Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: new trailers with cyan s/track ?

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Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 06-18-2002, 06:35 AM:

I got a call today, asking if i had heard about some new trailers released in the eastern states of OZ, that had the new cyan soundtrack, they (?), couldn't run them as they only had an exiter lamp ! . This has caused a bit of a panic in perth and it seems that everyone wants their LED conversion done now just in case they get one of those trailers.
Is this a true story and we should hurry for conversion ?.
OR is this a rumour designed to drum up business/hurry the conversion rate?.
I do remember someone ( john pytlak?) saying they are going to wait for atleast a 75% take up of LED before the announcement of the change over ?.
It was a rushed call ( show coming down), so i didnt get much more info , except, i believe she said these trailers were on STAR WARS?.
Any info would be appreciated!.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-18-2002, 07:55 AM:

I have not heard of any plans for an early launch of cyan dye track (even just for trailers) in Australia. Best estimate for beginning conversion is still early next year, starting with a few selected pictures. If one or more territories already has a high conversion rate to red LED readers, that may hasten the conversion in those territories.

Might those trailers have been ACCIDENTLY processed without analog soundtrack redevelopment? If so, the analog tracks would be either magenta dye only, or magenta+cyan (dark blue) dye, without any silver.
True cyan dye tracks would only have cyan dye (sky blue in color).
Analog Soundtrack Illustrations from Dolby Website

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 06-18-2002, 10:02 AM:

Thanks for the reply john, your replies are always informative!.
I personally feel that this story MIGHT have some truth to it, but as what most often happens, the fact's get mis-quoted or blown out of proportion!.
The company i work for were going to wait until the last minute to convert, this story might be a blessing in disguise for us, as i would love to convert now and be ready for it when it does happen.
Still, if anyone has any facts on this particular story i would love to get the full story?.

Posted by Bob Brown (Member # 1205) on 06-18-2002, 10:32 AM:

John
Could you explain why they are switching to this format?

Thanks

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 06-18-2002, 10:36 AM:

to save john the time, there has been plenty of threads dedicated to this topic in the film handlers forum, all interesting reading.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-18-2002, 01:11 PM:

Here are some links about silverless analog soundtracks:
http://www.dyetracks.org/ (Contains links to many resources)
http://www.componentengineering.com/webdocs/whydyetracks.pdf
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/dyetrack.shtml
http://www.dolby.com/tech/ci.os.0012.reddye.html
http://www.dolby.com/tech/ci.ot.0012.ScanRev.html
http://www.uslinc.com/forum/index.htm
http://www.uslinc.com/products/led.htm

Here is the way silver is currently "redeveloped" in the analog soundtrack area:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_05.shtml

The process of applying a viscous bead of caustic developer to only the soundtrack area of the wet print film traveling at hundreds of metres per minute through a processing machine is a challenge! If the developer bleeds or splashes into the picture area, it leaves a "stain" of silver. If there are bubbles or variations in the developer, there may be "pops" and other noise in the sound. If the developer is not applied, you have no silver left in the soundtrack. Although these problems are relatively infrequent, they do occur, and are a significant source of print replacement and waste. There is also increasing regulation of hydroquinone (B&W developing agent) and silver in the environment, especially in some European countries. The fresh water required to "wash off" the soundtrack developer is a significant portion of the water used in film processing.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-18-2002, 06:21 PM:

Perhaps slightly OT, but I thought emulsion is water-soluable. If water is used to wash off the soundtrack developer, how does it not dissolve the emulsion??

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 06-18-2002, 10:02 PM:

Ken,

A final washing bath is used I believe to remove any traces of developer from the film. getting the print wet will cause the emulsion to swell, making it easier for absorbtion.

Also noted elseware on the site, and on Kodak's website, the Cyan tracks do have a lower signal to noise ratio(2 DB lower is the average) making it more dependant on Dolby SR noise reduction.

Why of all colors did they choose cyan? it is the most prone to fading. Why not magenta, after all, its always the cyan layer that begins to fade first.

Josh

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-18-2002, 10:27 PM:

Gelatin emulsions are "hardened" so they can be processed in very warm aqueous processing solutions. Washes are used to remove residual processing chemicals like developer and fixer. Silver is efficiently recovered from the fixer and washes.

Red light (most efficient LEDs) is best modulated by cyan dye. The cyan dye used in Kodak print films today is much more stable than the cyan dyes used before the early 1980's.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-19-2002, 12:24 AM:

Hi Brad

Maybe they were referring to the Scope versions of Minority Report. The Dolby Digital has a very higfh error rate 7-F but the SR track is just appalling! I had better sound at the drive in using tube amps 25 years ago than what these things give out of their SR tracks.

Just a thought...

PS: I've also heard nothing about changing to cyan.

John

------------------
Too much of the rest of the film is given over to a romance between Padme and Anakin in which they're incapable of uttering anything other than the most basic and weary romantic cliches, while regarding each other as if love was something to be endured rather than cherished. There is not a romantic word they exchange that has not long since been reduced to cliche.

No, wait: Anakin tells Padme at one point: "I don't like the sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating--not like you. You're soft and smooth." I hadn't heard that before.

- Roger Ebert reviewing Episode 2. :)

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 06-19-2002, 12:51 AM:

Thanks John,

That does sound like a possibillity.
i'm sure that by the time my cinema (art house) get's a cyan soundtrack, it would have been well publicised, especially on film-tech !

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-19-2002, 06:37 AM:

This is an oddity...the Minority Report print I ran had Dolby Digital rates in 1-2 range with the occasional 3....and this from a basement reader! Of course this was a USA print so your printing may vary...just that normally we get the "junk."

