Apart from the penthouses and heads, have one set, know where I can find another, small tooth sprockets (only one needs changing), 2.55 aperture plates and giving everything a good going over with a demagnetiser, what else will be needed? On this site there is a manual for a Dolby MPU-1 pre-amp unit, but this only mentions using it with the CP-100 and 200. Would it be possible to use one of these with the CP-65 which she has? If so, what cards would it need in it (for two projectors, 35mm only), do they ever turn up secondhand, and what would one be likely to cost ?

This is to go into a box which is a real showpiece, makeshift looking solutions would not be popular with the owner!

It is not posible to move the optical axis, we would just have to project a slightly off-centre image, and adjust the screen masking to match, but she does this anyway, for silent films.

Thanks for any advice, I've run mag a few times, but never had to set it up.

Quite why they want to install 4 track mag when there are no mag prints available, and most modern type projectors will not have the (Fox Hole Sprockets) if they are, they are mostly in private collections or at the NFA.
 

Budget is tight, this is the private home cinema of someone I was at school with, many years ago. She bought the CP-65, and the speakers, much of the other equipment was donated, or rescued from places which were throwing it out. Two 1950s Westars with AEI xenons, 500 Watts, I think. Screen is about three metres. I have projected there from time to time for her and her husband. It's several hundred miles from where I live, so I don't get to see them very often. Equipment has been restored to the condition it was in when it left the factory. I wish I had something like this, (and somewhere to put it). I installed some of the equipment, including the original sound system, about five years ago, but not the CP-65, which went in quite recently.

"Quite why they want to install 4 track mag when there are no mag prints available, and most modern type projectors will not have the (Fox Hole Sprockets) if they are, they are mostly in private collections or at the NFA."

She is a keen film fan, and collector, has several friends who are the same, and wants to be able to run original magnetic prints. At the moment she has my 'Perspecta' card on loan for something she ran recently, and has talked about setting up for 3D.

Maybe I shouldn't have said that only 35mm is needed; It wouldn't surprise me if I heard hat she had picked up a pair of DP-70s from somewhere, and had them installed!

 

The SMART SMP-435 is out of production.

If you can find an old SMART SMP-430 it has the filter for the control tone. One nice thing is it will handle two projector 4-track and is only 1-U tall. If memory serves, there are two tunable filters to allow you to dial out the 12KHz tone based on how your projectors run.

For Dolby, you would need an MPU-1 35/2. It also needs a 24VDC power supply. It would also need the optional Cat. 93 12KHz switch card. Dolby's MPU is also now discontinued.

Panastereo offers a 1-U MPU (the number escapes me at the moment) in addition to their world famous CSP-4600.

The CSP-4600 will add true mag capability to the CP-65. It has the 35mm 4-track stuff built in. For a 2-projector system, you would need an additional mag preamp card (it comes with one 6-channel card)...it would then feed to the CP-65.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

quote:

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"Quite why they want to install 4 track mag when there are no mag prints available, and most modern type projectors will not have the (Fox Hole Sprockets) if they are, they are mostly in private collections or at the NFA."

---

I thought that all sprockets were still made to fit Foxhole. As during the last five years I had replacement intermittent assemblies, and replaced all the sprockets on the Westar (Century) projectors, and RCA 9031 soundheads. All renewals were definitely Foxhole type, I could still run a 2.55:1 grid 4 track magnetic test film.

Are standard hole sprockets fitted to the latest Kineton projectors, or is there still an option ?

Ben,

Interesting that a Panastereo System is installed at the NFT 1. These processors have been highly spoken of in another thread, I seem to remember. Are there any other installations in the UK, and who is the supplier ?? Thanks.

"The original VKF sprocket was designed over 30 years ago with the intent of reducing film damage, projector maintenance and cleaning. It was designed to handle both standard 35mm and cinemascope prints. Since the only 35mm format in use today is per ANSI 139-1996 (ks ), LaVezzi has redesigned the VKF sprocket accordingly. This design, known as ‘VKFII’, has wider teeth which are centered on the perforations."

