Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Shutter timing on Victoria 8

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Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 06-18-2002, 10:55 PM:

I have been unable to find instructions on how to adjust the shutter timing on a Cinemaccanica Victoria 8, any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-19-2002, 05:06 AM:

If it's anything like the Vic 5, the job is simplicity itself. I haven't done one for - I'd guess - getting on for two years now, so do not take the following as gospel, but as a rough guide

Remove the funnel from the front of the lamphouse in order to gain access to the back of the projector head. For about a year I was removing the whole lamphouse until Darren very kindly pointed out that there was no need to do this!
Remove allen bolts from the back of the shutter cover
Loosen allen bolts securing shutter assembly to its shaft
Inch the motor until the intermittent sprocket is just starting to turn, then position the shutter blade so that the leading edge is just obscuring the entire gate aperture.
When you're reasonably certain that the shutter is in the right position, tighten the securing bolts and reassemble the projector.
Make a loop consisting of a piece of head leader, or black spacing with clear frame lines. Lace it up, fire up the lamp and focus the picture.
Using the projector's racking handle, inch the frame line up and down the screen. The contrast between black and white will show any ghosting very clearly.
If there is any ghosting, you'll need to repeat the procedure in order to adjust the shutter and hopefully get rid of it. Let the lamp cool down thoroughly before removing the funnel again, and be careful of hot surfaces.

Personally I found Vic 5s to be the easiest machines for shutter timing I've ever come across. Three-blade shutters are a little bit more tricky than two-blade ones, as there is a little bit less leeway in the size of each blade. But unless you're running silents you won't need to worry about that.

As I say, I've never timed an 8, but I'd be a bit surprised if the procedure were radically different.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-19-2002, 06:22 AM:

Leo,

Try a Simplex or older Century....wanna time the shutter? Just turn the knob while the machine is running until the ghosting is gone...now that is simplicity!

Most people go for centering the shutter over the aperture whilst the intermittent is half-way through pull down (2.5 teeth on a 16 tooth intermittent) for 35mm.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-19-2002, 07:32 AM:

Steve said: "Just turn the knob while the machine is running until the ghosting is gone...now that is simplicity!"

I really miss that feature on the new Century machines.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-19-2002, 12:02 PM:

"I really miss that feature on the new Century machines."

Me too! The Westrex variant had this too.

I thought you could have this fitted when you order a new one from Strong? (At extra cost of course)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-19-2002, 02:29 PM:

Steve: the idea of a 'timing handle' like a racking handle is a very appealing one, especially if you're constantly swapping two-blade and three-blade shutters. I've never used a projector which had one, and I get the impression that there aren't very many Century/Strong machines in the UK.

Try timing the drum shutter on a GK-37 and a Vic 5 really is simplicity itself!

As for the technique, I've always found it difficult to judge the mid point of an intermittent's pulldown, ergo I always used the start or end of the movement as a reference point. I don't think it really matters which you use, as long as it enables you to judge the relationship between the movement of the shutter and the intermittent sprocket.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-19-2002, 04:55 PM:

Leo, there are quite a number of Century/Westrex machines in the UK and some of the other Strong products too. Caledonian Cinemas, Showcase Cinemas and Apollo use Century on the whole, UCI have some Century, many many independant cinemas are equipped with venerable Westar 2001 or Century projectors. Most of the recently built/refitted RFT's are using Century. Warner Bros use Century in some of the London theatres (West end, but I'm not sure exactly where) and are using Balantyne in the iWerks theatre at Cheshire Oaks, there's some London preview theatres running Simplex/Century too. (There was an article about Fox in CT recently). The two Spean Bridge cinemas currently open in the UK are equipped with Simplex Millenium projectors too. The drive in movie trailer that is based around Manchester someplace carries Century. Other notables are the former Odeon, Peterborough, which has a pair of 35/70 Century JJ's, as does the Belmont, Aberdeen. To say that there's not a lot of them in the UK is not true! It's just that they are not generally used in the film factory multiplexes here.

