I know many here have stated that they aren't satisfied with the current Technicolor reels so I'd suggest that either you or your manager fill out and mail in the survey to let them know what type of reels you do prefer.

"They're all so beautiful...why don't I have three heads? ahahahahaha "--Amadeus
 

Seriously, though, I'd _love_ to see films shipped on those great black plastic solid reels made by "Hollywood Film Company." Since that's probably not going to happen, I'll vote for ETS-style reels as a second choice.
 

I dislike C because it can be extremely difficult to seperate the reels without breaking them, and I suspect that's part of why they come broken.

"Hrmph. I wonder why I didn't get a newsletter in the mail." Perhaps
tomorrow.

--jhawk
 

I've had far too many of the A and B type of reels fall apart while winding the film off. Just check out the "Advanced Booth Training" video for an example.

I've noticed some indie films have used these black reels with metal hubs. These things are like tanks! They never fall apart, you could cut the edges jagged and use them as giant throwing stars!
 

brad_carroll@technicolor.com
Telephone: 818-562-8372

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
 

By the way, does anyone really think this survey will make any difference? I seem to remember from the TES review that calling in complaints had no effect. Just a thought.
 

I think the fact that Technicolor took between a quarter and a fifth of the survey postcard on the reels leads me to believe that they are seriously looking into our concerns about the reels. Otherwise why would they even bother to waste the space on it when they could ask other questions?

 

I really hope TES is serious. Anyone can turn over a new leaf (at least partially in this case). Hell, ANY improvement is welcome!
 

The type A reels often come without an inner shaft notch and I've encountered many of these that have been hand chiseled to fit the shaft. I've also noticed that Type A reels seem to have more of a tendency to snap apart during transport and often become separated in the film cans.

The type D reels that arrive with New Line prints are my least favorite. For one thing, they have a sharp edge that surely isn't pleasant to handle on a regular basis. These reels have given us problems during breakdown on Christie muts, being that they don't really fit the pin hole position correctly.
 

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I actually saw some merit in your reels except for the early ones which had the periphery of the flanges pinching inward leaving substantially less than a 35mm clearance. As a reel to reel operator (I own & operate a private screening room in Chicago) I try as much as possible to take up directly on the shipping reels which not only saves time but also leaves the film tails out (the way **I** prefer to receive them, ready for inspection) and with the preferred emulsion-in wind. Thus your original batch wasn't safe for such use. But the later ones are fine by me. I like the Delrin-like plastic. It seems to stay cleaner.

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You need to do two simple things to improve the product. Go to a theater with Christie platters and mount your reel on their makeup table (not the rewind bench, but the actual rollaround MUT that hooks up to the platter to load and unload film). Then you will see why the general booth population hates those reels. They do not fit. There must be at least one hole in the reel that lines up with the drive hole in the film core, otherwise they are useless. Remember, the vast majority of all theaters run off of platters and almost all of them require that drive pin hole. There's generally lots of cursing to be heard in most booths when it comes time to break down a New Line print that has those reels because of this. This is the main reason why everyone on this thread has pretty much said the same thing "definitely not D".

Also, the edges on the ones I've seen are awful sharp. After seeing some reels that have been "previously enjoyed", the edges are knicked and sharp enough to cut film and flesh. They need to be rounded please.

Fix those two items and I think people won't have any problem other than we need to know the *proper* way to put them together and take them apart. If you will send me documentation, I will post it on the site so your reels do not get broken by projectionists who do not know how to properly take them apart and put them back together.

If you do a re-design, send me a prototype and are there is any problems with the design, trust me, I WILL find them and let you know before you go into mass production.

Think we should send a printout of this forum to TES?

As for the need to separate the flanges...What happens is that the reel is taken apart, then the core is popped out and the film itself is tossed...presumably the polyester base is recycled?

The concept is basically sound, but the implementation (especially with TES reels) often leaves much to be desired.

Helmut--it's good to see someone involved with the design of these reels here. Hopefully you will be able to use the comments made here to improve upon your existing design and create reels which satisfy the needs of the depots, the accountants, and the theatres.
 

The clasps were easy enough to see which had the most holding surface area and, again, given the strength of the material used, which would sustain impact abuse.