Couldn't find any 4 track pink noise anywhere, tried all over the place. Finally found some, somebody who used to be a projectionist had some; he works in the same college as me! (Different department.)

Per
 

Brad, you'll never get my 35mm mag stash! Though I have striped PN, some use full coat pink noise (more available) and take into account the fringing compensation (due to the full coat having a wider track than the striped media). It will show up as an exaggerated bass. Also, track 4, surround will have the perforations mucking with you.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

quote:

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I would not use VKF sprockets unless you know the mag film has not had any shrinkage. I have mag and some films I have will not line up properly on VKF sprockets. Others prints will. I am in the process of replacing my sprockets with new C/S ones. We ran all types of sprocket holes on C/S sprockets for years in the theatres with no problems. I would rather use the VKF's but not at the risk of damaging the film. There should be some old Dolby CP-100's around with MPU-1 with them for a reasional price in your neck of the woods. They work very nice in a home. Best of luck in your project.
Dick

---

Well, I got up there yesterday, It's about a five hour journey each way, so I didn't have long there, but I did get one machine working, at least in 3 channel.

Had a lot of problems, firstly the roof of the box is rather low, and getting the heads in the right position, without the top of the spool box hitting the roof was not easy; I had made up some adapter plates, but they needed some metal removed from ne side of them, befofe they would fit on the projectors. No chance of finding a milling machine anywhere nearby, even the nearest village is about 5 km away, so I had a couple of hours work with a file.

A friend of the family is an electrician, and they had him run some steel conduit from where the penthouses would be to the sound rack, with a flexible section to connect to the machines, and a cord run through for pulling the cable. Nice job, cables pulled through for both machines, and couduit connected to the one penthouse I had taken up in about ten minutes. These penthouses are amasingly large and heavy, there is no way I could have carried both, and the pre-amp unit, on the same day.

MPU and power supply installed in rack, no problems, cables connected, no problems, demagnetise everything, this is going too well. Lace up a loop, and can get sound, plus hum, on L,C and S, hum only on R. Getting rid of hum takes about an hour, but still no right output. It turns out to be a faulty 'B' channel on a pre-amp card, and others are at home, so cannot fix this until the next visit. I swap the two cards over, so we can at least get the three main channels up.

There was one reel of old mag-opt print there for me to run, I'm not sure what it was, looked like one of the '50s epics, but I didn't recognise it. Picture was just slightly faded, but not too bad, I ran the half width optical track. You don't realise how much optical tracks have improved since the '50s until you hear them together, I had taken a trailer with SR on it so I could hear what the new sound system was like. Switching between the two was quite remarkable. Now for the moment of truth, switch to the mag.

I never heard a great deal of mag on 35, much more on 70, but the memories came back, it really does sound quite different to optical, and was exactly as I remember it in the '60s and early '70s. I must have done something right. It was bit hissy, but I never found a small amount of hiss too much of a problem, mains hum and distortion is far worse for me. After a bit of tweaking decide it sounds better with the hf turned down a shade on the pre-amps.

There were some friends of the family in the house at the time, so we put on a quick show, three cartoons, two in mono, one in Perspecta, the trailer in SR, a pity we didn't have any Dobly A available, and finished up with the odd reel of mag. One problem I hadn't thought of was lack of non-magnetic spools, I could only find two, but I know where I can get hold of some more. I took a CS sprocket with me, to replace the unsuitable top one on the second machine, but didn't have time to fit it yesterday.

I still need to modify the other adapter plate, fit the penthouse and sprocket on the second machine, install the other pre-amp cards and the Cat 93, I think I may have found one, but am waiting for a reply to an e-mail. A pair of 2.55 aperture plates will be needed, the second machine needs connecting up, as does the change over, but that will have to wait until the next time I can get up there.

