Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital sound trailers

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-20-2002, 02:48 PM:

Although the words "The feature you are about to see is presented in [insert sound fromat here] sound," never actually appear on sound logo trailers, is that not exactly the purpose of such trailers? I brought this up to some other projectionists when I noticed that the Dolby Train is playing on My Beek Fat Greek Wedding, an SR only print. They say that it's advertising that the theater is equiped with Dolby Digital but says nothing about the specific feature. 99.9 percent of the customers are going to assume that either they are listening to Dolby Digital, or they are supposed to be listening to Dolby Digital but it's not working. Is this not false advertising?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-20-2002, 02:54 PM:

"Yes."

It's false, misleading, and Film Done Wrong.
Unfortunately, if this is not already obvious to them, it's probably non-trivial to convince them.

--jhawk

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-20-2002, 03:05 PM:

I remember when DTS first came out, some of the first few universal titles came with the DTS logo attached to the print. I went to one of our local competitors to see a movies and it still had the logo attached to it. The film was playing in a mono auditorium.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-20-2002, 03:08 PM:

Ken,

Are you surprised that this hype-driven industry isn't exactly wringing its collective hands or loosing sleep because of guilt over a bit of ambiguous over-statement or even outright deception, are you?

Truth-in-advertising should require theatres to post, along with the rating, what format the film is presented in IN THAT THEATRE, not what it was filmed in. A customer paying $10 to see a current feature should know that they will be watching a scope picture cropped to 2:1 BEFORE they plunk down their hard-earned bucks. Likewise it should be clearly stated that they will be hearing SR and not digital. They should know that the theatre is running only MONO sound, not stereo. They should be informed BEFORE they go into the theatre that the screen will be no bigger than their home projecton tv set and set ten feet above head height so they will need a neckbrace immediately after the show. That would be truth in advertising because theatres presenting the "lesser" values surely are not charging cheaper ticket prices. Will theatres ever voluntarily give consumers this kind of honest, up front information? Can you hear me down there in Florida, laughing out loud at the question?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-20-2002, 03:11 PM:

Universal Pictures had the policy of just attaching the original DTS trailer to the print itself. The first DTS trailer simply featured the flying disc and when it exploded the trailer was over. In 1994, about the time when "Speed" was released, DTS came up with a longer trailer featuring the DTS logo and the "This Theater Features" title.

One thing I did like about the original trailer was how the wind sounded when the disc exploded. It was the perfect transitional intro into the start of "Jurassic Park." I really wish Universal Home Video had used this trailer when they released the "Jurassic Park" DVD. But, no, they had to inappropriately use the piano trailer instead. Geez.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-20-2002, 03:22 PM:

"Truth in advertising" just seems like an extra bit of labor most theater operators don't want to bother themselves with. Most theaters don't place digital format trailers on the print since the snipes have to be changed as the print moves from auditorium to auditorium. A complex featuring the same digital format on all screens has an easier time with it. But even then most AMC sites don't run SDDS trailers at all either.

I too, would like to know exactly what kind of sound format and projection format is being used on a film before I walk into the auditorium. But that just doesn't seem to be happening. If anything, movie ads are providing even less information than ever. Cost cutbacks are part of the problem. It costs extra money to make a theater directory ad or stack ad that includes all the technical info in readable sized type.

Another problem is a number of newer stadium seated theaters actually feature watered down arsenals of equipment. Most do not qualify for THX standards. Cheaper speakers, amps, cinema processors and projection equipment is installed. One would think every screen in a new multiplex would have digital sound. But they often don't. I can point to a few here in Oklahoma like that. So, to cover up the facts, they just don't notate the technical info for their shows. They let the audiences assume that since it is a newer theater it must automatically have all that stuff.

In the end, it comes down to the audiences to do a better job in shopping around for a better theater. If someone goes to a dump, complains about the show, but then keeps paying money to see movies in that same dump then he has absolutely no right to complain. Dollars do the talking.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-20-2002, 04:47 PM:

I always felt that there either should be no optical backup track on format logo snipes or a analogue track saying since you are hearing this this theatre is too cheap to provide(brand XXX ) digital sound or maintain it

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-20-2002, 05:21 PM:

I agree completely with Gordon on this.

Actually, it never occurred to me to run a sound trailer for any format other than the one in which the feature is being presented. Hmm....

