Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Where do I get a Cyan Soundtrack for test?

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Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-23-2002, 09:58 AM:

Does anyone have the source for RED LIGHT sound track for testing purposes? I would like to have a piece of this track for testing purposes. Also, what trailers are in RED LIGHT? We would be happy to buy one just to have the assurance that we are "READY!"

KEN

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2002, 10:24 AM:

Try Fantasyland!

Ultra Stereo (USLinc.) I know was handing out samples of Dolby-Level 1K film. In the UK, I believe they have a cyan demo reel too.

However, if you have a red light reader (Jaxlight, or one of the many reverse scan LED based or laser) then you are ready.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2002, 10:42 AM:

Here is the demo film made in the UK:
http://www.davidbyrne.plus.com/Films/RedAlert.html

More links:
http://www.atlab.com.au/faq/000531.htm
http://www.dyetracks.org

It's likely vendors of red LED readers will be supplying cyan dye track test films prior to the conversion next year. Likewise, distributors will be giving ample notice before converting trailers and features to cyan dye analog tracks, and may provide test trailers prior to conversion.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2002, 12:16 PM:

"conversion next year"

Oh yeah...like that is going to happen. The "next year" scare has been around for each year leading up to this one...still no cyan junk. By next year there still won't be an installed base to justify conversion.

But test your reader, if you must.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2002, 12:50 PM:

Steve said: "By next year there still won't be an installed base to justify conversion."

As long as some sow doubt, you will reap chaos. If there isn't an installed base of LED readers, look in a mirror to find one of the reasons.

With a nearly equal mix of white light and red LED readers in place, we are left with high magenta (magenta+silver) tracks for compatibility. Going back to the old tracks (cyan+magenta+silver) will compromise one or the other. The path forward, for many good reasons already discussed, is cyan dye tracks and red LED reverse scan readers.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2002, 05:21 PM:

If I could be responsible for cyan not being adopted, I would be QUITE PROUD. The red readers are a mistake, using them is not moving forward by regressing to an inferior system. I would counsel anyone to avoid them if they could get an abundant supply of infrared. Infrared light sources work with all of the current soundtracks. Red light only kinda works with high-magenta and a few conventional tracks.

To make the claim that because of the 50/50 installed base of red readers going back to conventional optical tracks should not be done is down right silly. It is the best method available, it should be used.

The cost to switch from red to infrared is substantially less that the cost from exciter lamp to red reader...infact, only the LED need be changed. The infrared system is more roubust and stable. The cost/year of supporting an infrared reader to the exhibitor would make it's adoption over red LEDs an easy choice.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-23-2002, 09:46 PM:

I have been offered a test strip of Cyan track. The Ultra Stereo people have offered to supply a short length for looping the sound head and for testing the RED system.

Thanks again to Ultra Stereo.

KEN

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 07-24-2002, 04:48 AM:

Steve,

Who makes infrared LEDs anymore?

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-24-2002, 06:12 AM:

John,

When the FCC dictated the installation of HDTV capability there was a lot of this kind of 'waffling'. Result.. How do you like your HDTV?

When Fox opened 'CinemaScope', there was a new black box in the booth for each new film. 'Scope' is now the preferred format. Anybody remember the dual releases when you had to specify Scope or Flat from the exchange?

When the film industry gets the courage of its conviction there will be Cyan Only soundtrack features and your theatre can opt to pass them up if you are not "RED" equipped.

To suggest a very successful advertising campaign "JUST DO IT""

Steve,

The INFRAred LED systems are used for pulsed coding (tv remote controls etc.) and when any power is required, they are built into large arrays. An example of the array design is the hearing impaired assistance system which uses large infrared LED panels to cover the auditorium. These systems provide excellent sound without the need for radio broadcast or reception. The cinema sound application requires a large amount of continuous concentrated energy in a small space. The continuous generation of IR causes a problem. IR is good but heat is not good. The IR wavelengths approach heat.