Now for the big problem, and it's nothing to do with the sound. When I went into the box, one of the lamphouses had been removed, and replaced by a Kodak Carousel slide projector. It turns out that during a show at Christmas, they have only used the machines once since then, one of the rectifiers had caught fire, nothing serious, it was soon put out. These rectifiers are horrible things, very small, about the size of two shoe boxes, but noisy, hot, and have far more ripple than is good for a xenon, so their demise is not a matter for great regret. The problem is what to replace them with. The existing xenon setup is not good, the small 500W lamps do not align correctly, whatever you do, screen illumination is low or eneven, or both. The Carousel, with a lens focusing the light into the gate, gives a picture almost as bright, and more even, but the colour is poor. Just getting a new rectifier does not really solve the problem, getting two smaller xenons will cost money, and they are thinking about installing halogen lamps instead. That would be a pity, but might at least be a short term solution, so they can at least put on a reasonable show; changing over beteen a xenon and the halogen in the Carousel looks really bad.

They only run film a few times each year, most of the time they use Laserdisc or DVD, installed in a cabinet in the auditorium, with a small LCD projector, and using the same amplifier/speaker system as for film. The only expensive thing they have bought which is for film only is the processor, which they tell me they got for a very good price as it had some serious fualts, which they managed to get fixed for free. Anyway, they don't want to spend large amounts, or anything if they can help it, on new lamps at the moment. Another problem is that they want to keep the machines looking 'right', and something like the small Orcon lamphouses with built-in power supplies would look odd on these machines. Also, they have only single phase power available. There is three phase in their farm buildings, but putting in a cable from there, several hundred metres away, would be very expensive. Maybe 400W halogens in the existing lamphouses would be the best answer in the short term.

quote:

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Baby Orcons don't look odd behind 1950's Westars, I've got loads like that on service. If you can get a couple of healthy Orcon 1000B then you're home and dry. Nice and small, single phase and the light is really good if the unit is in good order and working properly. Beware mirrors are not cheap, and the main transformer is, or was available, but is serious money. If they didn't like the colour you could always refinish the outer case to match the Westars, well closely math, it's bound to have faded and have 50 years of soot, oil and much ingrauined in by now.

---

You do have a lot of the Orcons up there, don't you, I remember when we did the Cumbria visit, they were almost everywhere we went. I think they do look odd, they look too small, and they cetainly don't look '50s. It's a pity they wouldn't look right, as they would be ideal, otherwise. I must have a picture of one of them somewhere, I could show it to them, and see what they think, but I dont think they will like it. I have seen them used is several places where they didn't work very well, but the main problem seems to be that people use them on screens which are too big for them. This is a slightly bigger screen than I thought, it's just slightly under four metres, with the masking right out for scope, so they would be fine for that.

There's no soot or oil, I even have to be careful not to leave a fingerprint anywhere it would show, they actually give me a cloth to wipe anything I've touched! When they were given the machines they were in good condition, but they had them completely restored, and they look as if they are from a makers showroom. the original sound rack is there as well, and can stil be used, but the new one sounds better.

quote:

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Excuse my bluntness, but for people who don't want to spend a penny on equipment, maybe they shouldn't be quite so picky about the aesthetics of the "look" of the equipment.

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I don't think I should comment on that!

quote:

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Godo point Frank, and it can't look any worse than a carousel slide projector sat on the lamphous beam!

---

True, but at least the Carousel was only put there for one show. I did use it yesterday, but that wasn't their intention when they put it there. Neither it, nor the old xenons really give acceptable results. That is the reason that they have only put on one show since the fire.

They are going to have to get something, because those machines ai'nt going to be showing aynthing the way they are now, which is a pity, because it's a nice set-up. I wonder if it would be possible to mount one of the smallest Orcons inside the existing lamphouses, so they would still look the same. They normallly don't show film during the Summer, but do about one show a month during the rest of the year. Summer will soon be over, so they will have to decide soon what they are going to do about it.

