This is topic Horizontal Make-Up Tables in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-16-2002, 07:24 PM:
 
For the benefit of those who use the horizontal make-up table, I sent some pictures to Brad about how I use it for make-up of previews, as well as using a "straight shot" for mounting and dismounting a print. Several pictures demonstrate the make-up of a complete preview change if it necessary to change them between shows. Usually, I make a whole batch. Please notice I wind them on the table's drive spindle with the Sound Track DOWN because the spindle rotates in the opposite direction. When that is accomplished, I simply remove the old previews from the movie. Then I take the new ones from the MUT, flip them on the platter with the sound track up, and splice them on to the head of the movie. If there is only one or two previews that have to be changed, the same method can be employed.

However, there are two issues that the operator should be aware of. One is sometimes the diameter of the new previews may be bigger than what what was removed, but I have found a way to get around that. The other is some of the state-of-the-art platters that are electronically controlled may not like it, and might fall behind in feeding until the previews are expended on that particular showing. It might be necessary to help it along a little.



The other pictures just show how I use a "straight shot" from the MUT to the platter without using any buffer clusters, springs, rollers, etc. One of those pictures has the appearance that the film is dragging on the platter, but that is a camera parallax error.




 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-17-2002, 01:41 PM:
 
I didn't see any rollers on that MUT. What happens if the middle deck is broken and you have to load up onto another deck? What happens if you have to break a film down and it's not on the middle deck?

BTW, cool idea for a homemade trailer reel! Could you use a larger trailer flange so the platters do not have to be hand spinned while the trailers play through?


 


Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 06-17-2002, 01:48 PM:
 
Brad
Good point on the middle platter only comment.
Reminds me of those crappy Super Platters. In fact his MUT kind of reminds me of those tables and really don't want to see those dogs anymore. Had to deal with four of them in my last theater. Yuk.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-17-2002, 03:25 PM:
 
Well, gentlemen, I keep the center platters in good working order at all times. Even if it is broken, you are hosed anyway if you are running a movie on that machine.

Secondly, if the center platter does break, there are many other center platters to choose from in a multi-plex. Also, if projectionist plans correctly, having a center deck available to do the work with is not an issue.

As a rule, during build-up and tear down nights, I keep the center platter open on as many machines as possible.

Brad, the trailer reel was manufactured by Neumade. And, the reason why you see no rollers on the MUT is because I took them off and threw them away.

Actually for the most part, hand spinning may not be necessary for most platters unless they are grossly out of adjustment. Potts, Film Systems, Strong International, Xetron, or Christie AW-3's. seem to handle it very well if they are somewhat in the ballpark as far as timing is concerned.

Actually, the Christie AW-3 will probably handle it the best because the entire operating reference is not set by a variac like the other older style machines mentioned earlier.

Peter, do you still have those "dogs?" I'll come down and pick them up so I can modify them with bigger tops to handle 2 each 6,000 foot reels. Then they are big enough to use as a work table, too. I have done that to two of them, and the projectionists love them.


 


Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 06-17-2002, 04:01 PM:
 
Peter, watch it with the super platter comments! Except for a blown fuse one day, i've never had a problem with them in the year i've had to use them. As opposed to a particular strong platter system i used this past weekend which tossed the print on me once and had to be helped out the second time!

I haven't had the middle-platter-only be much of an issue, to my own suprise.

Paul, how did you plug the Super Platter MUT into the strong platters for build up? Or are you just breaking down that print? I can't tell.
 


Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 06-17-2002, 04:11 PM:
 
Paul:
Those dog platters are property of Landmark and are in storage somewhere (thank the maker) after being jerked out of the Broadway Market when it closed recently. There are still four "running" at the Crest in North Seattle.
I appreciate your confidence in your platters not breaking down because you do take care of them. Even so I've had mine crap out mid-show, but Supers do wrap tight enough to be able to pick up the remaining film on a board and move it to a good table. Don't you just love those vacuum cleaner motors?
By the way, the previous manager at the Market also took off those roller assemblys that allow you to build on top and bottom and chucked them. Go fiqure!
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-17-2002, 04:17 PM:
 
Adam, the CFS table will handle just about any platter on the market. All that has to be done is an installation of the correct connector for the specific type of platter used. I'll order one for Anacortes.

As for the platter tossing the print, I have traced that to excessive vibration. When the P/O head calls for more film, you can hear the vibration of the drive "O" rings shaking loud enough where the platter's disk lets out a growl with the dish beating on the outriggers. A new set of "O" drive rings and some cork spacers to wedge between the outriggers and the bottom of the platter dish should correct that problem.


 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-17-2002, 04:19 PM:
 
Peter, I cannot deny the tight wrap of the Super Platters, that's for sure. The strong International platters use the same motor, only in a different can.