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-19-2002, 07:19 AM:

If BOTH the Dolby Digital and Dolby SR tracks are poor, I suspect there may have been some slippage in the printer. Look at the Dolby Digital "bits" with a good magnifier/microscope, and compare them to a known good print. Are the bits clearly defined, or do they seem to be "smeared"?

It's likely the sound negatives for each lab worldwide were made at the same time, so it's less likely the problem lies there.

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 06-19-2002, 11:15 AM:

An update .
I again spoke with the person who called me and she was told that ATLAB (australia) have been printing some features and trailers with the cyan soundtrack. Unless someone can verify this, it's safe to say this is a rumour (and doubtful at that!)?.
Actually, i will give them a call tomorrow and see what they say?.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 06-19-2002, 01:41 PM:

quote:
This is an oddity...the Minority Report print I ran had Dolby Digital rates in 1-2 range with the occasional 3....and this from a basement reader! Of course this was a USA print so your printing may vary...just that normally we get the "junk."
Steve

I think John was refering to trailers not the actual print.

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 06-24-2002, 07:34 AM:

I just got an email from ATLAB .
Atlab says that this is definitly a rumour, atlab are not printing any films/trailers with cyan soundtracks, yet!, and will not print any untill the distributers ask them to, which probably will not be untill there is a higher percentage of conversion.
Apparently it's us smaller chains dragging behind!, i know for a fact that our company will NOT convert untill they have to, we have begged for conversion many times and even with this rumour going around they still wont budge

.
Thanks to dominic from ATLAB with the info! , it's good to know that atlab are reading film-tech!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-24-2002, 07:37 AM:

The labs will continue to print fully reprocessed tracks until demand for cyan increases.
The distributors will not order cyan prints until the vast majority of cinemas have converted to LEDs.
Cinemas will not convert to LEDs while prints with fully reprocessed tracks continue to be available.

Sounds like we're in an endless loop here...

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-24-2002, 09:33 AM:

Again, here's a link to the latest "official" information:
http://www.dyetracks.org

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-24-2002, 11:32 AM:

Wow, John.

The minutes of the ITEA meeting suggest a date of 1 January 2003. I had no idea it was that aggressive.

Has Miramax indeed started flyering their prints for 100% cyan by years-end? I haven't seen them, but we often don't see flyers in prints by the time they get to us.

--jhawk

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-24-2002, 12:18 PM:

I really don't see this happening by next year, despite what all the committees seem to be saying, unless the distributors really want the headaches of dual-inventory prints. There are just too many theatres that aren't yet equipped for dye-track playback.

In the Boston area alone, there are quite a few first-run houses that have either exciter lamps or invisible-light LED readers that won't play dye tracks. I doubt that the situation is much different in other markets, except maybe those where most theatres were built in the last few years and where new equipment was installed.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-24-2002, 01:18 PM:

At Cine Expo in Amsterdam this week, Ioan Allen, convenor of the Dye Track Committee, reported that at a recent National Association of Theatre Owners board meeting, a decision was made to set themselves a target of having NATO theatres 100% red light-equipped by July 2003.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 06-24-2002, 01:32 PM:

The labs will continue to print fully reprocessed tracks until demand for cyan increases.

The distributors will not order cyan prints until the vast majority of cinemas have converted to LEDs.

[li]

Cinemas will not convert to LEDs while prints with fully reprocessed tracks continue to be available.
Sounds like we're in an endless loop here...[/li]

Exactly.

Cinemas won't upgrade untill film is being printed in cyan track.

Labs won't print (be told to print) in cyan track untill cinemas have upgraded.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-24-2002, 02:09 PM:

There are precedents that required theatres to upgrade in order to properly present new prints:

Introduction of CinemaScope

Dolby A to Dolby SR

In neither case had 100% of theatres converted before the change was implemented by the distributors.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-24-2002, 05:18 PM:

While CinemaScope did/does require a theatre to purchase equipment to properly play the film...it was introduced when everyone wanted to distance themselves (distributers, exhibitors...etc) from TV...cyan does not have that....there is no technological improvement and the financial benefits do not help those that have to spend the money.

As to Dolby SR...do you want to tour the country to see how many DIDN'T convert? HEck there is still mono theatres out there. SR only gained "universal" acceptance when digital did.

Cyan, on the otherhand, doesn't offer even the advertising appeal that SR, theoretically did (most customers wouldn't know what the big deal is with SR). Cyan offers inferior performance (noise and distortion) with, at best, dubious enviromental benefits, so low that the EPA doesn't have it on the radar.

Cyan is coming up with very little to offer and WAY too late in the life of film. It should be shunned as technology run amuck. Covnentional redeveloped tracks with an IR or white light STILL are the best performers of optical soundtracks.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-25-2002, 07:30 AM:

The environmental advantages (elimination of hydroquinone, water conservation, complete recycling of silver from the film) of cyan dye tracks are real. Likewise, the problems associated with silver redevelopment have been a significant source of print waste and quality problems for almost 50 years. Red LED readers have finally allowed the elimination of this cumbersome process.

Water conservation is on "the radar":
http://www.ioe.ucla.edu/publications/report98/water.html
http://www.monolake.org/waterpolicy/outsidebox.htm

As is efficient silver recovery:
http://www.calgold.ca.gov/P2/812921.htm

As is hydroquinone:
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/hydroqui.html

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-25-2002, 07:23 PM:

I must've missed something. NATO? What is in it for the exhibitor?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-26-2002, 12:03 AM:

The environmental impact is negligable. But ok, lets say we are going to put the alleged environmental impact (as some see it) above all else and our standards of living should be continued to be reduced...

