Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Theatre Staff projectionist Sucks!

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-12-2002, 02:26 AM:

I was looking forward to "SIGNS" since I first heard of the movie and saw the trailer for the first time and made up my mind to see it in the best theatre when it opens in Hawaii. I opened here two weeks ago with the rest of the nation and my favorite theatre, the Waikiki Twins was one of the venues playing the movie. For those of you who are not familiar with the Waikiki Twins, each of the two auditorium can accommodate a little under a thousand people and they both have a 60 foot screen. The two auditoriums are capable of playing films in 35mm and 70mm and it was a pleasure to see a lot of large format films in these houses. Theatre #1 is only set up with SDDS-8 with a Dolby EX unit and Theatre #2 has both SRD and SDDS-8 with Dolby EX. Both of the auditoriums features John Allen's top of the line XL class HPS-4000 sound systems and they are awesome.

Until recently Consolidated Theatres (Pacific) had two professional projectionist working at the theatres including Film Tech member Chris Siu but I just learned from my friend Alan Sakaida, Pacific's sight and sound head technician that the Twins now have management personal in the booth running the show at all times. The presentations at the WAikiki has always been flawless until today. The pre show advertisments and the analogue poicy trailer sounded flat with no surround but I had no problem with that but I was shocked when the SDDS digital sound and all of the movie trailers with digital tracks also played with no sound coming from the surround speakers. I immediately complained but nothing was done with the surround sound until the movie was half over. What little I heard when the surrounds featuring Dolby EX kicked in sounded great especially when the alien (s) was breaking into the house. I stayed to watch the trailers and the first 15 minutes of "SIGNS" again at the next show and the presentation this time was flawless and everything sounded great! It was unfortunate that my timing was bad and I had to sit through a sub standard performance because an unskilled person was in the booth

It is very sad to see a wonderful theatre fall victim to cooperate greed and play their films in a unprofessional manner. If this trand continues, I think I will upgrade my picture and sound and watch all my movies at home. When I do, it will include a 16 X 9 High definition projection screen and the best sound system featuring both Dolby EX and DTS ES. I have a great system now but if I plan to see all of my movies at home instead of a theatre, I want to get the best equipment I can afford.

-Claude

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-12-2002, 05:53 AM:

Claude,

Your story is sad, but it is what's happen every time I go to the theater in my town. Sound devices are often left to their destiny (I saw a 6 screen multiplex with CP500 and SA-10 with no projectionist in the booth: who select EX or no-ex???) and the result is what you've heard.

It's funny, I too come to your solution: arrange a hi quality setup Home Theater in my house, partially using professional devices.

It's sad, but sometimes it is the only thing that a real "moviegoer" can do.

Bye

------------------
Antonio Marcheselli
Florence, Italy

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-12-2002, 06:13 AM:

Isn't DTS-ES the same thing (conceptually) as Dolby EX?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-12-2002, 08:41 AM:

Sounds to me like the automation didn't cue something and it ended up in analog. Or possibly the operator did not properly thread the digital reader and it couldn't track. But even the analog should have been pretty good. Someone may have knocked the A-chain out of alignment. Unfortunately this is what happens when projectionists have to do "double duty" as manager or usher. The booth runs unattended and if something misses a cue, no one knows about it.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-12-2002, 08:49 AM:

Claude: Certainly, anyone encountering poor presentation should immediately inform the theatre personnel (as you did), so hopefully the problem can be addressed immediately.

For persistent or chronic problems, it is also important to document the problem in writing, not only to the local theatre management, but to the circuit management.

Here is contact information for the major theatre circuits:
http://www.boxoffice.com/giantstop.html
http://www.boxoffice.com/issues/jul00/canada.html
http://www.boxoffice.com/issues/jul00/europe.html
http://www.boxoffice.com/issues/dec99/asia3.html
http://www.boxoffice.com/shows/cinemaexpo/2002/european_giants.html

In general, the VP of Projection/Engineering, or VP of Operations should be copied on any report of chronic problems.

Often it is a tug-of-war between the "bean counters" and the technical people within a circuit. Documentation of problems stemming from poorly choosen cost-cutting methods will help the technical people fight for "Film Done Right".

I agree with you that theatres risk losing much of their audience to home theatre unless they have "Film/Digital Done Right".

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Paul Cassidy (Member # 951) on 08-12-2002, 09:14 AM:

Claude the best thing I found to get the message through to some Cinemas is to e-mail the Head Office of the theatre Chain and let them know of your experience , at times when I've griped I thought that no one was listening , but when you put in a good word for one of their theatres it seems to be made public , so while they may remain silent on complaints ,they do hear them..... the problem is that most just shrug there shoulders and accept that this is the way it's going to be and do nothing ....When the Good do nothing the Bad Gain Strength .