One of the places where I fill in sometimes doesn't usually run sound format logos; this is because it is a 5-plex with all three digital systems: the big house has DTS, as does the two smallest houses. The two mid-size houses have SRD and SDDS, respectively. Thus, during the "life" of a print, the sound logo would need to be changed nearly every time it moved. Add to that the fact that prints often move for screenings, interlocks, etc., and it just becomes a big mess. The big house is THX certified and I do try to run the THX trailer when possible.

Another place where I fill in has SRD on three of six screens, but doesn't have any Dolby trailers. I've written to Dolby to ask them to send some out, but haven't heard back from them.

If I worked in a single or a multiplex where all houses were equipped with the same format, I'd definitely run the sound trailers.

Another issue with having multiple digital formats in one theatre is (as mentioned in another thread) the possibility that one track (usually SDDS) won't play right when the others are fine, and this isn't usually discovered until prints are moved. My most recent example is MIB2: the print ran fine in DTS for the first two weeks, then was moved to an SDDS house where there were major dropout problems on some reels. The solution was to run it in SR, since the film is not doing great business and it doesn't really make sense to replace reels on a print that probably won't play in an SDDS house for more than a week, anyway.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-21-2002, 01:46 AM:

I also agree with Gordon. Brad and I have discussed this a few times I think as well. I am more in favor(favour) of the analog(analogue) track having a voice saying that you are not listening to digital... go complain and demand a refund, please.

But as far as what Ken is talking about where the auditorium has Dolby Digital and the print does not, I don't think that the logo should be played at all. Why even put forth the effort to attach it to the print when it was assembled? Ken, you need to smack your projectionists around!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-21-2002, 06:59 AM:

The appropriate sound trailer to play with "Greek Wedding" (which is SR-only) would be Dolby "Temple," which is the SR trailer. This assumes that the theatre is equipped for SR, of course.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-21-2002, 04:43 PM:

I've never seen a theater anywhere play the SR "Temple" trailer (which simply features the plain Dolby logo).

The only place I've ever seen "Temple" was on some European web site that had a bunch of format trailer to download. They had .VOB files with DD 5.1 for all the Dolby and THX logos, but the "Temple" trailer was just a basic MPEG with a tiny picture.

Posted by Peter Dougherty (Member # 686) on 07-22-2002, 01:48 AM:

I have an even bigger complaint with exhibition here in New York City. Try finding out what's playing in any THX auditorium! None of the newspaper ads or MoviePhone recordings indicate what's in the THX houses.

We only have a few THX auditoria in the City, and all are one or two theatres within multiplexes. An average film-goer will never be able to find out the right showtime for the THX performance, and most times the box-office staff don't know their rumps from holes in the ground if they're actually lucky enough to get through to a "human being."

I've never understood this. Why would a theatre pay the humongous THX certification fees, have the alignments done, earn the right to advertise in a format that is a guaranteed cinemaphile magnet, yet fail to advertise it, fail to put THX trailers on screen or even push it at the box office.

And forget about finding out which digital format the film's presented in! Nobody knows, nobody cares...

------------------
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty

W2IRT

Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 07-22-2002, 03:12 AM:

another plug for Harkin's from me.

We had 11 screens: 3 SDDS, 3DD, 3DTS, 2SR. 1 of the SDDS and 1 DD were THX auditoriums. EVERY WEEK, we swapped out sound designation trailers with out fail. Yeah, it was a pain for the projectionists, but who here cares? Its all about the presentation, so suck it up. We also changed the sound designation if the show was being moved for a day to accomodate a "sneak screening" in the larger house. The box office reader boards had "digital sound" and "THX" snipes that went on the appropriate film (mylars, the only way to go. I hate those red LED signs!) All of the staff (even the ushers and concession people) had dailies available should a customer want to know exactly what digital format was being used. The box office staff also had a company memo that was updated every week, and could tell any customer the sound format for the whatever show of whatever movie on the 8th screen of the location 2 hours away, and whether it was THX certified or not.

The VP routinly said that the majority of our work was for the 5% of the customers that this stuff matters too. They're the ones who would take their dollars to another location if they weren't amazed. The rest of our customers just came because we were closest.
-adam

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 07-22-2002, 04:36 AM:

quote:
Bobby Henderson wrote:
I've never seen a theater anywhere play the SR "Temple" trailer (which simply features the plain Dolby logo).
The only place I've ever seen "Temple" was on some European web site that had a bunch of format trailer to download. They had .VOB files with DD 5.1 for all the Dolby and THX logos, but the "Temple" trailer was just a basic MPEG with a tiny picture.

