Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: You can tell when you have been had when your technician tells you:

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-17-2002, 06:25 PM:

That you must buy a new projector because your old Brenkert will not handle the new 37mm polyester film.....

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-17-2002, 06:45 PM:

...that your screen is going to be down for a few days because the projector won't work until he can fix the electric douser.

(So then I guess we need to shut down the entire complex? NONE of the projectors in this complex had functioning electric dousers.)

By the way, let's keep these REAL quotes. True stories only. Please do not mention specific names or locations.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-17-2002, 06:50 PM:

...you have to buy a new projector head because your old one won't bolt up to the console you're buying, and there is no adaptor available. (Both lies, I found out later.)

(The guy who told me this is now dead -- not my fault -- and the company he worked for is out of business.)

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-17-2002, 06:59 PM:

When an intermittant movement blows up and the technician says he can't take it out of the other non-operational mono booth because the operational booth is a stereo house, and the projector needs a "Stereo Intermittant."

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-17-2002, 07:29 PM:

That you need "black and white gates to run B&W film."

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 08-17-2002, 08:44 PM:

You can't run a 70 mm. version of a 35 print of the 1986 movie In The Shadow of Kilimanjaro-also known in German as Im Schatten des Kilimandscharo-on a DP-70 because it's not in Todd-AO format.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-17-2002, 08:52 PM:

You know you've been had when the theater manager tells you the movie is playing in analog because all digital soundtracks wear out in about 1 week.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-17-2002, 09:40 PM:

I edited this one out, because it probably belongs in a practical joke thread. I'll post it there if I can find it. I don't want to ruin the idea of this tread.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-17-2002, 10:12 PM:

Matthew, is that a TRUE story? I have a strong feeling you have made that up.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 08-18-2002, 12:03 AM:

How about when your tech cuts the wire to the exhaust fan in your rectifier because it was making noise?

By the way, the noise was the dust and dirt that got into the fan compartment, and instead of cleaning it out, he cut the wire and stuck a box fan on it and said he would be back in the morning to replace the fan. He never showed back up, so I cleaned it out, rewired it, and he never did show back up, but he did submit a bill, for guess what, "cutting power supply to exhaust fan - $75.00."

Dave

Posted by Joseph D. Olson (Member # 1340) on 08-18-2002, 01:20 AM:

...that you haven't been a projectionist long enough to have any decent stories about dealing with tech guys.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-18-2002, 01:26 AM:

...when your tech runs pink noise from an external generator and he raises the volume on the generator in order to set SPL in the cinema.

...when your tech tells you that your Altec-Lansing speakers are "all wrong for cinema use" because they're not JBL's. Note: This "tech" was really only on-hand to pull speaker wires.

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 08-18-2002, 03:57 AM:

From an operator friend: They had to remove the XL fire shutter because you can't focus the picture properly if we leave it in.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-18-2002, 09:56 AM:

You pay $35,000 (above the cost of a 35mm booth) to build a premire 70mm theater, and the tech;
Sets the masking for 70mm and 'scope at 2.21;
Puts the rectifier right next to the rewind table so mag prints are erased while rewinding;
Installs a CP200, yet buys and install an "exciter-lamp changover relay" so the sound takes an extra 1/2 second to come up after a c/o;
Runs speaker wires in the same conduit as AC wiring;
Uses 24 ga shielded wire (the same as for hooking up Dolby cells) for the auditourium subwoofer.

When you mention to a tech that you think the screen image looks cropped, he berates you (in front of your boss) saying, basically; "My work is beyond reproach, the ratio is at 2.39 like it should be!" You later find (when your boss is not around, of course) that the masking is indeed set to 2.39, but the lens is three sizes too big.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-18-2002, 11:40 AM:

-You discover that approximately 50% of the speakers in your 16 screen complex have been wired out of phase.

-Your tech insists that the onscreen flicker is the fault of the shutter, not a diode because the light does not flicker onscreen when the projector is stopped.

-Your tech goes through 3 shutter belts after installing them too tightly on the above projector with the "bad shutter".

-Your tech sets the sound levels of an auditorium by resting his SPL meter on the open port window.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 08-18-2002, 11:56 AM:

SPL check at the port window

Especially when "they" have scientific formulas to figure SPL loss at window position + type of speakers and dispersion + room size + position of port to room + room treatment = guy too lazy to walk downstairs or to have a helper

Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-19-2002, 12:15 AM:

When the new PAC manager tells the newspaper that rep movies will be shown from videotape now because "the old projectors will not show the new movies".

