Please explain. I am curious. Was it a loop problem?
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-12-2002, 07:42 PM:
I have Big Sky P-Series film transport (platters), Kinoton PK60D projectors, and Big Sky failsafes.Sorry, this should have been in FHF.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-12-2002, 08:43 PM:
Generally those type of scratches come from the last roller in the takeup of the platter being too low to where the film rubs up and over the edge of the platter deck. Those rollers should always be as high as possible. Ideally film should be taken up on the platter with the bar raised (speaking of a Christie here, most platters do not offer this option). Then the bar should be slowly lowered until you reach the point where the film lays against the deck. This is the optimum position. Sure the roller can be set lower without scratching, but the lower you go, the better chance your film will get scratched if the deck becomes warped from misuse.To answer your question though, an out of line roller will make those same scratches. That's got to be a pretty badly aligned roller to do that though, so it should take no more than 2 seconds to find it.
The only other thing would be a projector loop scratch, but generally those are toward the middle of the picture and not on the edge.
Moving to FHF.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-12-2002, 09:11 PM:
To my knowledge, the rollers on the tree of Big Sky platters are not adjustable. If it was a platter scatch, it probablly happened during buildup.I thought loop scratches would be vertical, or the dots that rise up the screen.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-12-2002, 09:19 PM:
Ken, I have seen some Brenkerts do the same thing because the film stripper for the intermittant sprocket was sprung all to shit. I suppose it is possible on the XL movement, if the loop is too big. However, I have to admit I never had that happen on the XL.
Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 06-12-2002, 09:21 PM:
I've found it more common to cause those scratches during make-up, because most muts have that last roller adjustable to any heighth, and that's the one that has a tendency of working its way down if its not watched.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-12-2002, 09:27 PM:
Chad, that is why I prefer the old horizontal top MUT's adjusted to the correct fixed height, and fixed so it cannot be re-adjusted either by accident or whatever. Then, I take all those stupid rollers and springs off the horizontal top and toss them in the trash, or use them as spares. I have never seen or damaged a film with scratches by using the straight shot method, and I say "Poop on all those extra un-needed rollers!"
Yes, you might be limited to building up or tearing down on the center platter, but if you plan ahead, there should be no problem. On build up night, I always keep the center platter open for building up or tearing down.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-12-2002, 10:05 PM:
quote:
I've found it more common to cause those scratches during make-up, because most muts have that last roller adjustable to any heighth, and that's the one that has a tendency of working its way down if its not watched.
That's usually what I associate the problem with, but I just wanted to see if there were other causes before I needlesly blame someone for it. Also, I never noticed these scratches when walking the booth, but they were quite noticeable today when I watched this particular movie. So either they were there but I did not see the before, or they are new, which would mean the cause was not building up incorrectly.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-12-2002, 10:21 PM:
Probably a mis-thread or a roller derail....
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-12-2002, 11:00 PM:
Paul, I say poop on MUTs alltogether. Get a Goldberg platter reel for your buildup! 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-12-2002, 11:14 PM:
But Brad, I don't have a bench rewind..... 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-13-2002, 12:36 AM:
You must go nuts when you get in a reel that is tails out.
Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 06-13-2002, 01:22 AM:
Joe, the horizontal muts that paul and I use have two spindles for rewinding. The only problem is that a 6000' reel won't fit on the table with a 2000' on the other spindle.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-13-2002, 04:27 AM:
Paul, I also say poop on theaters without a rewind bench. 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-13-2002, 10:32 AM:
Brad: "Pbpthbpthbthp!" 
The last time I had the luxury of a rewind bench was in an old carbon-arc house.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-13-2002, 10:36 AM:
Paul, you need to start working for a theater that's willing to put some money into the projection booth!
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-13-2002, 12:42 PM:
Hey Joe.....Actually, I use the old CFS tables. I can rewind and repair film on them without any problem. I like them. They are fast, smooth, and reliable. One of these days I'll put a larger top on them so they will handle 2 6000 foot reels. 
One booth of my booths (the one in Stanwood) has a Kelmar bench facility, but I don't like it. Too much farting around to use it. But since that is a Christie booth, I have to use it to rewind a backwards reel or two now and then on build-up nights. It doesn't bother me anymore. I have a kid that puts the shows together. (Yeah - I'm a slacker sometimes)
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-13-2002, 12:58 PM:
Paul a slacker slap your wienie
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-13-2002, 03:44 PM:
Heavens to Mergatroids.... 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-13-2002, 05:24 PM:
Yeah them Kelmar tables are just way too damn complicated. Took me a few weeks to figure 'em out but I finally did. What will they think of next?