------------------
A KIWI eats,roots & Leaves.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-12-2002, 12:21 PM:

Scott,

Home Dolby EX is the same as the theatre version where the rear surround sound is achieved by matrix of the right and left discreet surround tracks. Home DTS-ES is a full 6.1 discreet process without the use of matrix. Also, I have found that while Dolby digital sounds great in my home theatre, I feel that DTS is better most of the time in my humble opinion.

-Claude

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-12-2002, 12:38 PM:

Claude

While DTS does have a discrete version of their DTS-ES format for the home, VERY few (less than 5 titles, I believe) DVD movies utilize this. By far most of the DTS-ES titles on DVD use the same matrixed version that is utilized in the original 6.1 Dolby Digital EX mix. All it does is use DTS's decoders to pull out the rear information from the Left and right surround tracks. Scott is right, there is no conceptual diofference.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-12-2002, 01:07 PM:

John & Paul,

I did the next best thing when I sent an email to Alan Sakaida last night and asked him to let the local CEO at Consolidtaed Theatres read my Film Tech post and suggested Mr Yim to alert Consolidated's head office(Pacific Theatres) in Los Angeles to also read it. Let us hope that the people at the head office will read my comments I had posted about the Waikiki #2 poor sound presentation here at Film Tech and will make every effort to make sure that everyone who works in their booths are fully qualified and know what they are doing and what had happened yesterday will not happen again..

-Claude

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-12-2002, 01:14 PM:

John,

Do you really think that inform the management can solve the situation? Yes, "double-duty" personnel will left unattended the booth. But in my experience managers often do not care about the presentation. I know a very well equipped theater in my town. Biggest screen has SDDS-8, DTS, DD, EX, triamp. The projectionist told me that once he come to the manager asking him a tech because one of the digital player was faulty. He replied "no, it is not possibile". The projectionist replied with the problems encountered. The manager replied "no matter, use analog".
So I wonder "why he installed all of that stuff???".

I understand that management is the straight line to hit the point but, unfortunately, sometimes the best solution is to build our own home theater!

Bye

------------------
Antonio Marcheselli
Florence, Italy

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-12-2002, 01:39 PM:

Antonio:

As I noted, there is often a "tug-of-war" between those who want to cut costs regardless of the effect on quality, and those who really want to have good presentation. When cost-cutting measures result in chronic poor presentation, written customer feedback is one of the most useful tools those in charge of projection can use to get adequate funding.

Likewise, customer feedback is helpful in identifying those theatres that have chronic presentation problems needing attention from upper management.

Not reporting problems and retreating to the security of your home theatre does nothing to improve the quality of presentation in theatres, which is the industry we all work in.

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 08-12-2002, 01:55 PM:

Claude,

Yes, the situation is unfortunate. When I was at Waikiki I had a whole list of things to do for each show, different fader settings for each and every snipe, trailer, etc. as well as enabling the EX adapter when and only when the feature started to avoid loading the rear surrounds. None of this could be done via automation; you needed a person in the booth for the first 15 minutes of a show, period. Multiply this by even three screens and that's more time than I think management or staff doing double duty can afford to spend upstairs per set.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-12-2002, 03:02 PM:

My experience with Pacific Theatres has been mixed. I wrote a letter to corporate in Los Angeles about the Bakersfield theatres. Conditions dramatically changed...for a while.

But now things are back to the way they were. I definitely say you cannot just report to the local manager. I've done that. It does no good. Windows are back to being badly streaked (one showing a viewed recently loked like a fourth of the lens was smeared with vaseline, but when looking at the porhole it was the glass). Digital readers are not threaded up. This staff just doesn't care. So no more Pacific theatres for me. At least not in Bakersfield.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-12-2002, 03:15 PM:

John & Antonio,
I believe I was the only person to complain about the sound yesterday at the Waikiki Twins. It is a sad fact that the people who complain the most about poor sound presentation are "Movie Geeks" and Cinema professionals like us who post here at Film Tech. Unfortunately, we are in a small minority group and theatres owners know this and the likelihood that they will do anything about it is nil no matter how many times we complain. On another topic, did you ever notice that more DVD's now are being released in both full screen and original aspect ratio versions with many in full screen only? This is due to the public complaining that they do not like the black bars on the top and bottom of their TV screens. It is a sad fact that many people will complain about how the picture looks but will say nothing about the sound. This is the reason why most people are satisfied with the mono or pseuo stereo that came with their set. While a lot of people now have 5.1 sound in their homes, we are still a small minority group and will remain so because most people are not interested in good sound.