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 08-19-2002, 04:20 AM:

When your tech tells you that you need a "reversing gear" for your xenon power supply.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 08-19-2002, 04:24 AM:

Mark G. can remember this one. How about when your tech (Mark G.) is trying to install new sound systems, and your head projectionist (not me) keeps rewiring them overnight for you, stalling completion by days.

I think he is still there too.

Dave

Posted by Martin Dean (Member # 1416) on 08-19-2002, 09:59 AM:

When a venue with no experienced staff, are told that in order to run a 1600W lamp at a decent current they will have to upgrade to three phase in the booth in order to run the replacement rectifier as only three phase rectifiers can handle this load. As the booth had no three phase within 100' it would have been a costly excercise. Luckerly the venue checked other companies and saved a small fortune.

Another venue, when questioning the reliability of their CP-500, were told by somebody from Dolby that 1 in 10 CP-500's were like that and it wasn't their problem. The CP-500 was duly removed and replaced with a second hand CP-200.

------------------
Martin Dean

martinidean@charter.net

Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 08-19-2002, 12:11 PM:

I had a sound head bearing so loud it could be heard in the auditorium, and in the one next door, and both across the hall. It was diagnosed over the phone as ok to run until tomorrow...I'm not sure if that was technically true but nobody in 4 houses plus the operator in the booth could hear much of anything over the noise...

Mike

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 08-19-2002, 01:54 PM:

That the lens turrets always have to change to flat at the end of the show because the scope lenses will bang against the projector when open. Also when your tech comes out to fix a dead left front channel in one auditorium and leaves without LISTENING to see if it's fixed (it isn't), then when you call him to ask if he's coming back to fix it he says no but orders you to have the top masking switch to flat so the (outdated) slides can get "the biggest screen possible", then you come in early the next day and fix the sound problem yourself and no-one thanks you for it!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-19-2002, 09:32 PM:

quote:
How about when your tech cuts the wire to the exhaust fan in your rectifier because it was making noise?

This basically happened to me too. Just after I became an "owner," in 1980, we put new equipment in the booth. The theatre had (and still has) an exhaust fan for the booth mounted on the roof. The technician (same guy from my post above who told me we had to buy the new projector head) did not hook up the roof fan, but instead stuffed the wires up into a vent hole in the booth ceiling.

The new lamphouse had a sensor which would not allow the lamp to light if there was insufficient ventilation. This guy DISABLED THAT SENSOR because he thought the small squirrel-cage fan in the lamphouse was providing enough cooling for the bulb. Of course me being brand new to Xenon, I had no idea he was fulla shit, so we ran that way for about 17 years. We did not go thru an inordinate number of bulbs, so nothing appeared to be wrong and I never thought about it again.

Cut to around 1997 when future Film-Techer John Eickhof visited my booth for the first time. He noticed the lamp was running hot, and then found the disabled sensor. He asked about the roof exhaust, whereupon I said we had one, but it was not hooked up, and he about had a cow.

We investigated, found the wires still stuffed into the booth vent, rigged a makeshift power hookup for the fan (which still worked fine after sitting idle for 15 years) and now the lamp is running great, and a lot cooler.

For anyone who missed my other post above, I will repeat here: The bonehead techician who disabled my lamphouse sensor is now dead, and the company he worked for is now out of business. Good riddance to both.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 08-20-2002, 01:45 PM:

...Not to post questions on Film-Tech about technical problems, ask him first (even if said problems were around for more than a year, giving him plenty of time to catch them beforehand.)
...When you have a screen with both SDDS and Dolby Digital, but the Dolby Digital drops out frequently, and you're running a film that only has a SRD soundtrack, and you email the technician to let him know the Dolby Digital's dropping out and the film only has Dolby Digital, he emails you back "Why not run it in SDDS?"
...To cover the film with splicing tape to keep the foil cues from wearing out!

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 08-20-2002, 05:14 PM:

That aligning the A and B chains isn't part of the installation of a sound system, and is therefore chargeable extra.

That all two projector set-ups change over the sound on the exciter lamps, and that the Proj 2 input on the CP55 is a spare!

I hasten to add that these are things I've come across and put right.

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 08-21-2002, 02:08 AM:

That the muffled & distorted speech coming from the surround speakers is industry standard & while sitting in the centre of the auditorium it creates a discreet track.

After that I found another guy.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 08-21-2002, 01:44 PM:

...not to worry about any problems with the analog sound reproduction, because nobody uses it anymore anyway. (I didn't actually hear this firsthand, but someone I worked with said a tech actually said that to him.)