To be honest, they can be quite difficult to deal with. They are a quite reclusive couple, they live miles from anywhere, and have no telephone at home. The nearest public telephone is at least two miles away. The only way to communicate with them is by letter, or a 300 odd mile journey to get there. The nearest station is a long way away, trains are infrequent, and there is no bus from the station to anywhere within miles of where they live. They were not keen on me asking for advice on this forum, they made me promise not to reveal where it is, and they have never let me take any photographs of their set-up, which is a pity, it's a very nice looking place.

I will have to go back sometime to finish setting up the mag equipmeent. It will probably be at the end of next month, I don't think I will have time before then, I will see if they have done anything next time I am there.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

I've got a picture of a Orcon on the back of a '70s Century if that's any help.
 

------------------
Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
 

Anyway, I think we have a solution, at least a temporary one. They didn't like the sound of the Orcons; they do like the sound of the Magnarcs, and they have a pair, which I'd forgotten about until somebody suggested using them. When they were given the Westars they were also given various spools, rewinders etc, the AEIs then in use, plus the original Magnarcs, which had been removed sometime previously, and are in their large storeroom, long disused, but should be useable.

When I go back to finish the magnetic installation, they will put me up overnight, and the next day we will try to get the Magnarcs working.

Any advice on re-instating long disused lamps, apart from cleaning and oiling? I do remember that one of the mirrors has a crack in it, will this cause any great problem? What they don't have of course are the rectifiers.

I have a pair of B&H 609s, which I need to move from where they are now, so I am looking for storage space. They have lots of storage space, so the idea is that they will store the 609s and I will try to get the Magnarcs to run from the 609 rectifiers. These things are designed to output 30 Amperes, and burn 5.5 and 6.5 carbons. These are much smaller the ones normally used in the Magnarcs, but I could make up holders for them, it ought to work, the only problem then would be getting them to feed at he right rate, that might take a bit of fiddling to get right. A 30 Ampere arc should be fine on a 4 metre screen. I have enough of these carbons to last for years to come at a few shows per year. I also have some larger ones, which were intended for Magnarcs, but I don't know how they would react to burning at a reduced current.

I get my 609s stored, they get their Westars back in use, and if they want to they could even set up one of the 609s, there is room, so they could run 16mm. They bring down one of the farm trucks to pick up the gear, and me, but other than the price of the deisel, it doesn't cost them anything.

Can anyone see any problems with this?

 

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

I just saw a news item about how new long lengths of welded railroad rails are suffering much more buckling from the recent hot spell, compared to the old style "clickity clack" rails that allowed for thermal expansion:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/rdv/volpe/pubs/techppr/trk-risk.pdf
http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/infrastruct.htm

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

The neat thing is when they transport 20-30 long strands spanning many specially equipped rail cars (later to be field welded into longer strands). The train and all those rails must bend as the train curves. Thus the two rails the train is riding on are capable of making all the rails aboard the train bend. The track as a structure, with rails spiked to ties, and ties embedded in ballast is much stronger than the rails alone!
 

I'll take my car (or for long journeys, an aeroplane) any day...

Stephen: in answer to your question about mobile 'phone reception, if your previous reference to Cumbria means that is where your friend lives, then reception there is a well-known problem. In fact, house prices have rocketed in some Lake District villages where there is no reception at all and no immediate prospect of a mast being built, because mobile 'phone haters like me (though with rather more money than me, alas) have been snapping them up.

quote:

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Rail failure (I can't remember the exact details, but it was something to do with a crack) also caused a fatal train crash in North London a couple of years back.

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Guage corner cracking, at Hatfield, the aftermath of which almost brought the whole system to a halt.