Chris,

It is very obvious from what you said that the operator who worked at the booth yesterday at the Waikiki Twins did not know or care about how to run films properly at these magnificent theatres. The only people I can fault is the management at Pacific Theatre's head office who seem to be more interested in making a profit than their customers getting their monies worth from an outstanding presentation in both picture and sound when they replaced their professional operators with staff people.

-Claude

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-12-2002, 03:35 PM:

Claude said: "It is a sad fact that the people who complain the most about poor sound presentation are "Movie Geeks" and Cinema professionals like us who post here at Film Tech. Unfortunately, we are in a small minority group."

That is exactly why it is so important for us to speak out when we encounter bad presentation. If we don't write about problems, upper management only hears of problems when passes are given out, and even then, assumes that's all it takes to "solve" the problems. If the audience ultimately goes to other theatres or stays home because of presentation problems, upper management may not make the connection and leave the problems unresolved.

Take pride in your expertise and being a "cinema professional" and let theatres and their management know when they fail your expectations.

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 08-12-2002, 03:50 PM:

Paul, I saw a movie at Pacific In Bakersfield about 3 weeks ago. I couldnt believe how dirty the print was and the image was spilling all over the wall.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-12-2002, 04:05 PM:

Did you write Carl Peterson, Scott Brazwell, or anyone else in Pacific management with the specifics?

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-12-2002, 04:47 PM:

John,

Don't read my post so "resigned"! I fully agree with you. My post was "provocative" since (particularly when I wasn't a projectionist) I tried to have a contact with the theater's staff but usually with poor results (once the projectionist attacked me because I asked him why he didn't run the credit completely... ).

I also told to my friends to complain about the problems, otherwise the manager/projectionist will think that all is going fine.

The problem is that I'm tired to complain!

Another example: once I saw a movie that was slight out of frame. Was in scope and, just in some scenes, you could saw the a little piece of the upper frame above the screen. Nothing terrible but defintively out of frame. I decided not to came out since the problem was not so big.

When the movie finished I went to the staff and told them the problem(just to have them know since they can fix the problem next day).
They answered (almost annoyed) "why you didn't tell us before? We can fix it right here, we don't need to go to the booth!". I thought that I paid for the movie and they're paid to check it! If a customer come out of my theater at the end of the movie complaying that the movie was run out of focus, I apologize with him for my mistake and I promise myself that next time I'll check the projection more frequently.

The Home theater "solution" is just because I WANT to see movie in good shape, but THERE AREN'T GOOD THEATER in my town. Sometimes I go with my friends to a very good theater in Milan, universally recognized as one of the best in the world. I have to cover 600 kilometers (372 miles if I'm rignt with the conversion)and pay about 50$ in freeway fee, theater's ticket and food. We do it sometimes, with very "important" movie (Matrix, Star Wars...). But we all come back to our town STUNNED every time!

This is why I'm a bit "resigned" and I'm starting talking of a Home Theater!

Bye

------------------
Antonio Marcheselli
Florence, Italy

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-12-2002, 04:53 PM:

I will sat the BEST experience with corporate was when I wrote Edwards Cinemas on two occasions. The last time I actually received a copy of the e-mail communication to the local manager from head of operations. This came only two days after my complaint. This concerned the lack of SRD presentations. The VP said in the letter that he had alerted to them the problem a week earlier based on my first complaint and asked why the problem I complained about wasn't fixed. He added that the chain spent considerable amounts of money changing out their basement readers for penthouse ones, and there was no excuse. I was actually surprised to be privy to internal communications.

I received a follow-up from the local manager who explained they had a technical problem in one of the auditorims. But I listed 4 or 5 theatres that werent playing back digital, either. He said I had a good ear to distinguish between Dolby A, DOLBY SR and Digital, one that he was just beginning to develop. The problem was fixed up immediately.

An earlier complaint (two years ago)at the same theatre was about filthy prints. The woman who answered me actually admitted fault, saying all theatres had film cleaning solutions and should have been used in this case. Again, I have rarely seen a dirty print since.

So with some chains, they really do care about customer complaints.