Lets cut to the chase, lets get the government to ELIMINATE FILM...after all one thing DCinema definately has over FILM and and it's associated processing is that DCinema has FAR-FAR less environmental impact than FILM. Elimination of film will also eliminate print waste due to application problems too! I mean, just what isn't there to like about it concept?

I know! Because, at the moment, film is BETTER than DCinema. I don't like to degrade society, they do it on their own just fine. I look at the Cyan argument with the same disdain as the "Digital is best" arguement, they are both engineering at it's worst. They offer the civilization a reduction in quality. Technology should make the quality BETTER not worse. Cyan makes the quality worse.

When DCinema surpasses film in image quality (and I believe it will someday), the cyan arguement will be moot. Until then, the applicated soundtrack should ride out film's days as the medium of choice. In fact, lets loose the high-magenta BS and and get everyone to switch over to IR LEDs. They last longer and sound better! It's a win-win situation.

Now, let me review the photos I took on my weekend family reunion...and yes, I photographed them on genuine Kodak FILM (ASA 100, 200 and 400)...let the chemicals pour!

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-26-2002, 02:39 AM:

First off, John wrote that the cyan situation has precedents in the form of CinemaScope and SR. IMHO, those comparisons are valid up to a certain point. All three are technologies which require(d) money to be spent at the point of exhibition. All have (had) the potential to 'improve' the quality of cinema exhibition as judged by the lay customer.

The key difference as I see it is that of backwards compatibility. A projector modified to show CinemaScope could also be used to screen films in other ratios, which was a key reason why VistaVision and 70mm systems which predated the introduction of dual-gauge projectors (e.g. Fox Grandeur in the early 1930s) failed. An SR print can be played through an mono or A-type sound system. But a cyan print will not play with an incandescent exciter bulb. And that's where the endless loop comes in.

I take Steve G's point about potential reproduction issues, but I would agree with John that any definition of 'better' or 'worse' has to include the criterion of environmental impact. If technology B can achieve roughly the same result as technology A but causes significantly less environmental damage, I'm all for technology B. The problem is that many environmentally friendly technologies have been forcibly introduced by governments without much thought as to who is going to pay for them, and without something similar here I can't see cyan making headway.

I too was wondering whether digital cinema would effectively kick cyan into touch. If exhibitors are sitting there wondering when they'll have to get get electronic projectors, they must surely be wondering if it's worth investing in upgrading their 35mm machines, especially as at the moment, they seem to have the economic power to prevent the introduction of cyan prints.

Finally, spare a thought for the poor archivists who, if this technology does come in, will one day need to develop technologies for re-recording these soundtracks, not to mention maintaining equipment to play back the hundreds of thousands of viewing copies with fully redeveloped soundtracks sitting in vaults the world over...

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-26-2002, 09:31 AM:

Steve said: "...after all one thing DCinema definately has over FILM and and it's associated processing is that DCinema has FAR-FAR less environmental impact than FILM."

The electronics industry has a host of its' own environmental issues to deal with too:
Electronics Industry Environmental Impact
http://www.csa.com/routenet/epan/elecmpsnIIIa.html

And did you ever think of the environmental impact of those rockets used to launch communication satellites? Even "space junk" is becoming a real issue:
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/junk_iss_020107.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98jul/junk.htm

Steve also said: "Technology should make the quality BETTER not worse. Cyan makes the quality worse."

Yes, there are tradeoffs. But there ARE significant quality advantages too.

Steve also said: "When DCinema surpasses film in image quality (and I believe it will someday), the cyan arguement will be moot. Until then, the applicated soundtrack should ride out film's days as the medium of choice."

If some exhibitors have this much difficulty converting to red LED readers because of cost, how will they ever accept the much more expensive conversion to digital cinema? IMHO, film WILL be "the medium of choice" for years to come, so investment and improvement in the film system is still worthwhile.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-26-2002, 10:03 AM:

Leo said:

"Finally, spare a thought for the poor archivists who, if this technology does come in, will one day need to develop technologies for re-recording these soundtracks, not to mention maintaining equipment to play back the hundreds of thousands of viewing copies with fully redeveloped soundtracks sitting in vaults the world over..."

The majority of theatres today are using red LED readers to play dye+silver (redeveloped) soundtracks already. Older optical track formats (e.g., variable density) are compatible with red LED readers --- Jess Daily of the UCLA Film Archive has run tests on a wide variety of archived prints and presented results to the Dye Track Committee.

Laboratories specializing in printing archived sound negatives would likely maintain the capability of making prints with dye+silver soundtracks.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-26-2002, 10:26 AM:

John said (I guess this is a he-said, he-said issue

)

>>"The electronics industry has a host of its' own environmental issues to deal with too: Electronics Industry Environmental."<<

Sure, but once the projector is made, it won't have to be replaced for another 5 years ...a film print is something that lasts less than one showing according to some and most are trashed in less than a year. The environmental waste of the medium of DCinema (CDs or the stupid idea over the air) has less impact.

>>"And did you ever think of the environmental impact of those rockets used to launch communication satellites? Even "space junk" is becoming a real issue"<<

Personally, I don't buy into the alleged environmental impacts most envirowackos though out, popular opinion, or not. But even so, the cost both $$$ and environmental still sides with silicon, not film.

Everything pollutes, even people. It is a matter of what society wants to have for freedom, comfort and such versus a perceived environmental problem. You may see an environment problem, I do not.

">>Yes, there are tradeoffs. But there ARE significant quality advantages too."<<

There are virtually NO quality advantages...about the only thing you can throw up is rejection rate due to poor application. Presumming a properly applicated soundtrack, the cyan track is at best 2nd rate. Also, cyan is typically the first dye to fade, what a great concept for longevity. What will the signal level be in 10 years, 20, 30....? How about abrasion (and don't give me your limited studies of acceptability) I mean stand it up toe-to-toe with an applicated soundtrack running months, how does the noise compare? A scratch on either side of a cyan print will be read as a scratch anywhere in the soundtrack area. The current LED lights are quite collimated, any scratch presents a hard line and more noise.