Not ever having worked a Christie MUT, I didn't mention Brad's major point -- obviously these things need to work on all existing equipment out there without needing to drill freakin holes in them. Then I added what might seem simplistic, but the idea that if the clasp does break, there should be some down and dirty way to join everything together easily by even the least unhandy of our compadres -- hence the holes that one could either thread string or cable ties through as a quick fix to at least get the film back into the can.

Here's what I sent them:

======================================================
18 May 2002

RE: REEL SURVEY

Dear Brad Carroll:

Received the four break-apart reels for evaluation.

As much as I pondered over these reels, I came back to the same problem. The difficulty is in knowing the tinsel strength of the materials. I just received a print of MGM’s SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS and one of the flanges of one reel was shattered, a condition that we see too often. As best I can determine, this was a case of the plastic not being able to withstand whatever forces were applied to the can. Plastic seems to be more brittle than some of these other compounds. So the way to prevent this kind of shattering would be to know which material has the best tinsel strength. A chemical engineer would give that information easily and more accurately than my guessing. But I will anyway:

My instincts say the Poly Propylene (A) seems to resist breakage the best because it’s obviously more pliable, less brittle that the other samples. I don’t think I have ever seen these flanges arrive broken. On the other hand, they tend to warp more easily, although warpage in a reel with such pliability is not a major issue as you don’t run the film on these reels, they are merely a means of transporting film.

The second choice would be the High Impact Styrene (B) as it seems to have some of the pliability of the Poly, but a bit more sturdiness. The big question (again for the chemical engineer) is, which of the two is most shatter- proof -- which breaks faster in those compression and impact tests. The choice between these two flange types would be made once you get an answer to that question.

The ABS plastic (C) and the TransFilm blend (D) seem to be as stiff as the common reels that are in use now and that so often arrive broken. But again, if all these flanges were given the same stress testing, THAT would be the way I would choose the one to use. I could be totally wrong about the Poly and Styrene – the ABS or Trans might just stand up better to abuse.

The fasteners are the real issue, it is this that we have the most frustration with. If the fastener breaks, then all is lost.

I would rate the Clip Fastener (D) the best of all four fastening systems. This is because the design allows a sturdier arm that clasps the other flange rather than the hub. But I must say, the others all run a close second – again, everything depends on the physical endurance of the flange. A strong, impact resistant flange will provide a fastener that is more difficult to break. All four seem to hold securely, although the Long Arm (A) and Short Arm (B) both rely on not only the arm to grab the hubs, but on an additional protrusion to hold the arms in place. This provides one more piece that can fail if the reel is damaged. The Prong (C) comes in last because putting the grabbing mechanism at the very center of the reel is where all the forces of a reel being dropped are directed. In the other designs, especially (D), the flanges have a center support that extends into the hub that is separate from the locking mechanism. If this reel is dropped, the forces are directed at the center post holding the hub. Even if that breaks, the fastening mechanism will still function.

Lastly, I would add that whatever the design, it should include a way that if the fastener fails, the film handler would have a way that the flanges could still be easily joined to the hub. The (D) design allows this. Even if one or both of the arms fail, a wire tie or even a length of string could be passed through the flange, through the hub, through the other flange and back again, thus securing the unit well enough to wind or unwind film. It only requires that holes in the hub align with holes in both flanges so that all can be easily tied together by the film handler.

Well, I hope this is helpful. It certainly would go a long way to relieving some of the frustration that is aimed at Technicolor if changing over to a better design stops or reduces those nightmare experiences where a film has to get mounted and the projectionist opens the can only to find one or more broken reels and film spilled all over the can.

Keep me informed on the company’s final decision.

Warm regards,

Frank Angel

Maybe our new friend Helmut can give us a rough idea on the costs.
 

C would be my second choice. I'd rather receive the prints held together with bands of duct tape than use A or B ever again.

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ANSI/SMPTE 192 lists the pertanent dimensions so the reel can actually hold film and line up with other apparatus. In the annex A.2 discusses the need to have holes to allow the use with platter make up tables. It does not specify just where the hole should be and the size of the hole.

Personally, I feel that the drive dog hole for MUT should be standardized such that you don't have to move the dog pin around depending on the reel.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

When you have to force a reel into an old can, it seems obvious that if the can is later thrown or dropped, the energy at the point of impact is going to be transfered directly to the reel on the other side of that metal which was already compacted in the can. Perhaps the plastic shipping containers are better than metal. Or perhaps the can design needs a completely new approach. Maybe a different shape or significant amount of padding added as an intergral part of the container.