Local managers, however, sometimes don't. I visited an AMC in downtown long Beach to see FIGHT CLUB. Immediately when the EXTREMELY LONG pre-show started, the frame of the scope "package" was off at the bottom. I immediately went out to complain to an usher. When the movie started 17 minutes later, the film was still showing part of the next frame at the bottom of the screen. This time I went to the manager on duty. His response was to say rudely, "Oh, you want a refund, then?" So I took one. Guess that was easier than going up to frame the film.

So reporting to local management is no guarantee of anything. At Pacific, I've lately gotten into the habit of asking for a refund when something is wrong, and they just cheerfully give you one, saying "oh, im sorry about that" but doing NOTHING to fix the problem.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-12-2002, 05:15 PM:

I cannot fathom the logic used by many of the bean counters in the film exhibition industry, who still hold to the belief if they just put up lawn chairs in front of a ratty screen people will still show up in droves to pay full price at the box office. They figure quality doesn't matter. What's even more infuriating is you'll find many theater customers themselves saying the same thing. You'll hear things like, "no one cares about that stuff; I'm just going to see it at the closest theater so I don't have to drive so far." Or they'll utter some garbage about the crowd experience being the only thing that matters. I think I have heard all the phony-baloney arguments in favor of poor quality.

Home theater is the great equalizer in this regard. The same idiots who preach quality doesn't matter, only the shortest driving distance often become the same lunkheads later asking me, after they bought a home theater system, if a certain DVD is in 5.1, "because I ain't going to buy it if it isn't in 5.1."

It pisses me off to no end when many people out there "discover" Dolby Digital 5.1 on DVD rather than driving just a few miles farther to a theater that practices "film done right" and heard 5.1 done right in the first place. But many never figure out that angle. They think their home system sounds better than any movie theater. They believe the hype that a digital TV will deliver "theater quality images" (a Wired Magazine article used that blurb in an article about DVD driving HDTV sales).

But part of this problem is the fault of those cost cutting theater operators who allow the general public to consider poor projection and sound quality as a standard feature in all movie theaters. They let this harmful image grow and persist. The digital projection people are even using this negative stereotype to sell their inferior, overpriced gear.

The theater circuit executives had better wake up and realize home theater and HDTV is a very real threat. They better make more moves to improve movie exhibition quality in general. Claude Ayakawa is not the only one ready to give up on commercial theaters and to just wait for the DVD. Many people are already doing it.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-12-2002, 05:21 PM:

Oh, and to address the DTS-ES thing, there's not very many ES 6.1 Discrete titles available. But there are more than 5 on the market.

Saturday, I was walking through a Best Buy in Oklahoma City. I was somewhat surprised to see a lot of lower priced A-V receiver models incorporating DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete and actually labeling Dolby Digital*EX. Apparently, Dolby Labs has had a change of heart with their "no DD-EX logos on DVDs and home theater hardware" policy. The mark I saw all over the place was a combo logo (Dolby Digital*EX Pro-Logic-II).

As the 6.1 Discrete capability proliferates in hardware across the board, I would expect a growing number of DTS-ES 6.1 titles. "Blade II" kind of sucked, but its DVD will carry an ES 6.1 Discrete track (with the X-curve removed as well / no re-eq necessary). The upcoming 4-disc LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring edition will also feature DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete.

Posted by Justin McLeod (Member # 1329) on 08-12-2002, 05:41 PM:

Bobby, I worked at the 8 screen Formerly a GCC and Hollywood theater right across the parking lot from the Best Buy you went to by the crossroads mall. I worked at that theater for 6 months. I left the theater and transfered to the spotlight in norman when the bizz got so slow because of the Regal 16. Our booking agent for the hollywood 8 stopped booking the good movies for us. I always enjoyed the presentations at the crossroads 8 while I was their. The prints were always in good shape and they sounded very good. Our booth staff at the time took great pride in their work. I now hardly watch any movies at theaters now. I probably watch on a average about 10 movies a year or less at movie theaters.

I wish everybody who works with film would practiced film done right.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-12-2002, 05:47 PM:

quote:
"Blade II" kind of sucked, but its DVD will carry an ES 6.1 Discrete track (with the X-curve removed as well / no re-eq necessary).

(Sorry, a bit OT?) What is that?

------------------
Antonio Marcheselli
Florence, Italy

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-12-2002, 05:50 PM:

Antonio, Im confused as well. I certainly don't re-equalize my system between DVD discs. And while I have the Denon 3801 receiver, I don't even use the EX OR ES settings. Im not yet convinced of the need in my place to spend the extra bucks on speakers.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-12-2002, 06:02 PM:

Paul,

Bobby will explain about eq. About ES/EX, I'm not convinced too. However, if your amplifier support it...