We play 'Temple' (Single University screen, dolby A)
I have a flat and a scope copy.

I wish they made another one. It can get a bit tiring.

And I have seen it played in a multiplex - SRD film in an SRD house

(there is a copy here in the 'video' section if you want to take a look)

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-22-2002, 02:50 PM:

Peter said: >Why would a theatre pay the humongous THX certification fees, have the alignments done, earn the right to advertise in a format that is a guaranteed cinemaphile magnet, yet fail to advertise it, fail to put THX trailers on screen or even push it at the box office. <

Excellent question, Peter....why indeed. It goes to the very heart of what the exhibtion business has become all about: selling FOOD (or a close facsimile thereof), not motion picture presentation.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 07-22-2002, 04:30 PM:

quote:
Why would a theatre pay the humongous THX certification fees ...

Because they want to allow the general public to assume that the whole place is THX certified, not just one auditorium. They scream, "WE HAVE THX!" and mumble "in house 7".

Posted by Peter Dougherty (Member # 686) on 07-22-2002, 04:38 PM:

It got even more ridiculous last time (and *the* last time ever) I was at the UA-14 in Union Square, where cinemas 3 & 8 are THX certified. I spoke with one of the ass't managers (insert snide remark here) after the show, and asked if I could get a phone number to call to find out ahead of time which films are in #3 & #8, and the showtimes of same. I was told that the inside number is confidential, and that what's playing in certain audioria is PRIVATE INFORMATION and can't be given out ahead of time for security concerns. I'm not joking...they actually told me that!!

As far as I'm concerned whoever came up with that decree can perform a anatomically impossible act with a 10k xenon lamp. Sideways. With bristles on the end.

Ahhh...movie going in New York City. Not for the feint of heart, and not for the cinephile either, alas.

------------------
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty

W2IRT

Posted by Peter Dougherty (Member # 686) on 07-22-2002, 04:48 PM:

quote:
Because they want to allow the general public to assume that the whole place is THX certified, not just one auditorium. They scream, "WE HAVE THX!" and mumble "in house 7".

That's the silliest part--they DON'T advertise THX anywhere except a couple of one-sheet frames in the lobby. I mean NONE of them do. Look in the paper or online for what's playing at Lincoln Square, UA Union Square, Orpheum, etc, and they just list the showtimes and maybe the digital formats (a nice touch, but I'll bet ya a nickel that most of those are wrong). Not word-one about THX in any of these. It's as if they're ashamed of the fact they have it!

------------------
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty

W2IRT

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-22-2002, 05:21 PM:

I'm kind of frustrated at the situation regarding theaters originally built for THX, but then the circuit just lets the certification expire. The Carmike 8 here in Lawton was built with auditoriums 4 and 5 in THX design. But a couple years back, Carmike cut costs and dumped the certification for roughly half their THX screens. So now only #4 carries the THX certification, while #5 has all the same exact hardware.

And that leads to interesting confrontations with some customers. A new film with 2 prints might be on both #4 and #5 with staggered show times. You try to tell them the show is essentially the same and they don't believe you unless you do something short of dragging them up into the booth and letting them look at both projection/sound rack setups. The only difference is one print has a THX trailer on it.

I suppose there are worse problems, like the legions of customers who don't seem to notice a good quality presentation when they see one and just happily drive to a dump of a theater just because it is the closest one to their house.

Posted by Peter Dougherty (Member # 686) on 07-22-2002, 05:34 PM:

quote:
Carmike cut costs and dumped the certification for roughly half their THX screens. So now only #4 carries the THX certification, while #5 has all the same exact hardware.

I wonder if anyone has ever made up a list of former THX houses that have failed to renew certification. I recall many Cineplex-Odeon auditiora in Toronto that were once THX but dropped the certifications after a short while. They still offered great presentations, however. Fairview 1, Canada Square 2 & 3, Sherway 1,3,5 come to mind. Mind you, I think all of these are now gone entirely, but they ran for years.

Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 07-22-2002, 05:58 PM:

Having trouble getting digital sound trailers?