Posted by Matt Walker (Member # 1378) on 08-22-2002, 12:56 PM:

That he couldn't fix the variac on the payout side of a red-head platter but after looking into it the variace motor in the control box was un-mounted moved away from the variac and a relay was pulled out. At this point speed control was set by hand inside at a speed that wouldn't cause problems. (so he said) I had another relay, put it in and re-mounted the motor 6 months ago and still no problems. why he decided to unhook all this is a question we will never have answered.

( and he has done the radio shack spl meter holding out the port window)

Posted by Brian Tristam Williams (Member # 1235) on 08-22-2002, 04:24 PM:

When you go through an entire night in the booth, watching Star Wars II twice, connecting to two DTS units simultaneously to do a scientific test, verifying that both units creep out of sync by the same amounts in the same places, not to mention catching cold in the booth, only to have the tech tell you that you and your 6 projectionists are obviously not threading the film properly.

------------------
"One man can make a difference."

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-22-2002, 06:46 PM:

This is the one I meant to post in the first place. But I kept forgetting it!

The guy who ran the cables for one of our theatres fancies himself a genuine booth tech. (He's a pretty good electrician.)

Anyway, he tried to argue with me that each movie required a different EQ. He was also known to sneak into the booth and raise fader settings on the surround amps because "they weren't on."

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-22-2002, 07:00 PM:

Actually different movies could use some user-EQ adjustments, but obviously that isn't feasible unless you work at the Northpark 1 and 2 in Dallas. Though I would be pissed off if he was turning up the surround amps. There would be ways to stop him from doing so.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-23-2002, 11:12 PM:

No way, Joe! You are wrong for that and you know it.

I would never re-EQ a theatre simply because it was Friday and a new movie was going to be playing in that room. I'd be EQ-ing just about every screen weekly!

~Manny

"Where is Brad Miller when you need him?"
...actually said by my U.S. technician today.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-24-2002, 12:48 AM:

You don't Re-EQ because it is Friday, you Re-EQ when a particular movie needs it. Say the movie you just opened is mixed waaaay too high in the 3.5-4khz range. Would you subject your audience to aural torture just because "it was mixed that way" or would you fix it for that show and then set it back when that show left?

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 08-24-2002, 02:24 AM:

I would agree with you Joe, and have been tempted to do the same thing myself, at times when I disagreed with the mix as supplied.

Then I begin to ask myself "who the phuck am I go to around fooling with a sound mix?" The director heard the mix for this picture on his sound stage and in his screening room. THAT was the effect he wanted my audiences to hear. Who the hell am I to disagree?

Besides, Manny is right, I don't have the opportunity to change all the auditiorium eq's for every print that gets moved down the line in all our theatres.

Still, part of what makes me want to agree with you was when the distributor of a recent action flick sent out a memo to all theatres that this particular film was to be played a "7" - no argument - this despite the fact that our audience (suburban) pleaded with management to "turn the damn thing down". The complaints fell on deaf ears, (due, no doubt to hearing this picture played at 7). There were several refunds.

End result - I was summoned in to replace a blown high-frequency driver - centre channel.

I understand that these theatres have since reduced their volume to a more comfortable level.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-24-2002, 03:56 AM:

Manny and Rick, if you had've seen a movie at the Northpark in Cinema I, you would not be implying that most movie sound would be destroyed from some individual calibration on an as needed basis. Anyone who has seen a movie there can verify this and EVERY producer and director that screened their movie there always and without doubt RAVED about the sound, and there were plenty of examples. That was a special case theater and to date I have not found another since then that fit the bill. I have also not heard sound anywhere near as godamned good as the sound was in Cinema I at Northpark, hands down, nothing else is even in the same ballpark. (And yes for those with fragile curse-sensitive ears, the sound was so godamned good that I absolutely felt the need to specify that it was that godamned good.)

Joe is not saying that everyone should do it, and especially not in a multiplex. It's just not feasible. Plus, in the wrong hands severe disaster is a distinct possibility! Again though, if you had've heard a movie in there, you would not have posted what you just did. I understand your comments were made "in general" and were not meant to be specific to the Northpark example, but without having heard a movie in cinema I as well as the benefits of fine tuning each individual movie by ear in that particular auditorium, you are speaking out of ignorance.

At this point I might point out the obvious fact that no two sound technicians EVER equalize a theater the same. NEVER. It just doesn't happen. In addition, if a certain tech goes into an auditorium and EQs it, then comes back a month later and starts fresh (say after someone who should not have been jacking with the settings jacked them), even then that tech will not end up with the same EQ that he came up with a month prior. That being a fact, you are not reproducing the sound exactly as it was heard in the mixing stage anyway. There are people who will publicly state against this practice, and for good reason. 99.9% of the time I also back that practice. However the fact of the matter remains that no two theaters will ever sound exactly alike and most importantly, if the customers are walking out of a theater BLOWN AWAY by the sound, they will come back! THAT's what matters.