>>"If some exhibitors have this much difficulty converting to red LED readers because of cost, how will they ever accept the much more expensive conversion to digital cinema? IMHO, film WILL be "the medium of choice" for years to come, so investment and improvement in the film system is still worthwhile."<<

It is partially the money but there is NO improvement for the exhibitor, just a drop in quality. There is no selling point to the cyan track/red light based on just the red light. Now, most of the systems have a reverse scan reader, that is something that CAN be sold. It will improve the analog soundtrack. Also, those theatres that upgraded to digital sound see the analog track as just the backup, why invest anything more than the bare minimum into it?

As to Jess' research...baloney. A red reader playing a conventional analog track is so harsh as to be unacceptable (cross mod distortion)...unless you have one of the few films that seems to play ok. Furthermore, I have one exhibitor that does play older films and they had me install an IR LED to overcome the fact the RED LED just wouldn't play some of their films.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-26-2002, 12:18 PM:

Kodak continuously works to improve its products and processes to help protect the environment:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/environment/index.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/hse/indexNoSurvey.jhtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/hse/manuf.jhtml
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/fsc/fsc_main.html
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/students/onCampus/jan2002/recycle.shtml

I'm glad Kodak puts a priority on environmental responsibility, and doesn't settle for the status quo, "It's always been done that way", attitude.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 06-28-2002, 10:45 AM:

I have to say I agree with Steve, AND John.

You have to admire any attempt to reduce pollution in an already seriously polluted world, and it is clear that there is no significant financial benefit for Kodak in changing to cyan soundtracks. It is also patently obvious to anyone with even a most modest degree of technical knowledege, that changing to cyan results in a reduction in the quality of analog soundtracks. So, one must ask what is the benefit for a company like Dolby, who do not make or develop film stock, in promoting a change to cyan soundtracks? Ioan Allen has been at the forefront of promoting this technology and we must all ask WHY?? Some stroke of altruism in Ray Dolby's old age? Hardly! You do not have to look very far to see the answer. For a company that has spent much of it's existence trying to monopolise the film industry there are clear and significant financial benefits from forcing a change to red light readers. Until recently, every manufacturer of red light readers has had to buy it's essential parts from, guess who? Yes, they even hold a (seriously dubious) patent on using a red light source for a reverse scan reader!

So why are we really changing to cyan? I'll give you one more guess.

Sour grapes from a competing manufacturer? Naaah! We make better processors anyway. Just an excercise in freedom of speech!

Ray

This comment represents a personal view and is not necessarily the view of the company that (reluctantly) employs me.

------------------------------------------
"Old projectionists never changeover, they just forget to push the button!"

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-28-2002, 11:28 AM:

Steve wrote: >A red reader playing a conventional analog track is so harsh as to be unacceptable (cross mod distortion)...unless you have one of the few films that seems to play ok. Furthermore, I have one exhibitor that does play older films and they had me install an IR LED to overcome the fact the RED LED just wouldn't play some of their films. <

So Steve,

You're saying, forgetting about cyan tracks, that even on conventional tracks a "white reader" would be superior to a reverse scan red reader? We play old prints. Would I be better off exchanging the Kelmar red reader for what? Who makes infra-red readers? Or would it be better for me to go back to a standard exiter and just get one of those new super-fine slit lenses that became available just before reverse scan became the hot new toy?

Frank

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 12:14 PM:

Red LED readers were the technology that enabled reconsideration of dye soundtracks, not the other way around. Previous work with filtered tungsten sources or visual-response photocells fell short of the needed quality. The driving force for reverse scan red LED readers is the improvement in stability and quality. The ability to also play cyan dye tracks is an added benefit.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 12:20 PM:

Frank Angel said: "We play old prints. Would I be better off exchanging the Kelmar red reader for what?"

Frank: Knowing that you do care about quality, are YOU satisfied with the quality of analog sound you are getting from your Kelmar Red LED readers? Are your audiences satisfied? Are the Kelmar readers an improvement over what you had before? Have any prints with older soundtracks presented a problem?

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 06-28-2002, 12:26 PM:

Frank, not wishing to pre-empt Steve's reply, but I don't believe he mentioned "white readers". What he did say in effect is that infra-red LED reverse scan readers give a superior result to red LED reverse scan readers, even with conventional silvered soundtracks. Also reverse scan is not a "hot new toy". They have been around since what? the 1930's? and have always provided far superior results to forward scan systems.

An infra-red LED reverse scan reader is identical in every respect to a red LED reverse scan reader except for the colour of the LED, a colour change that Dolby miraculously managed to obtain a patent for. (I love to labour that point).

An infra-red light source provides the best signal-to-noise performance because solar cells are most sensitive in this area of the spectrum. Also some older soundtrack formats like magenta variable density will not play satisfactorily on a red LED reader, obviously Jess forgot to test that type of track (or maybe was he encouraged to ignore it?).

I suspect that you may still be able to buy infra-red LEDs from Kelmar (who orignally made the infra-red readers) and fit them to your red LED readers. However an infra-red system will not read a cyan track.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 12:43 PM:

Ray Derrick said: "Also some older soundtrack formats like magenta variable density will not play satisfactorily on a red LED reader"

A magenta dye-only track will not play well on an IR reader either. To my knowledge, Jess Daily tested the wide variety of old tracks he had access to in the UCLA film archive, and was not constrained by anyone.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 06-28-2002, 01:28 PM:

John, I was kidding about Jess being encouraged to ignore magenta variable density tracks! (Sorry that is just my Aussie sense of humour). We have found that magenta variable density plays far better with infra-red than red. But I agree still not as well as with a conventional exiter lamp.