We run lots of foreign prints, and I must say, their concept of shipping film sans reels but on cores instead and in plastic "cans" that are then shipped in regular cardboard boxes may be a solution. I've hardly ever seen film shipped this spill all over as it does with our conventional way with cans and the broken reels. And for platter makeup and breakdown, it really isn't all that more difficult using a split reel to mount from the core roll and then back again. Dealing with a film roll on a core and a split reel is a lot easier than dealing with a broken reel with half the film slippend off the roll.

Although the clasp in "D" is secure, it seemed that you had to bend it out a significant distance for it to unlatch. "A" seems like one of the better choices to ensure that reels comes with the pin holes lined up. "B" still has the chance of not having any holes lined up for breakdown. I have seem a few times with "C" that the reel has snapped off at the center leaving just the fastener. Also, fasteners "C" and "D" require that you flip the reel for final separation.

As far as the plastic is concerned, I would vote for either "C" or "D". "A" and "B" are very soft and if they get warped from storage, then more care needs to used during buildup / teardown because you are having to compensate for warpped plastic possibly scraping against film.

"A" Fastener, "C" or "D" plastic

Paul Konen
Cinemark Legacy 24

 

Even in a reel-to-reel booth, it can be annoying to deal with film shipped on cores, as one must have two good split reels (most places are lucky to have one) to take up on, unless one wants to rewind everything again after the last show.

Why do Christie platter MUTs use "dog drive" anyway? Obviously it's needed for 1/2" shaft reels, but why didn't they use the standard "key"-type drive for the 5/16" reel shaft? (obviously, the shaft would need to be re-designed, as the single screw that holds it in wouldn't work if that shaft were keyed).
 

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Anytime I get the C or D reels with 3 hole cores in them, I swap them for the two hole cores I have on hand so that I am prepared for the more common A and B type reels with two hole cores leaving no hole for the drive pin on my MUT!

This morning I had to build 8 Legged Freaks and it was on A reels with cores that don't have holes at all, they have 4 wide tapered square openings.......the point is these reels are designed to locked together in a circular hole. This combo I received today fell apart when I picked up the reel.

Some of us projectionists should go get jobs wrapping reels, that's the only solution I see to the problem.
 

Just about any well designed make up table will have a drive dog for breaking down film. The key is not designed to take too much torque. From shipping reels this is even more true since their keyways are often just sheet metal or other thin material that can really cut into the key itself.

I believe on the Christie MUT, there are two tapped holes near spindle that will like up with the typical dog pin on a split reel...put the split reel on the MUT...screw the split reel to the dog plate and away you go. One of these days, I'm gonna try it myself!

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

If it would help, I can take some pictures for you next week of how the reels fit on a Christie MUT. Please ship me one of yours so I will be able to use that in the pictures as well so you can see why they don't fit.

Copies of standards may be ordered from the SMPTE:

http://smpte.org/smpte_store/standards/

BTW, the standard for the cores used by the labs is SMPTE 37M-1999. If you are using the cores as the reel hub, you need a copy of this standard as well.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Most of the problem of broken reels stems from TES shipping them out in cans that are less than full. If they would fill up any empty spaces with empty reels (or better yet, put the proper number of reels in a can...THERE'S a thought!) the problem would go away. It's the reels flopping back and forth during shipment that causes the damage.

The empty-space problem is made worse by the DTS carrier. The carriers should be thinner, that way they could fit into a can filled with reels without jamming. Those carriers could be 1/4" thick and still protect the disks adequately.

We rarely have broken reels in our ETS shipments, because their cans are almost always full, with the DTS carrier crammed in (or the disks in plastic cases slipped between two reels.)
 

Helmut E. Dorausch
Transfilm Inc.
Manager of National Operations
(818) 771-5390
(818) 771-5395

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quote:

---

Lastly, The suggestions of consulting SMPTE 192-1997 was rather ammusing. Sure looks to me like a "KEY WAY" is called for on 2000ft reels.
They even give dims. Why is there even a need for "drive-pins????
Anyone care to enlighten me???

---

Helmut, The Key-way works fine on the projector, but I think a key shaft on a makeup table would wear out, due to the high torque of the motors in most tables.
 

Helmut E. Dorausch
Transfilm Inc.
Manager of National Operations
(818) 771-5390
(818) 771-5395

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Lewis Bohannon
"The Man Up-Stairs"