KEN

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-24-2002, 08:57 AM:

Ken,

What the heck are you talking about? Before the dreaded red LEDs came out, the infrared LEDs were what was going into reverse scan readers, period.

The solar cell used in movie soundheads are infrared sensitive, not red...thus the red readers are inherently noisier.

The facts are that the IR led plays all current soundtracks, the red led can only really play high-magenta, an inferior track to conventional, and with hit/miss quality on conventional tracks.

As to this industry getting the courage to switch...not so fast, it normally WONT switch. Shoot, logic would have dictated that SCOPE would be the only format for theatres since the 1.85:1 aspect ratio (and others) can be handled by the scope lens with the proper aperture plate. The facts are, this industry couldn't even adopt a 6000' reel, something that would cost the exhibitors anywhere from little to LESS.

Christopher, have you tried ordering an IR led from Dolby? DPN32054.

It is in the same package though the polarity is often reverse of the visible red.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2002, 09:19 AM:

Kenneth: No one is "waffling". The conversion plan has always been to wait for a solid majority of theatres to have red LED readers before converting print inventories to cyan dye analog tracks.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-24-2002, 09:29 AM:

Kenneth said:
>The cinema sound application requires a large amount of continuous
>concentrated energy in a small space. The continuous generation
>of IR causes a problem. IR is good but heat is not good. The IR
>wavelengths approach heat.

First of all, ANY energy expended in the room (less any that can escape) is going to eventually turn into heat whether visible light, IR, sound waves rubbing the air molecules together, etc.

But if you're suggesting that an IR hearing impaired transmitter is going to make a significant impact in terms of heat load and air conditioning that's just silly. How many watts does an IR panel draw? The conversion rate is 1 Watt = ~3.414 BTU/H. By comparison a single human adds (depending on whose estimate you use) 300-600 BTU/H to the heat load. Married humans, too.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-24-2002, 11:58 AM:

What *I* need is a piece of that pink-ish variable density track to test on my red-readers. As yet no one has said for certain if the red readers will play THAT kind of track. And I get those prints. I know my recently upgraded red readers will play conventional tracks, I know they will play cyan tracks, but what I DON'T know is if they will play those old variable density track, which, quite frankly, I am ampt to get a lot sooner than one of the cyans. I need to know what is going to happen when I get a full feature in VD. My gut instinct tells me I am going to be in big trouble. It might even be to my advantage to rent a VD print for testing. I know of two features we ran last year, just before I put in the Kelmars were VD --THE ROBE (painful to watch, but, yes, it is WAS very wide) and CARMEN JONES, both Fox and both VD prints from DeLuxe labs. Both red as beets.

Anyone know if Kelmar made an infra-red exciter unit for their original reverse scanners? I take it since the LED cluster unit just bolts into the frame with two screws, swapping an IR for a red LED exciter wouldn't too much of a hassle. If I knew that I might have to be doing this on occasion to get decent sound from VD prints, perhaps I could outfit the clusters with mini plugs so they could easily and quickly be swapped back and forth. Maybe I can get me a couple of IRs from Kelmar.

Now I look at my red readers and ask with trepidation, "Oh, what have I done?!" I know this is going to bite me in the butt the next time I have to run a VD print, if I don't take steps to fix it now.

Frank

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2002, 12:23 PM:

Frank: I suspect the "Red" variable density tracks you saw were actually dye+silver tracks, since older "white light" tungsten readers of the 1950's required silver to modulate the infrared light the vacuum phototubes were sensitive to. The red color of the tracks is because the old pre-1980's print coupler technology cyan dye faded, making the track appear reddish (it's easier to see the color shift on a variable density track than a variable area track). Since the track still has silver in it, it should still play on a red LED reader. Modern KODAK VISION Color Print Films use much more stable dyes.