Ray

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 02:25 PM:

How widely used were the old magenta variable density tracks? Which labs made them and why? I thought most previous work on dye tracks (e.g. Technicolor WWII tracks) was cyan.
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/soundsamples.htm

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-28-2002, 07:57 PM:

My, my, my...

Ray is right and I though I had stated it earlier...DO NOT CONFUSE REVERSE SCAN with Red readers...they have nothing to do with each other...The fact that most of the red readers include the reverse scan was necessary to sell the idiotic concept. In fact, the first step in the plot WAS IR LEDs on reverse scan readers. Then the sudden shift to RED LEDs. An IR led with a good reverse scan reader and a good conventional analog soundtrack with Dolby-SR is indeed the best the SVA track has ever seen (heard).

I have my own opinions as to why Dolby and Kodak are so eager to force 2nd-rate red readers on everyone but I do not wish, nor feel I can express them here.

But back to the issue at hand. If you are a rep/art house and you play a lot of older film, I would STRONGLY recommend you switch from a red LED to an IR LED (keep your red LED in case the the stupid cyan thing takes hold if you want). Be prepaired though...you will have to reduce your gain (further increasing the S/N of your system) and guess what? You Dolby level will be VASTLY more stable over many thousands of hours.

As to sourcing IR LEDs you can check with Kelmar, Component Engineering or even Dolby labs (Dolby part number 32054).

Until the unlikely day cyan tracks infect the planet, you have virtually nothing to lose in this. IR LEDs will play all of the current soundtracks (conventional and Hi-Magenta) as well as B&W.

I have found that the polarity of the IR LEDs is opposite of the visible red ones so be careful when you switch (if you switch).

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 08:25 PM:

Steve said: "I have my own opinions as to why Dolby and Kodak are so eager..."

The only conspiracy is to improve the environment. All three major print film manufacturers support the conversion to cyan dye tracks. Although not yet compelled by regulations, the environmental advantages ARE compelling.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 06-28-2002, 09:04 PM:

John, I should probably be using the term "high magenta" in relation to these variable density tracks (as Steve so subtly points out) because they would probably be silver redeveloped, if that was the norm for variable density. However I am not sure that the colour involved is always pure magenta. Some of these old tracks have been reported as having a brownish-red colour, others a more redish-blue. As to how widespread, I would say not very widespread at all, but there do seem to be a significant enough number of such prints still in circulation to pose a real problem for arthouses etc, because when played on a red LED the sound is not only low level but severely distorted and the frequency response shrill and unpleasant.

Without having had the opportunity to test a piece of this type of soundtrack myself I have put it down to some linearity incompatibility with 660nm red light or it may also be related to the extremely narrow slit size in reverse scan readers or as I think you may have suggested in the past, cross mod characteristics, but without test results this is just conjecture on my part, this is your department rather than mine. However in every case, reverting the system to the former exciter lamp system restores the soundtrack to it's former glory and installing a infrared LED seems to improve it substantially over a red LED system.

As these films go way back before my involvement with cinema sound I have no idea which labs printed them, but I am aware of the existence of a variety of material in this format still floating around Australia, including feature films like "40,000 Horsemen" through to short pieces like the OLD Australian national anthem "God save the queen". So it is possible that at least a proportion of these films were printed downunder.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 06-28-2002, 09:12 PM:

Also John you stated earlier "The driving force for reverse scan red LED readers is the improvement in stability and quality". Could you please elaborate on how cyan will improve stability and quality?

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-28-2002, 09:16 PM:

The stability and quality comes from the reverse scan. The environmental advantages come from eliminating the need to redevelop silver.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-28-2002, 09:42 PM:

I problem I have with how the cyan issue is presented is that it is somehow alluded that cyan is the part that is responsible for the statability or improvements. When in fact, it is the reverse scan. The only thing cyan bring to the table is the environmental impact to which John and I have expressed opposing opinions as to the severity.

I do accept that some amount of print waste is attributable to the redevelopment process. Since I personally don't feel the environmental impact of the redevelopment process is significant, the only positive thing I can see in cyan is the saving of wasted prints...certainly keeping cameras away from some directors/producers would save more prints but I digress. We would probably save the most prints by imposing stiff penalties for damaging prints. Imagine if exhibitors got billed for damage they caused to the prints while in their "care."

Cyan soundtracks are at best 2nd rate and I haven't seen any convincing arguement for adopting them though I have seen (and spouted) many arguements against them.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 06-28-2002, 11:59 PM:

Here, here!

I guess my final word on this is that at least the threat of cyan has forced a lot of cinemas to upgrade the quality of their analog sound by installing modern reverse scan systems, albeit with red LEDs. This is something they otherwise would probably not have done and therefore it must be considered a very good thing. Lets just hope, for the good of high quality audio, that the threat always remains just that, environmental considerations notwithstanding.

As far as conspiracies go I don't think anyone is suggesting a conspiracy, but there are clearly vested interests involved with the introduction of cyan, and whilst there is nothing wrong with vested interests, in a democracy they should always be honestly and fully disclosed and not disguised behind some altruistic claptrap. (Politicians take note).