Broken rails have also cuused several other major accidents, but then so have bad weather, drunken drivers, defective vehicles (road and rail), signal faults, human error and many other factors. The probability of any particular train journey ending in a serious accident are extremely small.

quote:

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I'll take my car (or for long journeys, an aeroplane) any day...}

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I cannot do one, and I would avoid doing the other, If I possibly could. You are quite welcome to do either, if you so wish; unlike some people on the transport newsgrougs, I do not try to tell other people how they should travel.

quote:

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Stephen: in answer to your question about mobile 'phone reception, if your previous reference to Cumbria means that is where your friend lives, then reception there is a well-known problem. In fact, house prices have rocketed in some Lake District villages where there is no reception at all and no immediate prospect of a mast being built, because mobile 'phone haters like me (though with rather more money than me, alas) have been snapping them up.

---

All previous references to Cumbria were in relation to a CTA visit there some years ago. The private cinema I have been working on, and about which I have asked for advice on this forum is, by co-incidence, also in Cumbria, but not related. I think their remote location, many miles from a public cinema was one of the reasons they set up their own one. The equipment came from Yorkshire. I wish they would let me take some pictures, it's a very nice place, wood panneling, red velvet curtains, and all.

I know very little about mobile 'phones, I wouldn't really have any use for one, so I didn't know how good, or bad, the coverage was in remote areas. The thing which really annoys me about 'phones, mobile or otherwise, is people who insist on shouting into them.

I will definitely be going to Newcastle soon, but I don't know the date yet, I will try to get to see tho Odeon, and the other cinema, while I am there.

The only thing I'd add about drunk drivers and defective vehicles is that these are factors which are largely within your control. By making sure you drive sober, and by using defensive driving techniques designed to enable you to deal safely with other drunk drivers should you come across them, it is within a driver's power to vastly reduce the chances of him or her being involved in an accident. Similarly by making sure brakes, suspension and tyres are in a good condition (something which I, personally, do), you can minimise the chances of losing control of the vechicle due to a mechanical failure. On a train you have no control whatsoever over any of these things, and that's what scares me. The engine driver could be totally rat-arsed and the brake pads worn out: the first you'd know about it would be waking up in hospital (or in another world).

Getting back - sort of - to the topic, the Tyneside Cinema is holding a 'heritage day' on Sunday 15 September, and I believe there are plans afoot for projection box tours. We'll also be screening a programme from the Northern Region Film and Television Archive's holdings. The day is still in the planning stage as yet, but I'll post something when everything's been finalised.

I have travelled by rail twice in the last five years, once from Edinburgh to Stockport, when I started this job and was collecting my car etc, once from Edinburgh to Peterborough and back, I was going to visit a terminally ill colleague. Both journeys were absolute nightmares and I swore after the Peterborough trip that it would be a cold day in hell before I went anywhere by train again, thus far I never have.
 

quote:

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No offence intended on the trains issue. I've just had so many bad experiences with them (which includes knowing someone who was killed in the Paddington crash) that I'm very seriously prejudiced against them. And the fact that there seems to be a fatal crash between York and London pretty regularly (it seems to happen about once a year on average) doesn't help, either. I always spend that two hours wondering if I'm going to get out at the other end alive.

---

There's a lot wrong with the railways today, unreliability, disruption to services, high cost etc., but I certainly don't think you are less safe on a train than in a car. Obviously, you take a risk every time you make a journey by train, as you do with any other form of transport, and you are correct when you say the the risk is outside your control. In a car, some factors are within your control, but many are not, the best you can hope to do is to take evasive action if they happen. The better driver you are, the better your chances of avoiding an accident in these circumstances, but there
is still a considerable element of luck.