But eventually we'll start another discussion in film-yak, otherwise Brad will anger!

Bye

------------------
Antonio Marcheselli
Florence, Italy

Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 08-12-2002, 06:25 PM:

I agree you should always let local management/projectionists know of any problems with the film, and during the film if possible. That's what they are there for and if the problem can be addressed at the theater level, you have the best situation. Letters to the home office DO work but I think they have the potential to work too well. If you don't receive good treatment or response, by all means take it higher. When I read Chris's post about fader settings for each trailer and snipe, and switching to EX as the feature starts I am impressed and also wonder how many theatres have a "system" that would allow this to happen? I am talking about proper training, staffing and people who are dedicated to stay in the booth. So in a case like that, although you may direct a problem to the home office, it may be the "system" rather than the individual that needs to change to allow for a better presentation.

Mike

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-12-2002, 08:34 PM:

Mike, the reason I stopped taking it to local management is because they have REPEATEDLY not done anything to fix the problem. Let's see, when I call attention to the problem to a staffer standing in the back of the theatre, and his response is "It don't matter," and then complaining to the manager gets a rude response, this is one theatre that gets a letter to corporate. These attitudes are not isolated. And the horrendous and botched presentations (flat films shown through scope lenses, frame raking way off, badly focused films) are met with a shrug. So I say forget the theatre.

Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 08-12-2002, 09:19 PM:

Paul, I absolutely support going up the ladder if you receive an unsatisfactory response, I'm just suggesting the local mgt should be given a chance. Any manager or projectionist who cares should welcome a customer who cares as well. A staffer, manager or projectionist who doesn't care is probably in the wrong occupation...

Mike

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 08-13-2002, 02:06 AM:

Well, I'm one projectionist that spends the vast majority of my shifts in the booth.

Of course, if some random problems pops up, and is brought to the attention of the floorstaff (before I take notice of it), they are quick to call up and let me know about the complaint - and I'm quick to tend to whatever the ailment is. Now, if only more operators were so attentive...

...It doe bug me that the lads that run shows when I'm not there are less attentive!

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-19-2002, 01:19 AM:

Paul Linfesty wrote:

quote:
While DTS does have a discrete version of their DTS-ES format for the home, VERY few (less than 5 titles, I believe) DVD movies utilize this.

Paul (and anyone else interested),
There are certainly more than five DVDs available in Region 1 with "DTS-ES Discrete 6.1" audio. In fact, there are over 20 currently available or announced, including:

BAD TASTE
THE BEASTMASTER
BONES
CAN'T STOP THE MUSIC
CHICKEN RUN
THE EVIL DEAD
GLADIATOR
THE HAUNTING
HIGHLANDER
MANIAC
OPERA
RUSH HOUR 2
SE7EN
THE STUNT MAN
SUSPIRIA
VIGILANTE
THE WATCHER IN THE WOODS

and announced:
BLADE II (9/3)
NEON GENESIS EVANGELION: THE END OF EVANGELION (9/24)
LORD OF THE RINGS: THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING (extended version) (11/12)

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-19-2002, 10:37 PM:

Michael Coate wrote:

quote:
There are certainly more than five DVDs available in Region 1 with "DTS-ES Discrete 6.1" audio.

Actually, I discovered that the other day when I found the list on Widescreen Review's web site. As usual, the completeness of this magazine's listings sets it above any other kind of home theatre magazine that I have seen.

And guess what? I actually own 6 of the titles listed!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-19-2002, 11:11 PM:

To explain about the "X-Curve," many movie soundtracks are mixed primarily with the acoustical space of a large commercial movie theater screening room in mind. Large areas of cubic air space rob many middle and high frequencies out of the air. So, often the sound engineers will pump up the treble and other parts of the mid-range to accomodate the acoustical "X-Curve".

The very existence of Home THX is largely centered around compensating for the X-Curve in movie soundtracks. Their re-eq modes are supposed to bring the sound more into the shape it should be for a smaller living room.

Of course, not all movie soundtracks on DVD are simply sourced directly from the cinema print master. Some are mixed and fine tuned with the near field character of home theater in mind. "Seven" Platinum Edition is an excellent example of that. "Blade II" is just doing the same thing. Basically, those kinds of audio tracks are supposed to make some of the features in Home THX style re-eq circuitry unnecessary.

Here's a decent link on some DD-EX and DTS-ES DVDs: http://www.docdvd.com/exdvds.shtml

And here's a good worldwide list of DVDs with DTS: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bwescombe/dts_dvd.htm