End of editorial.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-29-2002, 07:17 AM:

I know that Steve has visited a smaller print lab, and so feels "some amount of print waste is attributable to the redevelopment process" but dismisses it as not significant. But if you visit one of the high volume release print labs, you will see that putting that narrow bead of viscous caustic developer in just the soundtrack area of a wet print moving hundreds of metres per minute, keeping it from moving around while the silver develops, and then washing it off completely, is a real challenge. Members of Film-Tech have repeatedly received prints with silver splotches and bleeding (stain along the left side of the image), pops in the sound, and even accidental skips in the application. Even a few tenths of a percent of prints affected with these problems is a significant source of waste, especially when multiplied by the likely over 10 BILLION feet of release prints processed each year. Plus the added environmental impact of the hydroquinone and extra water needed to wash off the developer. Kodak's subsidiary FPC helps the movie industry recycle prints, recovering most of the silver. But in many parts of the world, silver-laden old prints are still burned or landfilled.

Analog silver soundtrack redevelopment was invented in the early 1950's when print orders numbered in the low hundreds. Its' deficiencies are painfully obvious in today's world of print orders in the high thousands.

The implied "conspiracy" or "vested interests" are unfair. The meetings of the Dye Track Committee are open to all, and are regularly held at readily accessible industry gatherings like ShoWest, ShowEast and ITEA, as well as overseas. Data has been shared and published, even when deficiencies are found. If anything, the Committee has been criticized for moving too slowly in not "forcing" the installation of red LED readers.

Looking at the "big picture", I feel the advantages of cyan dye soundtracks far outweigh the disadvantages.

Here is the Dye Track Committee website:

http://www.dyetracks.org

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-29-2002, 09:40 AM:

Ah, but the lab & spoiled print issues originated not because of an inherent deficiency in the applicated print but by the labs cranking up the processing speeds to such extremes without totally getting the bugs out of application. So rather than fix the manufacturing process the product is to be altered to an admittedly inferior design to suit. I suppose that is not uncommon in industry but I would guess that it *is* uncommon that another industry is going to have to experience a huge conversion to accept the new, technically inferior product.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-29-2002, 09:49 AM:

The labs do a very good job, even at the higher speeds. But a few tenths of a percent of 10 BILLION feet is still millions of feet of wasted film. And, believe it or not, the film industry does try to help the environment.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2002, 10:16 AM:

Perhaps they should just run the labs a bit slower...these high speeds/print orders have forced them to omit the step printing of itermediates which result in unsteady pictures. Also the practice of bi-directional printing results in framing that changes at random on a reel-by-reel basis.

The problem isn't with the application, the problem is too many screens demanding too many prints. Get rid of them and you will have more viable businesses and less waste. Once upon a time, you got one print per theatre, now you get 5 and the guy across the street gets 5 as well.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-29-2002, 10:26 AM:

Reality says that is unlikely to change. Labs are being asked to turn out thousands of prints within days of receiving the final cut negative, and to reduce print costs. The more prints in circulation, the faster the distributors' money is recouped, and the faster the video revenues can start. Like it or not, this is the movie BUSINESS, where art and technology are important, but sometimes secondary to other factors.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2002, 10:39 AM:

Reality says...

This industry will NEVER change to cyan...it has never adopted any format that isn't backwards compatible conform to the 24-frame, 4-perf (perside) 35mm film format. Sure you can site many examples of other, better, systems but they come, they go. Even my favorite 5/70 Todd-AO while a long lasting format...lies dormant whilst old-reliable 4/35 chugs along.

This industry couldn't even adopt something as trivial as 6000 foot shipping reels (something I was dead against owing to the many screening rooms I deal with).

So, looking at the industry as your guide, cyan track is already dead. Of the 50+% of red reader theatres out there, the bulk of them were the result of NEW installations from manufacturers that offer the red reader as standard. They didn't come from exhibitors that just wanted to feel warm and squishy about their part in the envirostruggle.

With building in a lull, the infection of the red reader has also gone down. Your only hope is for another building boom AND closure of existing theatres.

Short of that, get the EPA on your side...if it became law, the decision on the conversion would be an easy one.

As to the openess of of cyan tracks...the information is actually laced with the "more-stable improved" baloney. There is plenty of mis-information in there. While I do believe John's statements on this matter are genuine, I don't believe that is the case with everyone. I do think it is wonderful that we all have the ability to express our different points of view. I must admit, I'd rather see another enjoyable ballgame with John than bicker over cyan track!

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-29-2002, 11:27 AM:

I'd rather watch a good ballgame too!

I'll support your idea to encourage theatres to install reverse scan readers with Infrared LEDs. But buy Red LED modules as well, and be ready to install them in the readers next year. That way, the theatres win regardless of what happens.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-29-2002, 01:46 PM:

Has anyone attemped to design a reverse-scan reader that supports two LEDs (e.g. one IR and one red), such that the reader can be optimized for cyan or redeveloped silver at the flip of a switch? I'd imagine there might be issues with focus and illumination in such an arrangement...

--jhawk

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-29-2002, 05:34 PM:

John said >Frank: Knowing that you do care about quality,< Thank you John >are YOU satisfied with the quality of analog sound you are getting from your Kelmar Red LED readers? Are your audiences satisfied? Are the Kelmar readers an improvement over what you had before? Have any prints with older soundtracks presented a problem? <

Actually the Kelmar installation made what I would consider a significant improvement in overall audio response and much better channel separation. I am very happy with the change, and no problem with older prints.....so far. But I am still worried about those purple variable density soundtrack prints. They are not nearly as uncommon as you might think. We ran three in one year, THE ROBE, CARMEN JONES and one other, I can't recall at the moment. We ran those BEFORE I installed the Kelmar, i.e., with standard, incandescent exciters; I am not sure what they would have sounded like with the red reader, if they played at all.