 


Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 06-17-2002, 04:40 PM:
 
I just thought of a good use for Super Platters.
They'll make good boat anchors for the ferries docking in Puget Sound.
Nuf said.
 
Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 06-17-2002, 05:22 PM:
 
So Paul,
Do I understand that you prefer the horizontal MUT
to the vertical? Is the horizontal approach becoming more widely used,so that it may become standard in new installations?
Gerard
 
Posted by Darren Crimmins (Member # 1116) on 06-17-2002, 07:19 PM:
 
The very first theater I worked at had those horizontal tables and I thought they were great. As long as you plan on Wednesday or Thursday how you were going to have all the movies on middle platters for Friday and save middle platters for build-up, there are no problems. Sometimes I had to move prints from one platter to another to arrange this, but as long as someone can help you and you are organized, its all good.

I like this method because there are no rollers to thread through during build-up to cause any early scratches. The only problem that I had is that there is no back tension, so I would put the movie on 6k reels and use my hand with a rag to provide the tension. In some ways (not all), I prefer the horizontal to the vertical.
 


Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 06-17-2002, 07:25 PM:
 
Paul, do you think that that middle platter tossing problem is somehow related to the fact that that platter gets used for breakdown/buildup almost exclusively (the one on projector 3)? Thats what I've found in Oak Harbor, is that the drive wheel belts need replacing on the middle platters more often.

Even when I had the option of building/tearing down on any platter (with Christie AW3s) i usually used the middle platter anyway. It was the easiest to work off of. This approach just simplifies the process, imho. Plus, i like the fake-marble laminate top on the CFS tables. It adds a touch of class!

 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-17-2002, 07:42 PM:
 
Gerard, yes I do prefer the horizontal MUT's over the vertical. They can be used for practically everything related to building up prints and previews to tearing down. If a new installation happens and if I am "fresh out" of horizontal MUT's, I'll make one.

By the way, Strong uses the horizontal MUT with their platters. I don't care for them because the table sits too low. The use of guidance rollers and other crap is necessary no matter what platter you build on. The other thing I don't like about it...It is just simply physically too small. There is hardly enough room to place a splicer on it. If that table is stripped of all the rollers, springs, and extra junk and then raised somehow to the correct height, the exact same things can be done with it as I am doing with the CFS MUT's. However, a special flange would have to be made to do the previews like I do. The the spindle is too high from the table top.

Adam, the answer is yes and no.

Yes to the fact that it is used more to build a show. But the belts only cost about a buck, and they should be changed when they show signs of wear anyway.

No to the fact that the platter drives are mechanically disconnected by the levers while breaking down a print, and the platters are allowed to free wheel. While dis-mounting a print, "One hand on the throttle and one hand on the brake". Darron just mentioned the technique. Of course, some coordination is required.



 


Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 06-17-2002, 07:47 PM:
 
I have never seen a horizontal MUT before these pictures. looks great. I use the vertical and build up at a very slow speed on the bottom or middle platter. (easier to view.) So I avoid scratches. But I only build up a print once every 6 months so I am not running super speed every thursday at midnight so I can get home and get to bed. 35mm is way faster to build up than 70mm but we have to be oh so careful and gentle with lg format so we actually inch the film onto the platter...

------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation
 


Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-17-2002, 09:16 PM:
 
Paul -- thanks for the tips and pictures. I've never seen/used a horizontal MUT before, but I do like the idea of being able to makeup/breakdown directly to the center deck without having to thread through a bunch of rollers.

Having said that, I can't imagine using something like this in place of a standard rewind bench. Rewind benches serve many purposes and rewinding is only one of them--in a booth without a rewind bench, where do you keep stuff like pens, splicers, sync blocks, show schedules, walkie-talkies, spare film cores, split reels, etc? Ordinarily, all of these items can be found on, above, or below the bench. What do you use as a desk when leaving notes for the next day's operator? How do you inspect prints by running them through your fingers on a horizontal MUT, anyway? If I somehow got stuck in a booth without a proper rewind bench, I'd probably go insane. Actually, I'd probably just bring in a pair of handcrank rewinds and clamp them to a table.
 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-17-2002, 10:30 PM:
 
Peter, if you would like to have me come and visit you, I can show you just how neat the MUT's can be.

Personally, I don't find the CFS to be that bad of a machine. True, if they used the old 1964 Dodge Dart breaker points, well, those were a disaster. But with the new retrofits that were available, they ran great!