Would it be possible for you to get either print again, and actually test it?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-24-2002, 12:56 PM:

That's what I think I will do. Actually we have a very good raport with Criterion Films and I am sure there will be no problem with them sending us a reel.

I just want to be prepaired. I hate working in "crisis mode" -- discovering a problem and then needing to fix stuff all in the hour before showtime!

Frank

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-2002, 01:05 PM:

Whatever is going to happen, I'm sick of hearing about it. If the studios are hell bent on switching to cyan for whatever reason (good or bad), then just do it! Do it now! There has been more than enough warning, so switch over or stop these vauge threats. Pick one or the other, but geez enough is enough. How long has this nonsense been going on???

Shit or get off of the pot.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2002, 01:11 PM:

NATO and the Studios ARE moving ahead:
http://www.dyetracks.org/press/pr.010902.StudioSupport.html

"16 July 2002
From the National Association of Theatre Owners:
Mary Ann Grasso, Vice-President and Executive Director of NATO confimed that at the recent Spring Board and Committee meeting held in Washington, D.C May 8-10, 2002 the NATO Technology Committee expressed continued support for the conversion to cyan dye track. The Committee suggested to the Board that NATO select a firm date by which NATO member theatres' would be fully equipped with red readers. The NATO Board of Directors recommended by unanimous approval that all theatres be properly equipped with red light readers by July 3rd, 2003."

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-24-2002, 02:55 PM:

This, the same NATO, that brought you the ELR reel and polyester film? The target number has been 85% conversion before cyan adoption...none of the studios, to my knowlege, has stated they would release cyan prints with 15% of the theatres not capable of playing the tracks.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2002, 03:16 PM:

The robust ELR reel and case design that was chosen by the InterSociety Committee for the Enhancement of Theatrical Presentation (of which NATO, SMPTE, ACVL, MPAA and ITEA are members) was significantly changed by the vendor chosen by the distributors, to reduce cost. The changes led to the problems with equipment interface and poor durability. Don't blame NATO.

Polyester base film is here to stay. ESTAR base DOES have many advantages over triacetate, especially after the improvements in KODAK VISION Color Print Films, that required an investment of over $200 million by Kodak.

Every technical innovation has advantages and disadvantages compared to the previous technology. You move forward to take advantage of the innovation, and work to address the disadvantages. It's likely that the slightly lower signal-to-noise of cyan dye tracks on red LED readers will be addressed in short order as LED and reader technology improves.

There are always tradeoffs. Many feel nitrate film had a wonderful "look" that hasn't been matched, but that doesn't mean we should return to nitrate film. A monophonic optical track with noise reduction has better signal-to-noise than a stereo track --- would you have us return to mono?

Now, since Brad is sick of hearing about it, let's move on.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-24-2002, 04:47 PM:

I would love to see someone manufacture a small batch of nitrate stock using the best available technology just to see if there is any truth to it. If nothing else it might make a target to shoot for. Think of the awesomely authentic restorations that would be possible--for those equipped to play them safely.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2002, 05:59 PM:

When I think of all the nitrate film that Kodak made prior to 1950, I'm amazed the factory didn't burn to the ground! Yet, it does show that with proper safety precautions, even nitrate film could be handled safely. All the nitrate base making equipment is long gone, and I suspect the current acetate base making equipment and personnel would not be put at risk to answer curiosity.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-2002, 07:59 PM:

If whoever was responsible for designing those ELRs that New Line and Warner used wasn't such a bonehead, I do think the ELRs would have been in place by all studios by now. Instead of taking their design and giving it to knowledgeable projectionists for constructive criticism, they just manufactured them and sent them out, totally oblivious to those minor things like the reel being way too wide and the lack of a drive pin hole, not to mention the "waffle" flanges that were a dirt magnet (especially with polyester film) and that joke of a latch. All in all, I do wish that the ELR had've been designed properly and had've caught on. It would certainly have been a major improvement across the board.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-24-2002, 09:04 PM:

I personally find it very amusing that the idea of converting to DLP projection is even being discussed at this time when the industry has not been able to make even minor changes like switching to cyan-dye soundtracks and 6000' shipping reels. This is not to say that all of these are necessarily good ideas, but rather that it seems unlikely that exhibitors who won't spend $1k or less per projector to install LED readers would ever spend $100k per screen for DLP.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2002, 09:17 PM:

The InterSociety Committee evaluated six different ELR reel/shipper designs. There was quite a bit of practical testing in theatres and exchanges before the final designs were chosen. Bobby Pinkston led the effort. Then a totally different design that had never been submitted for any evaluation was used by Warner Bros. and New Line.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-24-2002, 11:21 PM:

I don't get it. If all of these industry orgs have gotten together and are convinced of the clear advantages of ELR (and you don't need a rocket scientist to understand what an improvement they would be) and they settled on a design that supposedly was tested and works, then why is it dead in the water, just because two studios opted to use a lesser design? Why did everyone throw their hands up in the air and abandon a good idea, *especially* since it is understood that the problem was with the "bastard" version of the reel/case design and not the approved one? Why not press ahead and just ignore Warner's and New Lines debachal? I thought we were about correcting glitches....not running away from them. That would be akin to the industry abandoning xenon bulbs the first few times they exploded!

Either the organizations involved are not really convinced about the need or usefulness of ELR or these guys are just wusses and not committed to making it work. Maybe we need the old-timers back -- guys like Mike Todd who made Todd-AO work and that was just one guy conjuring up, designing, testing and marketing his idea, which was a helluvalot more involved and complex than some big, goofy-looking film reel!

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-24-2002, 11:34 PM:

The guy who promoted the use at Warners retired shortly thereafter and
New Line is part of the AOL-Warners group. The design that Bob Pinkston showed at a ITEA convention a few years ago was great and he tested it by doing a dance on top of the reel ( Lord of the Rings or even the Blue Men have nothing to worry about ).
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-24-2002, 11:42 PM:

I stand corrected. Now I want to see one of these "good" 6K reels!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-25-2002, 10:03 AM:

Brad: Bobby Pinkston may still have the details, if not the reels.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-25-2002, 11:51 AM:

The reel Bobby demostrated was not the one that was finally produced by Warners....too many non-technical hands at the end in the production pot.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-25-2002, 09:29 PM:

Mr Kraus said "IR hearing impaired transmitter is going to make a significant impact in terms of heat load and air conditioning that's just silly."

I have no idea of what you are talking about! With regard to air conditioning the LED module in a soundhead. My comment was not silly.. I simply stated that the small high output IR module was inefficient. IR LEDs find their best use in pulse transmission and arrays like the hearing impaired transmitters where high power output is accomplished with multiple LEDs rather than one powerful unit in a small housing.

This takes me back to the thermodynamics lab in college.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-26-2002, 07:28 AM:

Ken said:

"Steve,

The INFRAred LED systems are used for pulsed coding (tv remote controls etc.) and when any power is
required, they are built into large arrays. An example of the array design is the hearing impaired
assistance system which uses large infrared LED panels to cover the auditorium. These systems
provide excellent sound without the need for radio broadcast or reception. The cinema sound
application requires a large amount of continuous concentrated energy in a small space. The
continuous generation of IR causes a problem. IR is good but heat is not good. The IR wavelengths
approach heat.

KEN"<<

That comment, in respect to this application is indeed silly. Since the IR light is what the solar cell is most sensitive to, less output was needed. Furthermore, less heatsinking was used on the IR systems. While your descriptions of the other uses of the IR system may very well be true, they do not pertain to the reading of optical soundtrack as used in motion picture projection systems.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-26-2002, 09:05 AM:

Steve,

Send me the part number and source of your high powered IR LED and I will evaluate it.

KEN

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-26-2002, 01:21 PM:

As I have posted several times...

Dolby part number DPN32054

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"