This discussion is VERY enlightening, guys. I am now very tempted to see if I can get IR units; I really would rather have the solution to a potential problem (not being able to play one of these purple VD tracks) in hand, rather than run around in panic mode the day before an opening when a print like this comes in. I had heard somewhere, probably in a post here a long while ago, that someone had gotten a purple VD track and it wouldn't play at all on with his red reader. It was said in passing, and not discussed further, but knowing that I've come across those prints fairly often, the one line of that post stuck in my mind. I even emailed Ioan Allen of Dolby labs about cyan tracks and then threw in the question about variable density tracks. He answered the question about the cyan tracks, but never answered the question about whether or not they had ever come a cross any problems playing back VD tracks with red readers.

So to sum up -- IR reverse scan, best for all tracks old and current, until or if cyan tracks come on the scene, then RED reverse scan to play them. That about right?

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 06-29-2002, 10:03 PM:

So...

The problems with red/LEDs & cyan soundtracks are twofold.

1. Red LEDs result in more film noise. To quote Goldberg from his treatise on the subject, "It is believed that this is due to the fact that when the track is illuminated by broad spectrum white light, the incoherent noise sources from each of the film's color layers add on a random basis and thus the noise 'averages out'. If a narrow spectral band illumination system is employed, this averaging cannot take place and thus the signal to noise ratio is impaired. This is true whether a standard silver track, high-magenta applicated track, or cyan track is being presented". Goldberg does not state the effects of using an infrared light source, but given that the dye layers of film are vitually transparent to infrared (and hence the need for silver) it would not be unreasonable to predict that infrared may result in lower noise than either white or red light. John, do you know of any tests in this regard? If not, I may ask my techical staff to do some tests of our own.

2. Red LED's (at least when run at high current levels) suffer from reducing light output over time. This is reportedly a rapid initial rate of loss, followed by a plateau of reduced rate of loss, followed by a rapid rate of loss towards the end of it's useful life. Infrared LEDs do not seem to suffer from this loss to anywhere near the same degree. It also appears that running a red LED at a much lower current significantly reduces this rate of loss.

Now recent developments in LED manufacturing have resulted in the appearance of very bright white LED's. One can envisage that it may now (or very soon) be possible to produce a super-bright white TO46 bar-LED of the type used in reverse scan readers. Would it be a sensible proposition to investigate the use of a super-bright white light source with black dye only tracks, before introducing cyan? At first glance, this would appear to solve all backwards compatibility issues and result in lower film noise than with cyan. Silver would not be required because a white LED would (I expect) produce very little infrared energy.

John, do you know of any work that has been done in this area? Can you foresee any drawbacks to this approach?

BTW John, my remarks on this topic are in no way directed at you. It is not my intention to shoot the messenger. If you feel my comments regarding vested interests are unfair, then I withdraw them. I do not want to be unfair to anyone.

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Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-30-2002, 09:11 AM:

In the sixties Technicolor experimented with a cyan blue diazo sound track so they could use totaly blank reciever stock on the IB printer rather than photographically silver exposing and processing off the image are silver
I understand it could be read by regular excitors and the only problem they encountered was the speed they could process it at was to slow. And it turnbed out that totaly blank stock would have cost more than regular B/W film
There was an interesting article on it a year ago in the BKST journal

I have often wondered what could be done in doing a undeveloped dye track in that spectral range

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 06-30-2002, 08:03 PM:

Gordy, pardon my ignorance but what exactly is "diazo"?

I should add in passing that despite any of the views that I have expressed in this thread, my company accepts the inevitability of the introduction of cyan prints. In fact we have recently completed the design and development of upgraded electronics for a new range of reverse scan readers for another Australian company, ICS. These readers utilise improvements in lens design, cell design and a departure from the standard Dolby preamp circuit used by everybody else. The result is that LEDs can be run at substantially reduced current for longer more stable operation without any increase in noise attributable to the reader itself. Also the higher resolution lens, a narrower slit and improved electronics have allowed frequency response to be extended so the reader is flat to 16kHz, not 3dB down.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-30-2002, 08:21 PM:

Diazo is a ferro cyanide blue photosensitive system used commonly for blue printing

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-30-2002, 11:57 PM:

Well, I can only speak (or type as it were) as a regular theater chain equipment maintaince guy. I don't know much about exactly how the soundtrack is developed/applied or about the enviomental impact of the silver application. I don't want to pollute and I'd like to think I have an open mind about all this.

We have both red LED and IR readers. We are presently changing to the red LED's, but not because of our concern for the environment; It's because we're worried the studios will suddenly drop cyan tracks on us just like polyster film, and we won't be able to play them.

It costs about $250 for a conversion kit (we use mostly Component Eng.) and it takes about an hour to install it and modify the power supply. (It takes a little longer because we have to remount the power supply in a way to allow easy accesss to the voltage adjustment- something we did not need to worry about with IR's.) So, installation alone costs $300 per screen, to replace something -working- we already have. And that's not even consitering whether or not red LED's are equal in sound quality.

The red LED's require a lot more tweeking than the IR's. It doesn't take long to tweek up the red LED's, about 15mins. We now have about 120 screens with them; And so now (in addition to everything else) I have a 15 x 120 (repeated every 6 months) maintaince task to do.

It's a moot point at our chain, since we have been buying new equipment, which came with red LED's and we are mostly converted. But, I do have to side with Steve on this. It's costing us (and will continue to cost us) a significant amount, with no gain for the theaters. If the environment is the major cause, I think the same amount of money could be better spent elsewhere.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-01-2002, 06:11 AM:

Ray Derrick said:

"Now recent developments in LED manufacturing have resulted in the appearance of very bright white LED's. One can envisage that it may now (or very soon) be possible to produce a super-bright white TO46 bar-LED of the type used in reverse scan readers. Would it be a sensible proposition to investigate the use of a super-bright white light source with black dye only tracks, before introducing cyan? At first glance, this would appear to solve all backwards compatibility issues and result in lower film noise than with cyan. Silver would not be required because a white LED would (I expect) produce very little infrared energy."