Do what AMC does -- don't use 'em anymore. It only means extra clutter in the preshow.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-22-2002, 11:11 PM:

It will be interesting to see if AMC renews the THX certification for the former GCC houses that they now run. Many of these now have one or more THX-certified auditoria. In the Boston area, Fenway and Chestnut Hill have one THX house each, Burlington has two, and Framingham has several. They still do some limited promotion of THX (e.g. lobby signs), but I wonder how much longer this will continue.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-22-2002, 11:33 PM:

Cinemark used to have a lot of THX screens (although why some were THX certified I wouldn't know). I think it was 1995 or 1996 when they let their whole collective certification program lapse. I guess they figured if they went on a stadium seating building binge they no longer needed THX.

AMC hasn't been a particularly good supporter of THX, although I think they still have that one THX screen in LA's Century City where many of the SDDS demo shows ran in 1993 and 1994.

Overall, I've been to some THX theaters where the sound system really wasn't all that impressive and been to others where the sound seemed to pressurize the room. Some of the General Cinemas screens I visited over the years were pretty good (with Northpark #1 being excellent).

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-23-2002, 08:48 PM:

AMC at Disney downtown is supposed to be THX certified as part of there lease and I did notice a lot of improved over AMC norm

Peter said "I wonder if anyone has ever made up a list of former THX houses that have failed to renew certification. I recall many Cineplex-Odeon auditiora in Toronto that were once THX but dropped the certifications after a short while. They still offered great presentations, however. Fairview 1, Canada Square 2 & 3, Sherway 1,3,5 come to mind. Mind you, I think all of these are now gone entirely, but they ran for years"
All those theatres actually did the impossible and purchased the compl;ete THX crossovers and did maintain most of the standards and in the case of Fairview got recertified before they closed

Posted by Peter Dougherty (Member # 686) on 07-23-2002, 09:14 PM:

quote:
AMC at Disney downtown is supposed to be THX certified as part of there lease and I did notice a lot of improved over AMC norm.

I was recently at the AMC Empire on 42nd St. Got a great booth tour and saw MIB2 there opening week in aud. #6. Gotta say the presentation, sound and environment at that theatre is top-notch all the way, and it's on my list of places to go back to (at least the two bigger auditoria are). I don't think there are any plans to go THX here from what I was told, but I've been in THX houses that were nowhere near as good as this one--specifically the Orpheum in NY and the York and Pantages (when it ran as a cinema) in Toronto.

By way of comparison with the only other AMC theatre I've visited, I was much more enthused about the presentation in the Empire 25 in NY that at the Kennedy and 401 complex in Toronto--that scratched print on OPENING NIGHT of Saving Grace left a reel--er--real impression!

Posted by Peter Dougherty (Member # 686) on 07-23-2002, 09:33 PM:

quote:
All those theatres actually did the impossible and purchased the complete THX crossovers and did maintain most of the standards and in the case of Fairview got recertified before they closed.

Amazing what a couple of outstanding sound techs can do, eh?

Actually, now that I think about it, and if I recall correctly, Fairview also once had THX in #2 and #6 as well. I knew about #1 getting recertified--it reverted about a month after I moved from the Fairview.

Sherway re-certified at least one of their old THX houses after they renovated, and I'm not sure if any of the new ones were THX'd as well. I seem to recall seeing something in THX in what had been Cinema 5 when I'd worked there (but I don't recall what that auditorium was renumbered to post-renovation; #8 or #9 maybe?).

I just did a quick lookup in Eye magazine online and unless I'm missing something, it looks like the York and the Hyland are both gone!

At the risk of straying off topic a bit here, what's been closed in the last couple of years since I left? I heard the Sherway went as well--what's being done to that building? I always liked it.

Glad to see I was mistaken about Canada Square being closed--another of my favourite booths--nice to see it's still running.

I know they tore down the Hollywood (what a waste of a beautiful theatre!), and I heard about Famous' plans to shutter the Uptown/Backstage and the Eglinton, but I see the Uptown is still open.

BTW, I saw the before and after pictures of the Kingsway's booth. Sorry to see my old Magnarc Type G's are gone! I really loved those old beasties--I'd gladly have bought them if I were still in town and had the space to store them. I put a lot of hard work into those, and I'm glad to see they gave a few more years of life to the Show.