In the last few years we have seen a cluster of serious accidents on the railways, Hatfield, Heck and Potters Bar on the East Coast route, and Southall and Ladbroke Grove on the Great Western line. This has happened in the past, Purley happened not long after Clapham Junction, and these were quite close too. At other times you can find several consecutive years with no serious accidents. If you look at the history of railway accidents, this has always been the case, there have allways been 'bad' years, sometimes several of them together. This makes it quite difficult to see trends in the figures, you have to look at trends over long periods. In a very bad year, there are typically a few tens of railway passengers killed, of course each of them is a tragedy to those involved, but the number, as a proportion of passenger journeys made, is very small. The really bad accidents of the past, Quintinshill, Harrow & Wealdstone etc. where hundreds were killed, are exremely unlikely to happen again, due to the much better crash worthiness and fire resistance of trains today. Even the B.R Mk.1s, which there has been some fuss about recently, are much safer than the older, wooden-bodied vehicles, which often resulted in high casualty rates, even in quite minor accidents. Even in the worst of railway accidents today, most passengers are unharmed, or have only minor injuries. This includes Clapham Junction, very severe accident and Mk.1 stock.

With best case years of zero deaths, and worst case of a few tens, the average is probably about ten per year.

The average number of deaths on british roads is over three thousand per year. At one time, I used to travel a great deal by rail, many times the distance by road at that time. The worst railway accident I have been involved in was a buffer stop colision at about one mph, a bit of a jolt, but no harm done. The worst anyone I know has suffered is a broken arm while standing on a platform, and being hit by an open door as a train pulled in. This risk is now much reduced my most trains having sliding doors, or central locking.

I have been involved in one accident in a car, and servral in buses. Near misses happen about once a week. I have known four people who have been killed in road traffic accidents, and many serious injuries. I recently saw flowers left at accident sites in three separate places in just a few kilometres, two of them between New Addindton and Croydon. Today I saw some on the way home from work, which were not there a few days ago. Almost every edition of the local paper will have at least one fatal accident in it. On Tuesday, my bus was diverted by the police between Coulsdon and Redhill because of an accident at a junction, one car was on its side, goodness knows how that happened, it's not a high speed road. I don't know if there were any injuries.

Of course, I never hear about most road deaths in other parts of the country, because only the most major road accidents ever make it to the national newspapers, or television news.

quote:

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The only thing I'd add about drunk drivers and defective vehicles is that these are factors which are largely within your control. By making sure you drive sober, and by using defensive driving techniques designed to enable you to deal safely with other drunk drivers should you come across them, it is within a driver's power to vastly reduce the chances of him or her being involved in an accident. Similarly by making sure brakes, suspension and tyres are in a good condition (something which I, personally, do), you can minimise the chances of losing control of the vechicle due to a mechanical failure. On a train you have no control whatsoever over any of these things, and that's what scares me. The engine driver could be totally rat-arsed and the brake pads worn out: the first you'd know about it would be waking up in hospital (or in another world).

---

On the road, the condition of your velicle, and its driver, is largely within your control, not totally, a part could have been fitted which was defective without being obviously so, if you do not do your own servicing it is possible that the mechanic who does could make a mistake, and you could have a sudden heart attack at the wheel. The condition of other vehicles, and the abilities of their drivers is totally outside your control. A small mistake by a train driver is far less likely to cause an accident than a small mistake by a car driver; trains run much further apart, and there are various safety systems, AWS, TPWS, DVD etc. fitted, which aim to stop the driver causing an accident. They are not perfect, not all accidents are prevented by them, but a car driver has nothing similar. Even if a train driver were to drop dead at the controls, on a busy line, which did happen a few years ago, it is unlikely to cause an accident. Is the same true of a car driver?

A train driver turning up drunk, or under the influence of drugs, is very likely to be spotted, a car criver, probably not.

Of course, to those involved in accidents, and those close to them, it makes little difference whether it was on road or rail, but do you really feel you are at greater risk in a train than in a car?

The fact that you don't like trains is a good reason for not using them. The risk of being killed in an accident seems to me to be a bad one, given the risks of the alternatives.

Both sound and picture are very good on the few minutes of film I've seen/heard so far, I'm looking forward to seeing a whole film sometime soon, maybe Christmas.

 

Dolby made the cat. 93, as an extra card so you could put into your
MPU 1 & playback older 12khz format mag.
Dolby cinema sound was new around 1975. So Dolby made only so many
cat. 93 cards that was the last year for that card.