The biggest problem with them was not the fault of the machine itself. Projectionists just did not understand how they worked. With any machine that uses the same basic principle, Projectionists might think if there is a pay-out problem, it is a pay-out problem, period. Not so....More often than not, it is a take-up problem that is causing the pay-out problem unless someone had a switch in the wrong position and fried a resistor inside the motor housing. Thus, they never seem to be able to fix the problem.


 


Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-17-2002, 10:59 PM:
 
I, too, cannot imagine a booth without a rewind bench. But only for inspecting film. A desk works fine for all the other stuff.

Paul, I have never seen the trailer flange pictured. Is it part of the table's spindle, or does it fit over the spindle like a regular trailer flange? So you wind trailers onto the flange, which is on the right-hand spindle, and they form a ring, which you can just drop into the print. Is that correct?

Yes, Strong's table is kinda small, and it is hard to work with a splicer, but you can wind 6000-to-6000 without modifying the table.

I like the horizontal design better than the vertical, but maybe that's just because that's what I learned with. And why is it such a problem to thread the film through rollers? I never minded that.
 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-17-2002, 11:25 PM:
 
Scott, the inspection techniques seem a little off-balance at first when the MUT is used. It is easy to deal with once the projectionist gets used to it.

Ken, what you call the trailer flange is the table's spindle.

Yes, the Strong can handle 6,000 foot reels. That's what I like about them, and presently the ONLY thing I like about them.

But soon, my CFS tables will be able to handle them, too.

As far as the roller threading is concerned, too many parts to thread through = possible derailment and film scratches. Seen it happen too many times with too many airheads.

**********************************************************************
Ken also asked:
So you wind trailers onto the flange, which is on the right-hand spindle, and they form a ring, which you can just drop into the print. Is that correct?

Ken, that is correct. But you might have to pull some or all the old trailers off so the new ones will fit. Again, an important note: Wind them sound track down...then flip them so the sound track is up when you drop them in the center and splice them to the head of the movie.
**********************************************************************

Getting back to Adam's comment where he asked:

Paul, how did you plug the Super Platter MUT into the strong platters for build up? Or are you just breaking down that print? I can't tell.

Adam, that answer is this: Any time a film is being built up, the left-hand spindle is used. The right hand spindle is used only during tear-down. Be sure to release the drives on the platter motors. If you don't, you'll overload the MUT motor and blow a fuse. In addition to that, the drive belts on the actual platter motors will quickly fail.
**********************************************************************



 


Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 06-21-2002, 09:04 PM:
 
Paul
In total agreement. For some reason or other our Supers scratched film I got the new centerpiece kits some time ago from Scott Hicks and they seem to cure most of the problem. Only trouble I had was the scratching and that constant on-and-off business where it sometimes took a while to get into go mode. The former manager had one platter throw a print and we believe it was the sudden start. Mylar film didn't seem to want to pull the control arm on soon enough.
Will pay you a visit sometime up there.

AW3 for me now is the only way to go!

 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2002, 01:23 AM:
 
Peter, the AW3 is a beautiful machine, but unfortunately, their MUTS suck because you can't rewind a reel on them. If you don't have a bench rewinder, you are basically screwed unless you can improvise with some off-the-wall contraption. In addition to Christie, many other manufacturers dropped the ball in their design of the MUTS.

I guess most manufacturers assumed a booth comes with a make-up/inspection bench. Unfortunately, this is not true unless it is a hold-over from a manual carbon arc booth. As far as the make-up/inspection bench is concerned, they can be very expensive.

Personally, I prefer the old ones with the hand rewinds on them, along with the old Goldberg electric rewind.

I'll keep the coffee pot on for you.


 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-23-2002, 07:51 PM:
 
Bumping to the top for Pat's Thread on "Rewinding on Make-Up Tables"
 
Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 11-24-2002, 07:58 AM:
 
I use cinemeccanica platter and there Horizontal makup up tables, which are great. On the cinemeccanica MUT we make up the films onto two 6000ft spools then spin the on in two halves. I find you can check the print reel by reel when making them up onto 6000' spools very easily. I dont have to have a seperate motrised rewinder as the MUT does it all. Even fits Tower spools on it to store films fully made up off the platter is very usefull.

Darren
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 11-24-2002, 01:24 PM:
 
Make-up tables have their place. They are very versitile.
 
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 11-24-2002, 02:00 PM:
 
Always been facinated with Platters, but never worked on them. I visited an old 4 screen rebranded Odeon the other day, with four separate projection rooms would you believe. I can see why you like the Cinemeccanica MUT Darren. I was very impressed, also each box had a rewind bench with 6k rewinders. I'm convinced that I would much prefer the Horizontal than the Vertical type MUT.

BTW Paul, what type of microswitches do you use, Industry Standard or Failsafe - Positive Break? I see Cherry do a Type 3 3mm internal contact gap. Just interested!!
 




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