------------------
Cheers,
Peter, W2IRT

No trees were harmed in creating this message, however several thousand electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2002, 09:40 PM:

I too have been quite pleased with the FILM presentations at the AMC Empire on 42nd Street in NYC. But I was disappointed with very poor tone scale with POTA in Digital Cinema last August, and "digital hiccups" forced them to use the film backup print for "Ice Age" when I visited in March (Ted Costas wrote that it took almost a week to fix). Their projectionist wrote about additional problems in Boxoffice magazine earlier this year.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Jim Leko (Member # 1287) on 07-23-2002, 09:43 PM:

At my theater, we usually don't have THX, or digital format trailers attached to the film (managers always change the schedule mid-day). We did do it for Attack of the Clones though. Put both the THX, and Dolby Digital trailers on the 2 prints that were playing in our 2 THX houses. This was great until they gave us an interlock at the last second, to a non-THX SR-D screen. Oh well, I guess we could claim the PRINT was THX certified, and that was enough.

BTW, if you were wondering...
16 screens
2 SR-D EX (THX Cert)
3 SR-D
5 DTS
4 SDDS
2 SR

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-23-2002, 10:22 PM:

Cinemark did away with THX in 1995 in favor of using the money to purchase DTS units. The cost was $5000 a year per screen to keep the liscence up. All THX equipment were removed. Processors were converted from cp55's to ultra-stereo 1000 and DTS units installed in all former THX houses. THe peavy amps that were being used stayed set up for bi-amplification with the use of a crossover plugged into the back of each amp.

From what I also have been told, how factual I am not sure, that one reason Cinemark got rid of THX was because of an agreement they had in Mexico or somewhere international that they would have exclusive instelations of the THX systems. THX apparently failed to keep the agreement.

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 07-24-2002, 05:05 AM:

quote:
I was recently at the AMC Empire on 42nd St. Got a great booth tour and saw MIB2 there opening week in aud. #6. Gotta say the presentation, sound and environment at that theatre is top-notch all the way <snip>

If you like the sound coming at you from somewhere above the screen, anyway.... although admittedly I got used to it, perhaps being more distracted by evaluating the quality of the digital "Ocean's 11" I saw there.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-24-2002, 12:39 PM:

Peter, I agree, the AMC Empire (built into the old Brandt Empire Theatre building) 42nd St has excellent presentation values. I am so impressed that the curved screen is making a come-back. UA at Sheepshead Bay here in Brooklyn renovated a number of the screens in their multiplex (I think it is up to maybe 18 screens) and put in large, curved screens. Now all they need to do is put in projectionists; nearly all five trailers ran out of frame -- I mean REALLY out of frame -- frameline in the middle of the screen, when I saw INSOMNIA there; not a good impression for the grand opening after the renovation -- the non-functioning air conditioner didn't help either.

Christopher, they have speakers above the screen at the AMC, not behind it? Interesting. I wonder why. Could be for that extra bit of light they save for their DLP projection? You gain about 5% more light with a solid sheet as opposed to perfs and that might mean the difference between using that 7000W xenon which DLP needs to fill a 40 ft (!) screen as opposed to maybe a 10KW bulb that they would need to use if they were projecting on a perf screen! The joys of E(ek)-Cinema. heh heh.

And yes, John, agreed; there was a LOT lacking in their DLP presention of SW:Ep2 -- tone scale, contrast, a little thing called FOCUS -- all spoken about here before. And if you went from the DLP auditorium to #9 next to it as I did to see the same film, the short-comings of the DLP presentation were even that much more obvious. I also saw JURASSIC PARK 3 in digial there with equal disappointment.

In our big theatre our speaker systems are above and on the sides of the sheet, not behind it. Works fine -- as long as the speakers are not visible, the brain marries the sound to the screen. We have that configuration in the park venue also -- speakers on either side of the screen and center channel hanging directly above it. Unfortunately these speakers are totally out there, hanging in plain sight so the brain is always aware of their presence and I think that has a lot to do with sound localization. As John Lennon would say: It's all in the mind.

Frank

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-24-2002, 08:12 PM:

Frank Angel said:

quote:
As John Lennon would say: It's all in the mind.

"It's all in the mind" -- George Harrison-Yellow Submarine-1968 (some 1,218 years anno Beo (A.B.); 753 years anno Magna (A.M.); 192 years anno Declaration -- when bad people (Blue Meanies) still forced their wills on good people (Pepperlanders)and demolished the human and physical landscape of beautiful pleasure domes (Pepperland).

=TMP=

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-25-2002, 12:52 AM:

Yah, I knew that. But I bet John said it too....and if not him, CERTAINLY Yoko must have.