Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Signs unusually dark???

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Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 08-03-2002, 06:03 PM:

Am I the only one who is having a problem with Signs being really dark? I was getting complaints all day today and yesterday that Signs was really "dark". After speaking to a district supervisor, it became apparent that this problem was common throughout Toronto. Is there anyone else who might have any thoughts on this or insight on the issue??

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 08-03-2002, 06:17 PM:

How big is your screen image? what is the wattage of your lamp. Could possibly be a lab problem as well, but I've heard the film is really dark. If you don't have quite enough light hitting the screen, a really dark film will prove it.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 08-03-2002, 07:04 PM:

SIGNS is a very dark film, and it will definitely not look good in a poorly adjusted theatre. Theatres that have skated by on dim projection will definitely have trouble with this film. This might not be a film to see on a giant screen unless there is excellent illumination.

Posted by Matt Walker (Member # 1378) on 08-03-2002, 07:21 PM:

I have had Customers come up to me and tell me that it is a Dark print and that they are happy my competition didn't get it down the street or they would probably be paying 6.50 for a black screen.
That stood there telling me all of this with the Twins Manager standing there talking to me, which to me was quite a funny little situation.
But anyways back to the subject it is definitely a dark flick.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-03-2002, 10:49 PM:

It is a dark print, but I have not heard of any audience complaints in our theatres - yet.

Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 08-07-2002, 03:19 AM:

Well, I know it probably isn't the bulb or anything because with whatever method that I used to calculate wattage to screen size, my bulb is about approx 200 watts brighter than it should be. There were tons of complaints opening weekend about how "dark" the movie is but even when I screened it Thursday night, I found it to be a tad dark anyway. Just wanted to see if anyone else had the same "fun" with the customer's feedback!

Posted by Rick Sanjurjo (Member # 1365) on 08-07-2002, 07:55 AM:

Alex,

The calcultations are only a ballpark they can not tell you if you have adueqate light on the screen. The only way yo know if you have enough light is to measure the amount of light with a light meter. Unfortunately light meters are expensive but your local tech will probably have one. Next time the tech is in the theater have him check your light levels.

Rick

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2002, 09:35 AM:

Generally, the color balance and density of the picture is evaluated and approved by the cinematographer and director viewing an answer print in the lab's screening room, which is maintained at 16 footlamberts, per standard SMPTE 196M. The lab also approves a "check print" from each printing negative, and maintains control of color and density using control patches printed in the leader.

If you are below the 12 to 22 footlambert screen luminance allowed by SMPTE 196M, a print with lots of dark scenes will not look good:
Let There Be Light
Measuring Screen Luminance
Light Meters
SMPTE Standards

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Alex Grasic (Member # 1371) on 08-07-2002, 01:00 PM:

Well, it was our tech who did the last bulb change in that theatre so I am assuming that it is appropriate. Does the THX "certifiction" have any play with image quality in the corresponding theatre?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2002, 01:15 PM:

The Film-Tech "Manuals" section has the THX Theatre Alignment Program (TAP) Guidelines, which are based on the SMPTE Standards:
TAP Guidelines

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-07-2002, 01:27 PM:

THX recertification does include image light/ focus resolution and apperture sizes.
Some slack is often cut on light levels on reely large screens as it is virtually impossible to put 16fl through a 35mm apperture on some of these 60+ foot wide screens

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2002, 02:15 PM:

Gordon said: "...it is virtually impossible to put 16fl through a 35mm apperture on some of these 60+ foot wide screens"

Not impossible, but sometimes a challenge.

Properly curved gain screens will help.

Huge screens just shine with the "Splendor of 70mm":
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/dec98.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/march99.shtml

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-07-2002, 02:49 PM:

To get 16fl with even coverage over wide viewing angles on images much bigger than 60 through 35mm is virtually impossible especially with the wide seating angle that large of screen will imply and the fact that people will be seated down close (since the throw is probably equal to the width of the image)tends to make gain screens slightly less desirable
As for 70mm you are singing to the choir on that issue

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2002, 03:17 PM:

I really miss the days when theatres had projection throws larger than the screen width, and a 50mm lens was considered to be a short focal length.

I said that "properly curved gain screens will help", but I agree that it's kind of tough to get good uniformity at the edge of the front row in these cases.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-07-2002, 03:47 PM:

The print I ran a week & a half ago, looked good for being a high number (#2000) print from Technicolor. Most of the time I get
EK, Wetgate prints.

From the letter in the SIGNS print can:
If you have any questions or problems regarding your presentation,
please do not hesite to call THX's Film Services Hotline at
1-800-545-2525.