Optical soundtracks have always been printed in the cyan and/or magenta records of color print film, to avoid using the less sharp and more grainy yellow layer. (Print films require a very fast blue-sensitive (yellow dye forming) layer because they are printed from negatives having an orange mask, and on printers with low color temperature tungsten light sources). So a broad spectrum white (tungsten lamp or "white" LED) light source would NOT be ideal, since they would either "see" the noisy yellow layer, or the "gap" in spectral dye density if the yellow layer was not printed.

A dye track could be printed in either the cyan or magenta layer, or both. Because of the very large installed base of red LED readers (the majority of theatres already have them), and the greater efficiency of red LEDs over green LEDs, the technology has been optimized around red LEDs.

Here is the spectral dye density curve for KODAK VISION Color Print Film 2383 (other manufacturer's print films have similar curves):
http://www.kodak.com/global/images/en/motion/products/lab/Ti2397d.gif

As you can see, the spectral output of Red LED's nearly coincides with the peak of the cyan dye density, making them the ideal light source. You note that your company is working on further improvements to reverse scan readers using Red LEDs. Improvements like these are likely to overcome the -2dB S/N loss of today's technology.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-01-2002, 08:18 AM:

The bogus claim about overcoming the 2dB loss is just that...bogus information. Whereas the optical track does not have what one would consider great S/N nor dynamic range, any improvements in technology could also be applied to the conventional track and improve it.

The same silly arguement was applied to the cyan track with SR that somehow SR would cover up the 2dB drop in S/N...when compared to a convetional print the cyan print is still at BEST 2dB inferior...and that is presuming everything is perfect.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-01-2002, 11:18 AM:

Steve, please don't hide your true feelings about cyan dye tracks.

Looking at the big picture, many think dye tracks are the greater good. As far as the viability of red LED readers, over half of the theatres in the world have survived the conversion, and probably have better and more consistent analog sound than before (mostly because of the reverse scan LED technology).

As reader and noise reduction technology improve, you can use them to improve the quality of analog sound, which is becoming more and more of a "backup" as digital sound becomes predominant. Or you can use the improvements to eliminate a significant source of print waste, quality problems, and environmental impact, while still maintaining analog track quality that is better than tungsten light readers typically delivered.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-01-2002, 12:48 PM:

John,

When Have I EVER hid my feelings?

While many have converted to red readers, it wasn't because of a belief in their superiority or desire to protect the environment. It was more to do with scare tactics and being told about cyan's immenent adoption. Do you care to look at the USL ads of the previous, say 3 years...if you believed them, we would have had cyan track years ago. The facts are, the red readers are in place because they were purchased with new machines. The converted soundheads are a small percentage of installed base of red readers.

I don't think you will find many exhibitors that enjoy paying a technician to change an LED over their own employees changing a light bulb (either analog BXMs or digital EPTs). When one looks at the cost to the exhibitor, the Red light reader is more expensive to buy and to keep. At least the IR LED lasted long and was stable.

In my opinion, the installed base of red readers had very little to do with consumer choice, it just is what is being done on new installations. If the cyan scare wasn't there, I doubt the red LED would have gone anywhere...it offers nothing but wasted money to those that buy them.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 07-02-2002, 07:13 AM:

Thanks for the excellent explanation John. The problem is we can improve the readers themselves but there is not much we can do about film noise.

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-02-2002, 08:45 AM:

Ray Derrick said: "...there is not much we can do about film noise."

The cyan and magenta layers of KODAK VISION Color Print films are very fine grained and very sharp. Here is the granularity curve:
http://www.kodak.com/global/images/en/motion/products/lab/f010_0056ac.gif

Here is the Modulation Transfer Function (MTF) curve:
http://www.kodak.com/global/images/en/motion/products/lab/f010_0053ac.gif

Either/both of the cyan or magenta layers work well for dye tracks. But cyan was chosen because of the installed base of red LED readers, and the greater luminous efficiency of today's Red LEDs.

Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 07-02-2002, 11:09 AM:

I would like to hear an A/B comparison between cyan tracks and say, high-magenta as read by a reverse scan red LED so I can see how different/worse or whatever it is.

However, speaking as an operator at a six-screen theatre with DTS and Dolby Digital all around, I would have to say that we would enjoy greater benefits overall from eliminating the soundtrack redevelopment stage. Our print of 'Scooby Doo' has a splotch during the opening Warner Brothers tag that we'd rather not see. (I can also see the argument that errors such as this do not have to occur, although invariably they seem to).

It is exceedingly rare that we present any piece of film - film ads, trailers or features - in analog; the exception being some film ads which do not have a digital soundtrack.

However, should the digital format(s) fail for any reason, it then becomes very important that the analog soundtrack is of high quality. This is where I cannot speak from experience, not having heard the difference between cyan and high-magenta. If cyan sounds really that much worse than what we already have, then maybe it's better to look for something better or stick with what we have. Until the results can be heard, it's hard to say.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-02-2002, 11:30 AM:

Two features ("Get Over It" and "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back") had a limited number of cyan dye analog soundtrack prints made and sent to theatres that played them with red LED readers:
http://www.dolby.com/press/wb.pr.0105.Cyan.html
http://www.dyetracks.org/press/pr.010902.StudioSupport.html

In the UK, an informational film for exhibitors "Red Alert: The Movie" was available:
http://www.davidbyrne.plus.com/Films/RedAlert.html

Watch your film shipments for more information from distributors --- it's coming soon.

Posted by Brad Haven (Member # 954) on 07-04-2002, 03:22 AM:

A big thanks to all for the discussion on cyan and the readers, it's great to be able to read both points of view on the issue!.