Try timing (in as much as you 'time' this beast!) the shutter in a Christie Epic! Then you know you've comne of age, so to speak.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-19-2002, 08:15 PM:

The vic 8 is simplest retimmed to the mid point of the pull down to the mid point of the blade
The shape of the Vic5 shutter precludes using tht method
Doesn't century still have the timing knob but it is now inside the back of the mech

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-20-2002, 02:08 AM:

Gordon, sadly not, Strong have removed the phasing mechanism altogether, but AFAIK you can have it fitted to special order, at extra cost. For a while it was inside the gear casing.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-21-2002, 09:42 AM:

Gordon said: "Doesn't century still have the timing knob but it is now inside the back of the mech"

We have a pair of Century projectors that had the timing knob inside the back of the mechanism, rather than using the flexible cable to have the knob in front. Always felt uneasy putting my fingers next to the moving gear train to "fine tune" the timing while training my eyes on the screen. One slip, and you have gear teeth imprinted on your fingers, or worse.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 06-23-2002, 08:43 AM:

Timing the shutter on a vic 8 takes more time than on a vic 5 as you have to take all the shutter housing off, which also has the change-over unit, manual and electronic coil assy attachted to it. so basicly eevrything from the rear of the gat comes off in one big chunk.
To do this it is best to slide the lamphouse back if you have the faccilty of take the lamphouse off. This is the only way you can get enough space to remove the casing without damaging the shutter which is in mid air, as it is like a cone shape.
The shutter then is held in position to the shutter drive by two allen bolts, you will notice the shutter mounting is on a sprung plate, so as you turn the machine over the shutter will rock back and forth, not sure why tit is sprung though. once the machine starts the shutter resides it's self in the central position of this sprung plate.
To time it do as Leo sugested, turn the motor over untill the Int sprocket is just about to engage, and make the shutter cover the whole frame(make the bottom edge of the shutter be a straight line across the scope/70mm aperture.) tighten the shutter and turn the machine over to see if the shutter is still covering the picture untill the int stops moving, then the shutter should start opening. To get it right is takes a few go's.
Also there are Two shutters available for the VIC 8, a standard one and a reduced one. I had to put the standard one in to run 70 with no shutter blur.
Once done, unlike a Vic 5, you shouldnt have to re-time the shutter as ther are no belts in the drive chain which can stretch and alter the distance between the INT unit and the shutter drive unit, which then makes the timing go out.
Hope this helps, does anyone else have a better way of doing it?

Darren

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 06-24-2002, 02:28 AM:

Any tips for getting the rear housing off? Unfortunatly I have the type with the Fire shutter type of douser (which is non functional by the way).

Also is it normal for the V-8 to make a little bit of clattering on start up? Once it gets up to speed it appears to run OK.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 06-29-2002, 10:32 AM:

Hi Jason,

just a thought.... how old is your Vic 8? Older mechs have a different shutter with smaller blades on the disk. This makes it very very difficult to totally remove travel ghost. Sound Associates, or your local dealer, can supply a newer 'reduced' shutter with slightly larger blades that gets over this problem. I have replaced four of them when I did a full equipment change in my four screens, all now Vic 8. I also supplied Darren in York with one recently and he is very happy with the results.

As for adjusting the timing of an existing shutter, it can be done without pulling the lamphouse back and removing the shutter housing.
Remove the saftey glass from the shutter housing and lock the fire shutter open. You can then see what you are doing as you work thru the lamp house opening. Slacken the three screws that lock the shutter in place taking care not to losen them too much. Then retard the shutter if the ghost is at the bottom of the picture or advance the shutter if the ghost is at the top. (BRAT.... Bottom-Retard-Advance-Top) Providing you take care and don't rush this method works well.

One other thing to watch out for is this... is the ghosting staedy and constant in one direction. The shutter is mounted on a two part circular coupling plate that has four springs connecting the two parts. The spings are some sort of shock absorber allowing the two parts to rotate within each other and find a middle position. If these spings are weak they need to be changed as this can cause irregular ghosing. Also if the assembly has got dirty the self centering function may not be working correctly and the shutter will not rotate within the mounting and find its middle position. They can be changed on the projector but it is a very fiddly job. There is also a similar coupling within the casing. The drive shaft from the motor also has the same type of coupling. You can tell if these springs are weak, or even broken by grasping the motor handle and turning it back and forth rapidily a few times. You should 'feel' a constant springy feeling if the springs are in good condition. If not you will feel and hear a definate clunking sound as the play on the coupling hits its full travel. All of these couplings are intended to reduce shudder and give smooth running.

Hope this helps. Any problems contact me directly.

Regards Ken.