Under the right circumstances and under the right care, yes it DOES improve the presentation. Will there ever be another example like this? Probably not. So in the end yes I am agreeing with you that EQ should never be touched, but do be careful about the "absolutes" of your post.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-24-2002, 07:03 AM:

Re: Never the same EQ twice.

That is true. This is another reason why I avoid "checking" levels too often. You come back a month later and everything seems different, somehow.

I do B-Chains about once every three months. Sometimes sooner if I know there's a big release about to open (and if the movie will feature a rockin' soundtrack). That's good for these cinemas.

As for subjectivity, Dolby actually recommends this practice (after the instrument-guided procedure). They tell you to go into the room and walk around and use your God-given ears to verify what the machines told you to do.

I just did an EQ last night and I had to return to the booth a few times to tweak and get it just right. I'm working with new test gear and it's quite an adventure making friends with it. I have also chosen a new reel for testing.

And just where is this Northpark theatre?

~Manny.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 08-24-2002, 12:30 PM:

quote:
And just where is this Northpark theatre?

In Heaven now, unfortunately. In life it was in Dallas. There are photos of it in its glory in the Pictures section, and of it in its demise somewhere in the Forums.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-24-2002, 05:01 PM:

I for one son't believe in playing with eq no matter how bad the print sounds. For after years of dealing with art and alternative film makers I have learned they have listened to the print and were happy with it when it went out sounding "THE WAY THEY WANTED THE AUDIENCE TO HEAR IT"

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-24-2002, 05:18 PM:

Interesting debate topic: should the theatre tweak the sound to make it sound "good" or should they attempt to reproduce the track exactly as it was mixed, without regard to actual aural quality?

Personally, I'm on the fence with respect to this issue. On one hand, I'm all in favor of standardization and I believe the filmmakers should have the right to expect the print to sound the same in theatres as it did on the mixing stage. On the other hand, I also realize that customers who are paying $7.00+ to see the film shouldn't be blasted out of the auditorium because the film was poorly mixed and the exhibitor insisted on playing it with the fader set to "7" (for example); customers want "good" sound and deserve the best that the exhibitor can provide, even if it doesn't necessarily sound the same as it did on the mixing stage.

I suppose that there is no "right" answer here, since it's a lose-lose situation as long as there are films with poorly mixed tracks....

Brad--I wish I could have seen and heard the Northpark. Of course, pretty much anything would be better than the crappy Kelmar mono system that I've been working with lately. There's nothing quite like running premiere screenings of films mixed for SR-D playback through a 20-year-old mono system with the director and half the crew in the audience. Oh, and exciter-lamp changeover is awesome, too.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-24-2002, 06:15 PM:

I have found that I do often end up with the same or at least similar EQs when "re-eqing" a room.

As to re-tuning on films...I'll admit I might trim the Bass and Treble controls on a particular film if it so warrants but that is about it.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-24-2002, 09:38 PM:

The adjustments were *usually* quite mild. Commonly a slight turn of 1-2 "bumps" on the course bass/treble controls was all that was needed, other times there was an offending frequency usually related to dialogue sibilance in the recording or action movies...especially swordfights.

The last few years Northpark was opened I ended up installing outboard "user EQs" in the rack. This permitted the actual "house EQ" to stay unaltered (so long as the user EQs were left flat) and any change in the EQ would end up being smooth, unlike when changing on the actual EQ cards where you are not only trying to make a slight cut or boost, but you are affecting the actual smoothness of the response of the room too. The user EQs also permitted slight changes in level settings of roughly +/-3db in either direction. Regarding the master fader, the levels were commonly ran 5-10db over "reference" and we never got complaints. Such levels require careful tuning as each program changes or ear fatigue will definitely result. I worked there for several years and did not receive nor hear of one single complaint the entire time. In fact that is cinema 1 behind me in the picture.

Probably about 25% of the time the user EQs stayed "flat". 50% of the time they had slight modifications. Then the other 25% of the time they were tweeked heavily to make up for a really bad mix. In the end though the Northpark has gone down in local history as being "THE" theater for sound. Maybe it did mess with what was heard in the mixing room. I can tell you that no customer gave a damn about that though. All that matters to the paying customers is if it sounds good. Still though it's all a moot point, as that combination of a 2 screen theater with a top notch sound system and capable operators to tune the room for each program will in all probability never happen again.