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 06-13-2002, 06:11 PM:
Brad, I am going out right now to go poop on a theater that has no rewind bench.Joe, this is back from the start of this thread... i didnt say anything about loops, although I do like froot loops.
As for why my simplex XL would make those scratches out of the gate, it is a little hard to explain, but it was a combination of several variables, but once all repaired and or cleaned, worked like a charm.
Dave
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-13-2002, 06:34 PM:
No bench rewinders? No problem, you guys all have Goldberg Brothers model B rewinders, right? --jhawk
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-13-2002, 11:07 PM:
Yeah - the Kelmar rewinds are really not that complicated, but the thing I don't like about any of those side-saddle rewinds is that you still can't use them to mount a reel on the platter without a bunch of guidance rollers to align the film path. It defeats the purpose. With the old CFS tables ot the Strong tables, all that extra crap that could damage the film is not needed if you limit yourself to build-up and tear down on the center platter.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-13-2002, 11:17 PM:
I've never seen a bench rewind that is horizontal. And what's the big deal about that? The reels shouldn't fall off because they are actually angled about 10 degrees from vertical.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-13-2002, 11:17 PM:
POOP on any kind of rewinding system that has the reels turned horizontally! Oh how I HATE horizontal rewind. Poop, poop, poop! 
Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 06-13-2002, 11:58 PM:
Brad do you need to see a doctor about your constant pooping?
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-14-2002, 12:05 AM:
Sorry, too many weenies.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-14-2002, 01:50 AM:
RTFL!!!!! Jeeze, guys, too much pooping will give you hemorrhoids! 
Ken, it isn't the angle. It is the convenience of a big horizontal table.
And, wait until your private parts get snagged by the spindle of a side-saddle table. That will change your tune.....by about two octaves or so...
If that won't change it, I don't know what will.
Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 06-14-2002, 02:15 AM:
And, wait until your private parts get snagged by the spindle of a side-saddle table. That will change your tune.....by about two octaves or so... I don't know about that but it really hurts when I step on them.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-14-2002, 10:42 AM:
Brad said, "POOP on any kind of rewinding system that has the reels turned horizontally! Oh how I HATE horizontal rewind."That's right. Down with platters!!!!
--jhawk
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-14-2002, 12:47 PM:
Cute attempt there John, but platters don't rewind. I guess you've never heard of them being called a "non-rewind film transport system". You REALLY need to work a platter booth for at least 6 months before you continue to make anti-platter slams. Reels are not always better by default. I've ran both and feel I can honestly state that. You have not and as such have no business making ignorant comments about them.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-14-2002, 12:51 PM:
If you deconstruct a joke, it's not funny.
Yes, I'm well-aware that platters are non-rewind[ing] transport systems.I don't personally feel that platters are better or worse, but I do think there is humor to be had; sorry you didn't appreciate it.
--jhawk
Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 06-14-2002, 01:02 PM:
Thats what smileys are for. 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-14-2002, 01:36 PM:
There is a big difference.
"That's right. Down with platters!!!!"
...is not funny at all and is ignorance working overtime because there are people who actually believe running a film on a platter will ruin it and then praise changeover when the only real difference is that changeovers are not ran by inexperienced popcorn jockeys as platters commonly are. Such is a bullshit comparison and it always will be and that is why it is not funny.
"That's right. Down with platters!!!! "
...although not terribly humorous does have humor value to it with the smiley wink stating you are making a joke.
"Film just gets that way." (referring to film scratches)
Surely you don't agree with that statement, right??? This is no better or worse than your platter crack because there is no emoticon and spreads incorrect information.
"Film just gets that way."
Even if John Pytlak said this himself there would be some humor value to it, as he would at that point obviously be making fun of the large number of people who actually believe that film simply MUST degrade with each run.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-14-2002, 02:07 PM:
Regardless of the lack of smileys, I knew John was joking, and I laughed when I read his post. The humorous discussion of poop on the previous page was a clue that this also was a joke. So poop on this! But please don't poop on my xenon bulb.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-14-2002, 03:31 PM:
Doesn't matter Ken.Thread closed